Catholic? Jewish?

[Hoonbaba]

Ok that sounds good enough. I agree that the foudation is Christ, but how did you come to know Christ...was it not through the scriptures?

Well, I don't think it's required that we know Christ through the scriptures as in the 'nonbiblical' example I've shown. But I personally came to know Christ through the scriptures

Ok we know that the Scripture was that of the Jews, becuase that's all the scripture he had....would this mean that the sacred traditions were also of Jewish decent, or no?

Well, we know that the Jews did have an oral tradition. I think there's definitely a connection. Some often argue that the these same 'traditions of men' are no different from Sacred Tradition, but I won't get into that.

I still find it strange to figure out what is or isn't Sacred Tradition. Then again, I still wonder why Enoch wasn't part of scripture, and why books like Esther are in the bible...

-Jason

 

[tigersnare]

Well, I don't think it's required that we know Christ through the scriptures as in the 'nonbiblical' example I've shown. But I personally came to know Christ through the scriptures

As did I. I guess now it all comes back to the passing on of the apostleship. If it were truely passed down, than only memebers of the Catholic Mag. could present Christ to people without using scriptures. If it were not, everyone comes to know Christ through the scriptures or they don't come to know Christ. What do you think?

Well, we know that the Jews did have an oral tradition. I think there's definitely a connection. Some often argue that the these same 'traditions of men' are no different from Sacred Tradition, but I won't get into that.

I still find it strange to figure out what is or isn't Sacred Tradition. Then again, I still wonder why Enoch wasn't part of scripture, and why books like Esther are in the bible...

-Jason

Indeed, I'm trying to figure this out also.

 

[ps139]

I should have made it clearer what I mean by establish using a couple definitions:

3 a : to make firm or stable
5 a : to put on a firm basis b : to put into a favorable position c : to gain full recognition or acceptance of

I chose to use these meanings for establish when refering to Paul and his establishment of the church. I feel like Paul first founded the churches and then later "established" them with his epistles, esp based on the content and the fundemental problems he was having to address, because that content leads me to belive the churches weren't exactly firm and stable.

Apostolic Tradition was just as instrumental in "Establishing" these congregations.

Ok traditions:
2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction

Ok from one generation to another, from Paul to new Christians.

I guess I would have to ask, since Paul was a Jews Jew, what traditions did he hand down from his generation?

I understand it differently. Christ personally taught Paul. It is not as if Paul was handing down ancient traditions...To US they are ancient traditions, but to Paul it was what he had recently received from Christ. Apostolic Tradition is truths which were not written down in Scripture, e.g. 2 Thess 2:15

 

[tigersnare]

I understand it differently. Christ personally taught Paul. It is not as if Paul was handing down ancient traditions...To US they are ancient traditions, but to Paul it was what he had recently received from Christ. Apostolic Tradition is truths which were not written down in Scripture, e.g. 2 Thess 2:15

Hmmm.....looks like I need to go study "apostolic traditions" thanks for the insight Bill, it's been a pleasure.

 

[pcwilkins]

Jesus Christ. The Bible and Sacred Tradition are our tools.

The bible is the Word of God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God.

Christ's church rests on nothing but Christ. Salvation is by God-given faith in Him, and by nothing else.

PCW

 

[Bastoune]

The bible is the Word of God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God.

Christ's church rests on nothing but Christ. Salvation is by God-given faith in Him, and by nothing else.

PCW

So Jesus Christ is the Bible?!?

How did the Church survive without a NT until the end of the first Century or why did the disciples wait 20 years or more before they wrote anything? It's because they were out PREACHING the Gospel?

James 2:14-26

 

[KennySe]

Apostolic Tradition was just as instrumental in "Establishing" these congregations.

Exactly.

Q: "When did Apostolic Tradition begin?"
A: "With the Apostles."

Christ personally taught Paul. It is not as if Paul was handing down ancient traditions...To US they are ancient traditions, but to Paul it was what he had recently received from Christ.

Exactly again.

And we see that wherein Paul wrote to the Corinthians the first time, having previosly been in that city:

1 Corinthians:15:3 (Latin Vulgate)
tradidi enim vobis in primis quod et accepi quoniam Christus mortuus est pro peccatis nostris secundum scripturas

1 Corinthians 15:3 (NAB)
For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures;​

 

[Michelina]

I came to know Christ thru the Church, her liturgy, her teachings, her people, esp. the Saints, long before I got into the SS.

 

[Michelina]

The only person who ever established a Church is Jesus. The apostles spread the word and incorporated people into the One Church in various places. These 'branch offices' were called 'the Church at Corinth', 'the Church in x', etc. The terminology is not always precise. But Jesus established One Church only.

Tiger, only Jesus had the power to establish a Church and He wanted it to be united. The SScriptures are a gift from God to the Church, not the basis of anything. They are not a complete, organized constitutional document but ad hoc answers to questions, exhortations and reminders about the Faith which the people had acquired by hearing.

Surely, it is clear that the Church didn't come from SS. There is so much that the SS don't tell us. Without the living tradition embodied in the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, we wouldn't have what Jesus died to give us.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Once again, give me a slap on the wrist when I deserve it

Hi Preston08

You know, there are so many misconcpetions about Catholicism out there, it is amazing . . to figure it out can sometimes seem like you are walking through a maze . . . the 7 books that the Catholics "added" are one of those misconceptions, and I am glad you see that we didn't do that, that we have been using the same books from the original Christian canons in the Early Church . . so one misconception down, one wrong turn avoided eh?

No need to blush . .all of us converts to Catholicism have had the same misconceptions! (I am coming into the Catholic Church this Easter after 30 years being a Protestant!)

But I have thought of catholicism as satanic. This may sound like a bit much, but if you think about it... satan wants to confuse people and send them off track. Instead of comming in the form of a ridiculous religion, he comes in the form of a religion that is similar to Christianity, only changed. This way even people looking to worship Jesus can miss the mark.

Do you know what I mean?

Now your talking! You better believe I know what you are saying!

This is probably the greatest fear a protestant can have about the Catholic Church . .

But think about it . .

. . . . if the Catholic Church were true, would this not be just like Satan to cause such fear about it? Would this not be the PERFECT way to keep people away from the fullness of truth to be found in it?

Is it really satanic?

Well, I can tell you that I face the exact same fear . . I have not shared this much on this board, but way before I was ready to come into the Catholic Church, I was trying to overcome hurdles . .some huge . .and one of them was the Hail Mary . . my reaction after 30 years of Protestant conditioning, much of it fundamentalist somewhat in nature, was that the Hail Mary was Satanic . . so much so that if I heard it on the radio, I turned it off . . I was afraid to even listen to it being said . . . but something kept prompting me to turn it back on . .. it took many, many months of listening, reading, learning and then finally praying about this one prayer . . the night I prayed specifically about this prayer, was the night that God delivered me of many of my fears . . . The Hail Mary was playing on the radio . . and I asked God . . "God, is this really you? Is this really of you?" And the answer I received was so swift, so strong so full, there could never be a doubt in my mind again . .

His presence FILLED the car . . in a way that only happens when something very big is happening in my life spiritually . . andn He made it real for me . .


There is nothing Satanic about the Catholic Church . . there is a lot of bad protestant propaganda out there written by people who have had agenda's against the Catholic Church, axes to grind with the Catholic Church, and when held up to close scrutiny under the light, they melt away . .

Many of us converts have dealt with this . . be careful of the sources you turn to for information about Catholicism . . there are a lot of lies that have been circulating out there for a long time. . they are so persistant that people just accept them as true . .

If you are really willing to learn the truth, you have a woderous adventure ahead of you . . you will never, ever be disappointed that you started it . .and if you finish it, you will be absolutely amazed!

We are here to answer questions . . so fire away . . there is nothing you could ask that we have not already heard and investigated for ourselves . . so don't be shy!

Don't catholics give the pope more authority than the Bible? The pope gets the last say, over the Bible? This is wrong!!

Correct me if I am wrong please.

No . .Catholics do not give the pope more authority than the bible . . the Pope cannot teach contrary to the bible . . we believe Jesus when He said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church . . and we also believe Jesus when He said He gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom . . which represent authority . . Because of all this, we believe the Holy Spirit protects the Pope from declaring a false teaching which all Catholics would be held to believe . .

The issues you raised here are those of authority in the Church and Papal Infallibility which are whole discussions in and of themselves . .

But the question that has to be asked and answered is, whose interpretation of the bible are you going to go with? The Pope has never taught against the word of God . . but what he has taught does not line up with how SOME INTERPRET the bible . . . . . so, the question then becomes (in 2 parts)

1. who is interpreting the scriprures correctly, and
2. how do you know?
​

Well, I have found the only way to really know this is to go back as far as you can go to the beginnings of the Church and see how the Christians in the first few centuries understood their faith, practiced their faith, believed their faith, and lived theif faith . .

They were willing to die for their faith . . the KNEW what they believed and WHY!

So, how does what we believe line up with what they believed and taught and practiced? How well does what you believe live up with what they believed, taught and practiced?

This is how I began my search for the turth . . and it led me to the Catholic Church about 3 years later . ..

I hope you will make the same journey . . but I hope it won't take you as long as it did me!


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Ok that sounds good enough. I agree that the foudation is Christ, but how did you come to know Christ...was it not through the scriptures?

hi tigarsnare . . maybe this will help . . not everyone comes to know Jesus as Lord and Savior through someone's preaching, or through scripture or any agency of man . .

I came to know Jesus as my Lord and Savior by God directly revealing my sins to me, giving me the grace to have true and complete repentence . . this was as real to me as anything I see, taste, hear, touch, smell . . it was vividly real . . I saw the spots that sin made on my soul . . I saw them presented to me 1 by 1 or a couple at a time . . I experienced deep sorrow and contrition for every single one of them . .this went on for hours . . I fell after weeping and sobbing for hours . . when I woke up in the morning, I could see my soul .. it was clean .. completely clean and white as snow . . I had knowledge I had never had before .. I saw the lies I had believed just a few days before . . I saw the truth, the word of God came alive and I understood it for the first time . . but my conversion happened between me and God . .only . . no one else ..

God does not need the bible, or the scriptures to reach one . .

Ok we know that the Scripture was that of the Jews, becuase that's all the scripture he had....would this mean that the sacred traditions were also of Jewish decent, or no?

the Jews had their own sacred tradition . . which undoubtedly helped form a basis of Christian Tradition . .that does not mean they were one and the same . .

but take the Seat of Peter . . The Jewish Sacred Tradition had the Seat of Moses . . which Christ upheld and the authority that went with it . . Even though there is no Old Testament Scripture to the effect that there is even such a thing as the Seat of Moses . . Jesus tells the people to obey the Scribes and Pharisees because they sit in the Moes' Seat . . Jesus validated the Jewish Sacred Tradition . . The same way, Catholics have the Chair of Peter . . through Sacred Tradition .


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Paul did not use the epistles to establish churches. He wrote them to already existing congregations.

I wanted to elaborate on this as well . .

Paul did not write the epsitles to establish the churches . . they wre already established .. but he wrote them to CORRECT ERROR in many instances!

To Correct Error in theology, doctrine, practice, and living, to give instruction in specific situations, or to give instruction to specific individuals . . They in no way contain all that is needed to live and practice the Christian faith . . They are letters written each for a particular pupose . .

The New Testament does not have the equivilant of the Old Testament's first 5 Books that laid down detailed instruction of worship, faith, and life . . there is nothing in the New Testament like this . .

All this, for the Christian, was handed down through Sacred Tradition . .


Peace in Him!

 

[preston08]

I'm going to say this in my own words...

I think papal infalability is friggin ridiculous!

If I am understanding what it means, it makes no sense to me.

I am under the impression that it means the pope CANNOT be wrong about any doctrinal debates.

How can this be so? The pope is only a sinner among us... he has to be wrong sometimes.

Can somone explain?

 

[Christy4Christ]

No, Papal infalibility applies in matters of faith...

 

[artnalex]

I'm going to say this in my own words...

I think papal infalability is friggin ridiculous!

If I am understanding what it means, it makes no sense to me.

I am under the impression that it means the pope CANNOT be wrong about any doctrinal debates.

How can this be so? The pope is only a sinner among us... he has to be wrong sometimes.

Can somone explain?

Preston,
if papal infallibility is ridiculous then why even read the Bible? You could be wrong too, right? In fact, aren't your thoughts and beliefs shaped by those around you? Aren't you relying on someone to be your "pope", if not your minister, then yourself, right? And you a sinner right? So why trust yourself, especially when you are only 16 years old?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Preston,
what type of studying have you done outside of the Bible? Have you ever wondered when the Bible was put together, and who did it?

Before you rush to judgement, perhaps you need to study a bit.

So, first question to you is "when was the Bible created"? (I'll give you a hint: It was in the 300's AD).

Second question: How did people praise, and get to know, the Lord without the Bible for all of those years?

 

[Dark_Lite]

The bible is the Word of God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God.

Christ's church rests on nothing but Christ. Salvation is by God-given faith in Him, and by nothing else.

PCW

Heh.

Anyway... why'd you bump this 3 month old thread?

 

[preston08]

Preston,
if papal infallibility is ridiculous then why even read the Bible? You could be wrong too, right? In fact, aren't your thoughts and beliefs shaped by those around you? Aren't you relying on someone to be your "pope", if not your minister, then yourself, right? And you a sinner right? So why trust yourself, especially when you are only 16 years old?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Preston,
what type of studying have you done outside of the Bible? Have you ever wondered when the Bible was put together, and who did it?

Before you rush to judgement, perhaps you need to study a bit.

So, first question to you is "when was the Bible created"? (I'll give you a hint: It was in the 300's AD).

Second question: How did people praise, and get to know, the Lord without the Bible for all of those years?

I rely on others opinions, but certainly to not assume they are always correct. That is the difference.

No "Pope" can have perfect doctrine. He may have very good doctrine, but people should only use him as a resource..not a FINAL belief.

And don't play the "you're only 16" card; I know when things aren't right... and papal infalability isn't right.

I agree with using a pope as an opinion, but you should not blindly follow what he says. You should think for yourself, challenge everything he says with the Bible, and ask God to reveal his word to you.

 

[Michelina]

Hey, preston, don't you think it's ridiculous that all those idiots believe the Bible is the word of God. It's written by fallible men. There is no such thing as "guidance from the Holy Spirit" who -now that we've eliminated the Bible- might not even exist.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I'm going to say this in my own words...

I think papal infalability is friggin ridiculous!

If I am understanding what it means, it makes no sense to me.

I am under the impression that it means the pope CANNOT be wrong about any doctrinal debates.

How can this be so? The pope is only a sinner among us... he has to be wrong sometimes.

Can somone explain?

Well, welcome to the club! I was there once too!

It does not meant hat the Pope can't e wrong about any doctrinal debates . . he is a person just like we are, and fallible in and of himself just like you and I are. )

Papal infallibility only means that when the Pope is speaking for the exrpess purpose of declaring something that all faithful are to believe as a matter of faith, that we believe the Holy Spirit is protecting Him from declaring error . .

We believe it is for the PROTECTION of the faith, not to introduce new and novel dogmas . . .

It is not that we put our trust in a man . . we don't . . we put our trust in GOD to preserve him from declaring error in this manner . .


Papal Infallibility does not mean that the person, the pope is an infallible human being . . . but by the very office he holds, the Holy Spirit protects him and through him protects the Church from departing into error in matters of faith and morals in this very specific and limited way . .


Does this help?


Peace in Him!

 

[Filia Mariae]

Preston,

I think you seriously misunderstand what the phrase "papal infallibility" means.

Please try reading "Papal Infallibility" and let us know what you don't understand or object to after you've read. It's a pretty short read.