Catholic House Democrats prepare to send bishops 'statement of principles' on Communion vote

[chevyontheriver]

Hmm...how would this work out?

Biden put VP Harris in charge of immigration policy.

If he chose, he could put Harris in charge of fiscal decisions regarding Planned Parenthood or compassionate aid to foreign countries.

He could please the ideologically conservative bishops. Harris is Hindu and married to a Jewish man, impervious to the threats of single issue clerics.

Since Biden is clearly a man of integrity with one tragic flaw, as well as having many pressing responsibilities to handle on a daily basis, we can rest assured that if he puts it in Harris' hands it will be part of their division of power.

Most recent presidents have had strong partnerships with their VP's and have given them many responsibilities.

Since Harry Truman noted ‘the buck stops here’ such a dodge doesn’t really work.

 

[hedrick]

Since Harry Truman noted ‘the buck stops here’ such a dodge doesn’t really work.

On abortion it's not so clear that the buck stops at the president.

 

[chevyontheriver]

On abortion it's not so clear that the buck stops at the president.

Point was the president cannot just say it’s the responsibility of the VP and get a moral pass on it.

 

[hedrick]

Has anyone given thought to whether the Supreme Court's support of LGBT issues should get treatment similar to abortion? Unlike Biden, the Supreme Court actually makes enforceable decisions on these matters. Also, how about people who vote for Democrats? No, I don't want to see the Church do this. But I also think a political attack aimed specifically at Biden will be pretty obvious, and is likely to widen the gap between bishops and lay people.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Has anyone given thought to whether the Supreme Court's support of LGBT issues should get treatment similar to abortion? Unlike Biden, the Supreme Court actually makes enforceable decisions on these matters. Also, how about people who vote for Democrats? No, I don't want to see the Church do this. But I also think a political attack aimed specifically at Biden will be pretty obvious, and is likely to widen the gap between bishops and lay people.

EVERY Catholic president since the new code of canon law came into effect in 1983 has been challenged in this way. Oh, wait. Biden is the only Catholic president since then. Abortion was not an issue with the only other Catholic president. If Biden were an Episcopalian this would be a non-issue, because he would be a good Episcopalian. As it is he still says he is a Catholic. This would become a non-issue if he switched and became an Episcopalian. While he maintains he is Catholic it simply is an issue. But it's an issue for all of those politicians who similarly claim to be Catholic and enable abortion. It has been so for years. It's just that it probably hasn't been on the radar of most who aren't Catholic. So it's not 'aimed specifically at Biden' but has been hightened because Biden is the first pro-abortion Catholic president ever and the most pro-abortion president ever.

As to the divide between bishops and lay people, it is growing leaps and bounds over this. Much of that is from lay Catholics who want the bishops to act already on something that seems obvious vs a minority of bishops like cardinal Cupich who want the whole thing silenced. That divide is prominent and the reputation of all bishops is in the balance because of it. It also affects the reputation of pope Francis because bishops like cardinal Cupich are seen as this pope's men in the USA.

 

[East of Eden]

Question to the ideological bishops:

Could it be the ideological bishops are the ones ignoring the travesty of public figures promoting perversion and the mass murder of the unborn taking communion?

 

[East of Eden]

And TBT with a huge platform and 50 recalcitrant Republican Senators led by a world-class obstructionist,

LOL, like Pelosi and Schumer weren't obstructionists under our last POTUS?

 

[parousia70]

I won't demonize anyone, only point out the inconsistency.

You and me both, friend.

Still, can you explain to me the rationale for Biden wanted to remove the Hyde amendment and forcing you to pay for it?

From a Strictly Catholic perspective I'd venture a guess that Biden views reproductive freedom as Catholic social justice value in that he recognizes that religiously-based obstructions to abortions, contraceptive access and comprehensive health care disproportionately affect people of color, the poor and the vulnerable.

I likewise expect Biden takes the position that sexual and reproductive ethics that are based on justice, reflect a commitment to a person’s well-being and respect and affirm the capacity of all people to make moral decisions about their lives, which upholds and affirms the Church's teaching that each person's conscience is to be recognized and upheld as the final arbiter in all individual moral decision making.

My bet is that Biden holds that all people ought to be trusted to make moral decisions about their lives, the poor and vulnerable ought not be disproportionately harmed by ideological battles over reproductive rights, policymakers and advocates ought to be free to support policies that create a more just and compassionate society and life-saving health interventions should not be blocked by sectarian interests.

As far as forcing me to pay for it, I'm not sure how it rises above everything else I don' t like paying for but am forced to anyway...I certainly don't like being forced to pay for military hardware that gets used to kill civilians, But I pay it.

Is it your position that I am morally responsible for each Drone strike on a hospital or school that kills civilians because I was forced to purchase the drone, pay for the training to use the drone, and pay for the fuel that delivered the drone to it's target?

Are you likewise morally responsible for the taking of that innocent life because you were forced to fund it?

 

[East of Eden]

You and me both, friend.


From a Strictly Catholic perspective I'd venture a guess that Biden views reproductive freedom as Catholic social justice value in that he recognizes that religiously-based obstructions to abortions, contraceptive access and comprehensive health care disproportionately affect people of color, the poor and the vulnerable.

I likewise expect Biden takes the position that sexual and reproductive ethics that are based on justice, reflect a commitment to a person’s well-being and respect and affirm the capacity of all people to make moral decisions about their lives, which upholds and affirms the Church's teaching that each person's conscience is to be recognized and upheld as the final arbiter in all individual moral decision making.

My bet is that Biden holds that all people ought to be trusted to make moral decisions about their lives,

Some had that attitude during slavery days, "I'm personally opposed to slavery, but........"

Is it your position that I am morally responsible for each Drone strike on a hospital or school that kills civilians because I was forced to purchase the drone, pay for the training to use the drone, and pay for the fuel that delivered the drone to it's target?

Are you likewise morally responsible for the taking of that innocent life because you were forced to fund it?

Those civilian drone victims weren't killed intentionally, as in abortion.

 

[parousia70]

Those civilian drone victims weren't killed intentionally

That is by no means an established fact, and evidence points to the opposite being true.
U.S. Drones Kill More Than 30 in Yemen; School Targeted in One Attack - The New American

 

[parousia70]

Some had that attitude during slavery days

So "some had the attitude" that "Slavery was Catholic social justice value and that opposition to Slavery disproportionately affect people of color, the poor and the vulnerable"

Got a link?

 

[Fantine]

EVERY

As to the divide between bishops and lay people, it is growing leaps and bounds over this. Much of that is from lay Catholics who want the bishops to act already on something that seems obvious vs a minority of bishops like cardinal Cupich who want the whole thing silenced.

Cardinals Cupich, Gregory, Tobin AND Pope Francis (the Vatican). Six active American Cardinals, evenly divided (I am assuming..,the others are Dolan, O'Malley, and DiNardo. Actually, in 2016 Cardinal Dolan said he did not believe in withholding the Eucharist from political leaders, so he may agree with the first three.)

Oh, how I wish that the lay Catholics to whom censuring Biden, Pelosi and others "seems obvious" would have the same prescience, awareness, and mindfulness of political leaders' other positions. I wish that they would see them holistically.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Cardinals Cupich, Gregory, Tobin AND Pope Francis (the Vatican). Six active American Cardinals, evenly divided (I am assuming..,the others are Dolan, O'Malley, and DiNardo. Actually, in 2016 Cardinal Dolan said he did not believe in withholding the Eucharist from political leaders, so he may agree with the first three.)

Oh, how I wish that the lay Catholics to whom censuring Biden, Pelosi and others "seems obvious" would have the same prescience, awareness, and mindfulness of political leaders' other positions. I wish that they would see them holistically.

Cardinal Dolan was on the list of 66 signers of the cardinal Gregory letter. Except he said he never actually signed such a letter. Two other bishops similarly got themselves off the list of signers.

I wish Catholics would be holistic and not bend over backwards for abortion. It endangers their souls. It makes for bad examples of people who claim to be Catholic but when it comes to faith and morals they believe something else. It doesn’t take much prescience to know something is wrong when Nancy Pelosi lectures her bishop on when life begins and how abortion is a moral choice. Such people should have the honesty to avoid the Eucharist without even having to be told. Most of the bishops would agree. That appointees of pope Francis have trouble with that indicates that the trouble might be with who appointed them.

 

[East of Eden]

That is by no means an established fact, and evidence points to the opposite being true.
U.S. Drones Kill More Than 30 in Yemen; School Targeted in One Attack - The New American

In Islamic societies, it is very difficult to distinguish between civilians and soldiers, they aren't exactly abiding by the Geneva Conventions. Islamic militants are often embedded in a wider circle of sympathetic civilians.

What gets me is Obama opposed waterboarding, which is a glorified bath, while drone killing entire wedding parties.

 

[East of Eden]

So "some had the attitude" that "Slavery was Catholic social justice value and that opposition to Slavery disproportionately affect people of color, the poor and the vulnerable"

Got a link?

I never said that, I meant weasel politicians like Biden, who hold their finger in the air of public opinion before doing anything, are like those who during slavery times said they personally opposed slavery but had no right to tell anyone else what to do. Stephen Douglas, who Lincoln debated on the slavery issue, "did not regard slavery as a moral question; at least, he never condemned the institution in moral terms either publicly or privately." However, though he "privately deplored slavery and was opposed to its expansion (and, indeed, in 1860 was widely regarded in both North and South as an antislavery candidate), he felt that its discussion as a moral question would place it on a dangerous level of abstraction." Wikipedia

He condemned the Republican Party stance that slavery was condemned by a "higher law". I consider abortion to be a greater evil than slavery, both in the number of victims and the fact at least slaves were allowed to live, however miserably. In both cases, and I would add Jews in Hitler's Germany, a class of humans are/were declared less than human, and therefore disposable, all for the good of society of course.

I doubt Biden's Catholic baptism will do him much good come Judgement Day. "Whatever you did for the least of these......."

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

From a Strictly Catholic perspective I'd venture a guess that Biden views reproductive freedom as Catholic social justice value in that he recognizes that religiously-based obstructions to abortions, contraceptive access and comprehensive health care disproportionately affect people of color, the poor and the vulnerable.

In other words he prefers secular reasons and justifications for abortion to his Catholic morality. If he truly believes that it's better to provide abortion, that abortion in the world is a good thing rather than not having it, then should he not make himself clear when it comes to his relationship with the Catholic Church?

As it stands Catholic teaching is that abortion is immoral. There is little justification for it within the Catholic context and if the Bishops are tasked with the preservation of the faith, why oppose them and stand with Biden who seeks to undermine that faith by implementing a program designed to destroy babies in the womb? Force other faithful Catholics to pay for it and expect to not hear anything about it?

This is secularism to the extreme. Why should any Christian be for this system?

I likewise expect Biden takes the position that sexual and reproductive ethics that are based on justice, reflect a commitment to a person’s well-being and respect and affirm the capacity of all people to make moral decisions about their lives, which upholds and affirms the Church's teaching that each person's conscience is to be recognized and upheld as the final arbiter in all individual moral decision making.

My bet is that Biden holds that all people ought to be trusted to make moral decisions about their lives, the poor and vulnerable ought not be disproportionately harmed by ideological battles over reproductive rights, policymakers and advocates ought to be free to support policies that create a more just and compassionate society and life-saving health interventions should not be blocked by sectarian interests.

As far as forcing me to pay for it, I'm not sure how it rises above everything else I don' t like paying for but am forced to anyway...I certainly don't like being forced to pay for military hardware that gets used to kill civilians, But I pay it.

Is it your position that I am morally responsible for each Drone strike on a hospital or school that kills civilians because I was forced to purchase the drone, pay for the training to use the drone, and pay for the fuel that delivered the drone to it's target?

Are you likewise morally responsible for the taking of that innocent life because you were forced to fund it?

I can understand tolerating a certain amount of immorality. I can understand tolerating a regime or institution that is not perfect. Yet what is it that we're talking about here? We're talking about abortion and whether or not the Catholic democratic machine's support for it is justified. Is there a long game in mind? A strategy to eventually do away with abortion?

What is the goal here? Is it to maximize individual liberty to the point where a woman can procure an abortion of her own free will without any restraints placed on her by government? Is this the ideal society Catholics should envision? Where instead of nurturing life, it is destroyed so that a woman is not 'burdened' with the responsibility of her having fallen on a penis at some point?

If you consider droning a serious crime, one which was pioneered under Obama I believe and perfected under him, why do you continue to support that political side? Given that Catholic morality is far removed from the Democratic party at this point and that it is clearly more inspired by secular progressive thought, how does this bolster Catholicism? Why continue to support this institution when they are heading in the wrong direction?

I'm not asking you to vote Republican either. You are not morally responsible for the government taxing you and using that money on immoral things. But you are responsible if you support ending the Hyde Amendment and want to see abortion access increase rather than decrease. Much like I am responsible for supporting the death penalty. The difference in that last instance is I believe there is a moral justification for the death penalty. I presume you think abortion is evil, immoral, abominable and other adjectives, yet you seem to agree with Biden and the Catholic democrats on the need to support it.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Cardinals Cupich, Gregory, Tobin AND Pope Francis (the Vatican). Six active American Cardinals, evenly divided (I am assuming..,the others are Dolan, O'Malley, and DiNardo. Actually, in 2016 Cardinal Dolan said he did not believe in withholding the Eucharist from political leaders, so he may agree with the first three.)

Oh, how I wish that the lay Catholics to whom censuring Biden, Pelosi and others "seems obvious" would have the same prescience, awareness, and mindfulness of political leaders' other positions. I wish that they would see them holistically.

Fantine, still waiting to hear if you actually think abortion is immoral. You've masterfully dodged the question every time when asked of you.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Has anyone given thought to whether the Supreme Court's support of LGBT issues should get treatment similar to abortion? Unlike Biden, the Supreme Court actually makes enforceable decisions on these matters. Also, how about people who vote for Democrats? No, I don't want to see the Church do this. But I also think a political attack aimed specifically at Biden will be pretty obvious, and is likely to widen the gap between bishops and lay people.

You have to consider that there is a divide in thinking between mass going Catholics and those who are Catholic in name only. The majority of Mass going Catholics support barring communion to Biden, so why should Catholics who don't practice be considered in the equation? Not that the Catholic Church is or should be a democratic institution in the first place, since the Church laity have a responsibility to obey the hierarchy which has a responsibility to be faithful to the deposit which has been handed down to it.

I understand why as a progressive you don't want to see the Church bar Biden communion, but given the standards of the Church itself, how can it do anything other? The sorts of arguments being made by Catholics who support Biden in this forum are ill thought of. They basically give complete power and license to the state to do whatever it wants and the Church can do nothing in response, lest it be considered 'political'. It would be like a Catholic supporting Joseph the II of Austria in his liquidation of the monasteries and critiquing other Catholics for getting involved in politics. But I suppose since Joseph only took property and that is less defensible since property has more value in the eyes of many Americans when compared to unborn life.

 

[East of Eden]

From a Strictly Catholic perspective I'd venture a guess that Biden views reproductive freedom as Catholic social justice value in that he recognizes that religiously-based obstructions to abortions, contraceptive access and comprehensive health care disproportionately affect people of color, the poor and the vulnerable.

Abortion certainly does affect the poor and minorities, Jesse Jackson used to call abortion 'black genocide' before he sold out to the Left. And the most vulnerable are the unborn.

I likewise expect Biden takes the position that sexual and reproductive ethics that are based on justice, reflect a commitment to a person’s well-being and respect

Completely leaves out the unborn child.

 

[Fantine]

Cardinal Dolan was on the list of 66 signers of the cardinal Gregory letter. Except he said he never actually signed such a letter. Two other bishops similarly got themselves off the list of signers.

I wish Catholics would be holistic and not bend over backwards for abortion. It endangers their souls. It makes for bad examples of people who claim to be Catholic but when it comes to faith and morals they believe something else. It doesn’t take much prescience to know something is wrong when Nancy Pelosi lectures her bishop on when life begins and how abortion is a moral choice. Such people should have the honesty to avoid the Eucharist without even having to be told. Most of the bishops would agree. That appointees of pope Francis have trouble with that indicates that the trouble might be with who appointed them.

Supporting candidates who are pro-choice does not mean that one is pro-abortion.

Last November, the choice was between Biden and an incumbent who is under criminal investigation in several jurisdictions, who is heavily indebted in the tune of half a billion dollars to financial institutions both here and overseas, and who is still contesting an election he lost by 8 million votes and tried to incite an insurrection over.

You think he was against abortion? ROFL. Read "The Art of the Deal," a quick read thanks to the ghostwriter who continually warns the U.S. against voting for Trump.

It was just a "deal" for him. And to get the deal many who define "pro-life" in very narrow terms sacrificed the poor, the hungry, the homeless, refugees in Syria and elsewhere, immigrant adults and children, the dreamers, the 6 million Americans who got COVID because of government inaction and reopening and unmasking too quickly, Puerto Ricans who suffered without clean water and electricity while he threw paper towels at them....for starters.

He would have even sacrificed people my age for the economy, with his surrogate in Texas and an unqualified medical doctor telling us we should risk our lives for their stock profits!

We made not only the best choice, but the only choice possible. We saved our democracy...for now.

You're welcome.