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Catholic Teaching

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MrPolo

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the New Testament bears solid witness to at least three writers who knew the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ at least well enough to name the brothers. Given this consistent witness one can reasonably conclude that Mary did not remain a virgin following her marriage to Joseph.

I'm sure you've heard the reason why Catholics do not take the words "brothers" (adelphos) in Scripture to mean literal, Marian-uterine siblings of Jesus. Even if you don't get into the Greek, you can see from Scripture that at least 2 of them are the sons of Mary the wife of Clopas.
 
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JeffTheLearner

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Though many in the Catholic Church may believe this, according to scripture they have it all wrong. Jesus had brothers, and it states so in scripture. Really... Jesus said, "You call ME TEACHER, and Lord, and YOU SAY WELL, FOR SO I AM." If you want to learn anything dealing with Truth, and True doctrines I would consult scripture first, Jesus is THE LIVING WORD. I myself would not go to any Catholic to learn about scripture.
 
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MrPolo

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Jesus had brothers, and it states so in scripture.

It is apparent if you compare Mt. 13:55 with Mark 6:3, Mark 15:40 and John 19:25, you will see that James and Joseph are the sons of Mary the wife of Clopas. Despite that, they are still called Jesus' "brothers" in Mat. 13:55. They are not his fraternal brothers.
redface.gif
 
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JeffTheLearner

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...well MrPolo, it is obvious, that there are "brothers" that receive the message, or "church brothers", and there are brothers spoken of by which the message was not received, which are "brothers", of which the reference was made, "a prophet is not welcome in his home town.” which if you set your heart to understand scripture, this should not even be a controversy. The controversy in my mind, is Denominational Organizations that attempt to view themselves as “infallible”, which is another way of refusing to admit they are wrong, and then turning around with these wrong doctrines, and teaching others those doctrines.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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It is apparent if you compare Mt. 13:55 with Mark 6:3, Mark 15:40 and John 19:25, you will see that James and Joseph are the sons of Mary the wife of Clopas. Despite that, they are still called Jesus' "brothers" in Mat. 13:55. They are not his fraternal brothers.
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Weak.... but just to be kind to you, let's assume it's true.


Now, as you know, there has never been a dogma of "Jesus Had No Sibs." Not in ANY denomination, not at ANY time. Thus, I find the argument moot to doctrine and especially to the Dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.

As we all know, it is possible to have an instance of sexual intimacy without having a child specifically mentioned in the Bible as resulting from such. In fact, as we all know, it's possible to have a lifetime of sex without having a child at all - specifically mentioned in the Bible or not. Thus, trying to defend a nonexistent dogma does nothing to support an existent one.





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MrPolo

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...well MrPolo, it is obvious, that there are "brothers" that receive the message, or "church brothers", and there are brothers spoken of by which the message was not received, which are "brothers", of which the reference was made, "a prophet is not welcome in his home town.” which if you set your heart to understand scripture, this should not even be a controversy. The controversy in my mind, is Denominational Organizations that attempt to view themselves as “infallible”, which is another way of refusing to admit they are wrong, and then turning around with these wrong doctrines, and teaching others those doctrines.

No, the point is Scripture never tells us that Jesus had brothers and sisters born of Mary. That's what you were claiming. But it is an incorrect claim. Josiah, take note.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Josiah, take note of what the dialogue here is.

The opening post, to refresh your memory:


Does the Catholic Church teach that Mary is a Perpetual Virgin given birth to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?
MrPolo, is it your position that if Jesus had no siblings mentioned in the Bible, THEREFORE it is a dogmatic fact that Mary could not have had a single instance of marital intimacy? If so, could you share your biological substantiation for that? If not, then what does your belief that Jesus had no sibs mentioned in the Bible have to do with the topic of this thread or any dogma of any denomination and thus with theology (what we are to discuss here)?




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MrPolo

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The opening post, to refresh your memory:[/SIZ
I was responding to a related comment by the good JefftheLearner.

vy]MrPolo, is it your position that if Jesus had no siblings mentioned in the Bible, THEREFORE it is a dogmatic fact that Mary could not have had a single instance of marital intimacy?E]

No, that is not the foundation for the teaching of Mary's perpetual virginity. But obviously her having no kids would be characteristic of her being a perpetual virgin. But no one is arguing that if we are not told that someone in Scripture has no kids that we automatically define them as a perpetual virgin.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I'm sure you've heard the reason why Catholics do not take the words "brothers" (adelphos) in Scripture to mean literal, Marian-uterine siblings of Jesus. Even if you don't get into the Greek, you can see from Scripture that at least 2 of them are the sons of Mary the wife of Clopas.

My name is David, but, oddly enough, my father was not named Jesse. My brother's name is John and, oddly enough, our father was not Zecharias. The fact that many individuals in the Bible (e.g. Mary or James) share the same name seems to have escaped your notice. The list of Christ's brothers does indeed include two of the names of the sons of Mary, the wife of Clopas. That hardly makes them the same individuals. I much prefer to understand the five passages as translated into plain English in all known translations.

Could you explain to us how it is that all the faithful Catholic translators consistently translate adelphos as being brothers and sisters - without either translating them as cousins or even providing footnotes to explain their theological error?
 
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wildboar

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MamaZ

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My name is David, but, oddly enough, my father was not named Jesse. My brother's name is John and, oddly enough, our father was not Zecharias. The fact that many individuals in the Bible (e.g. Mary or James) share the same name seems to have escaped your notice. The list of Christ's brothers does indeed include two of the names of the sons of Mary, the wife of Clopas. That hardly makes them the same individuals. I much prefer to understand the five passages as translated into plain English in all known translations.

Could you explain to us how it is that all the faithful Catholic translators consistently translate adelphos as being brothers and sisters - without either translating them as cousins or even providing footnotes to explain their theological error?
Bump.. I was wondering if this would be answered..
 
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papist1

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Does the Catholic Church teach that Mary is a Perpetual Virgin given birth to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?


All of the reformers taught and agreed on this also, so it is really a non issue.

Did you want to oppose the wisdom of the reformers who invented sola scriptura so that your idea of the church could exist this past 500 years?

peace, papist
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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All of the reformers taught and agreed on this also, so it is really a non issue.

Did you want to oppose the wisdom of the reformers who invented sola scriptura so that your idea of the church could exist this past 500 years?

peace, papist


Not quite correct....


Luther personally embraced the Perpetual Virginity of Mary as personal pious opinion - as many Lutherans still do. He never taught it as dogma and never had any issues with those who disagreed with him on this point, there has never been a documented case of a person being excommunicated from any Lutheran congregation because they did not embrace as dogmatic fact the PERPETUAL virginity of Mary.

As you know, Luther did not "invent" the praxis of Sola Scriptura. Scripture has been regarded as normative since the very first Scriptures appeared some 3,500 years ago - some time before Luther was even born.



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Anoetos

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First I want to say that I am one of the Lutherans who happens to believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. I do not believe it because Luther believed it.

I believe it for other reasons which are not pertinent to this discussion.

I will say that the historicity of the doctrine does play some part in my acceptance of it, but finally, I believe it for reasons of personal conviction.

This happens to be an EXCELLENT example of a pious opinion or doctrine which has been raised to the level of dogma by certain churches and then used to bind free Christian consciences to something beyond the plain Word of God.

This is a serious violation of our liberty in Christ.

With this in mind ISTM that the proponents of the belief that this is in fact a dogma, to be required for salvation, bear the burden of proof in this argument. They themselves have set the criteria beginning with the assumption that it is a belief that has been held always and everywhere, in every generation.

I think we're still waiting for substantiation.
 
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MamaZ

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Well in scripture we see those who walked closely with Jesus naming his brothers and telling us about his sisters and the word in the greek shows us that Jesus did indeed have brothers and sisters of the flesh also. We also see that Joseph took Mary as his wife. He was already engaged to her before Christ was conceived. We do not see in the scriptures that Joseph was ever married before. This is an assumption based on unbiblical sources. We also see in the scriptures that Joseph kept Mary a virgin until Christ was born so this brings us to the conclusion that after Jesus was born she was not kept a virgin. So therefore all these other beliefs extend around that such as well they were Jesus cousins.. Which this is not the word used.. Or they were Josephs before he was married to Mary.. So to me this is like a spider weaving its web to catch the fly..
 
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papist1

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Not quite correct....


Luther personally embraced the Perpetual Virginity of Mary as personal pious opinion - as many Lutherans still do. He never taught it as dogma and never had any issues with those who disagreed with him on this point, there has never been a documented case of a person being excommunicated from any Lutheran congregation because they did not embrace as dogmatic fact the PERPETUAL virginity of Mary.

As you know, Luther did not "invent" the praxis of Sola Scriptura. Scripture has been regarded as normative since the very first Scriptures appeared some 3,500 years ago - some time before Luther was even born.


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So sola scriptura was preached by everyone previous to luther? Show me all of those in the Christian church previous to Luther preaching it.

I find it odd, that almost from the moment it became invented by Luther, that chaos and division arose on unprecedented levels, mostly out of ego for who was right and wrong concerning interpretation, and each wanting theirs to be correct. 30k+ divisions later, we see those fruits in not even 500 years of it.

You see, Jesus gave us a magesterium, who were authritative, legislative and whom the Holy Spirit guided with the voice of Christ on doctrinal matters. He did not tell them to write a book, hand it out and then watch the fun begin.

peace, papist
 
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papist1

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Well, the cousin idea doesn't really work.

There is a perfectly good Greek word for cousin (ἀνεψιός) and it's used in the Bible, see Col. 4:10

Luke, a Greek speaker from youth would certainly have known this word and yet, he does not use it to describe Jesus' "Brothers".[/quote]


Fortunately, it is not the greek we are speaking about.

Because neither Hebrew nor Aramaic (the language spoken by Christ and his disciples) had a special word meaning "cousin," speakers of those languages could use either the word for "brother" or a circumlocution, such as "the son of my uncle." But circumlocutions are clumsy, so the Jews often used "brother."

The writers of the New Testament were brought up using the Aramaic equivalent of "brothers" to mean both cousins and sons of the same father—plus other relatives and even non-relatives. When they wrote in Greek, they did the same thing the translators of the Septuagint did. (The Septuagint was the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible; it was translated by Hellenistic Jews a century or two before Christ’s birth and was the version of the Bible from which most of the Old Testament quotations found in the New Testament are taken.)

In the Septuagint the Hebrew word that includes both brothers and cousins was translated as adelphos, which in Greek usually has the narrow meaning that the English "brother" has. Unlike Hebrew or Aramaic, Greek has a separate word for cousin, anepsios, but the translators of the Septuagint used adelphos, even for true cousins.

You might say they transliterated instead of translated, importing the Jewish idiom into the Greek Bible. They took an exact equivalent of the Hebrew word for "brother" and did not use adelphos in one place (for sons of the same parents), and anepsios in another (for cousins). This same usage was employed by the writers of the New Testament and passed into English translations of the Bible. To determine what "brethren" or "brother" or "sister" means in any one verse, we have to look at the context. When we do that, we see that insuperable problems arise if we assume that Mary had children other than Jesus.

When the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and told her that she would conceive a son, she asked, "How can this be since I have no relations with a man?" (Luke 1:34). From the Church’s earliest days, as the Fathers interpreted this Bible passage, Mary’s question was taken to mean that she had made a vow of lifelong virginity, even in marriage. (This was not common, but neither was it unheard of.) If she had not taken such a vow, the question would make no sense.

Mary knew how babies are made (otherwise she wouldn’t have asked the question she did). If she had anticipated having children in the normal way and did not intend to maintain a vow of virginity, she would hardly have to ask "how" she was to have a child, since conceiving a child in the "normal" way would be expected by a newlywed wife. Her question makes sense only if there was an apparent (but not a real) conflict between keeping a vow of virginity and acceding to the angel’s request. A careful look at the New Testament shows that Mary kept her vow of virginity and never had any children other than Jesus.

When Jesus was found in the Temple at age twelve, the context suggests that he was the only son of Mary and Joseph. There is no hint in this episode of any other children in the family (Luke 2:41–51). Jesus grew up in Nazareth, and the people of Nazareth referred to him as "the son of Mary" (Mark 6:3), not as "a son of Mary." In fact, others in the Gospels are never referred to as Mary’s sons, not even when they are called Jesus’ "brethren." If they were in fact her sons, this would be strange usage.

Also, the attitude taken by the "brethren of the Lord" implies they are his elders. In ancient and, particularly, in Eastern societies (remember, Palestine is in Asia), older sons gave advice to younger, but younger seldom gave advice to older—it was considered disrespectful to do so. But we find Jesus’ "brethren" saying to him that Galilee was no place for him and that he should go to Judea so he could make a name for himself (John 7:3–4).

Another time, they sought to restrain him for his own benefit: "And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for people were saying, ‘He is beside himself’" (Mark 3:21). This kind of behavior could make sense for ancient Jews only if the "brethren" were older than Jesus, but that alone eliminates them as his biological brothers, since Jesus was Mary’s "first-born" son (Luke 2:7).

Consider what happened at the foot of the cross. When he was dying, Jesus entrusted his mother to the apostle John (John 19:26–27). The Gospels mention four of his "brethren": James, Joseph, Simon, and Jude. It is hard to imagine why Jesus would have disregarded family ties and made this provision for his mother if these four were also her sons.



peace, papist
 
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Anoetos

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Luke wrote in Greek, not in Hebrew or Aramaic.

It makes no sense to assume that Luke would attempt to transliterate a semitic usage, without explanation, for a readership to whom this usage would have been alien.

This is why Paul, whose familiarity with Greek would have lagged behind that of Luke and who in any case used an amanuensis, use the word anepsios and not adelphos in his letter to the church at Colossae to describe Mark as he related to Barnabas.

Much is made of the dearth of semitic words to describe family relations, true or not, it has no pertinence to the Gospel of Luke which, again, was written by a speaker of Greek for a reading audience made up of people from a Greek linguistic, cultural and idiomatic milieu.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Josiah said:
Not quite correct....


Luther personally embraced the Perpetual Virginity of Mary as personal pious opinion - as many Lutherans still do. He never taught it as dogma and never had any issues with those who disagreed with him on this point, there has never been a documented case of a person being excommunicated from any Lutheran congregation because they did not embrace as dogmatic fact the PERPETUAL virginity of Mary.

As you know, Luther did not "invent" the praxis of Sola Scriptura. Scripture has been regarded as normative since the very first Scriptures appeared some 3,500 years ago - some time before Luther was even born.
So sola scriptura was preached by everyone previous to luther? Show me all of those in the Christian church previous to Luther preaching it.

I'm not sure how any can "preach" a practice, but when Moses came down from the Mountain, that Scripture was the norma normans in morality. There is no record of anyone saying, "Let us regard the Roman Catholic Church and the Infallible Pope as the Rule in matters of morality."

I can show you MANY places were Scripture was held as the Rule LONG before anyone used the Roman Catholic Church for such. Jesus did some 50 times.



You see, Jesus gave us a magesterium

Jesus never so much as even MENTIONED the Roman Catholic Church.
For anything. About anything.

He did reference Scripture and embraced such as normative, 50 + times.




He did not tell them to write a book, hand it out and then watch the fun begin.
He told no one or no thing to alone declare self alone as authoritative, or to alone declare self alone as the sole interpreter, or to alone declare self alone as the infallible.... anything. And Jesus never told anyone to start the RCC or LDS or any other denomination, and Jesus never once mentioned the RCC or the Bishop of Rome. So much for the claims of the RCC alone for the RCC alone.


mostly out of ego for who was right and wrong concerning interpretation.


I agree, but take that up with the RCC and LDS. They are the only two denominations known to me that alone claim that self alone is the sole infallible/unaccountable interpreter and thus alone claim that self alone is correct because each alone claims for each alone that each alone is.

And yes, we all know that the RCC alone officially and currently agrees with the RCC alone in all matters that the RCC alone regards as good for the RCC to agree with itself about: it has a unity of ONE - itself with itself. So what? Heck, I usually agree with myself, too (officially and currently). And every other denomination also officially and currantly agrees with itself - EXACTLY as the RCC does. So what?


Now, back to the DOGMA of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary which insists as the highest level of importance and certainty that Mary never had sex ever.






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