Catholic House Democrats prepare to send bishops 'statement of principles' on Communion vote

[Michie]

These are some lenses through which to read the ‘Statement of Principles’ on the reception of Holy Communion, and a breakdown of the Statement’s most glaring weaknesses.

60 Catholic House Dems Challenge the US Bishops on Communion — Here’s Why They’re Wrong

 

[GodsGrace101]

From what I understand, if you disagree with Church doctrine, you cannot be offered Communion, because you are then not "in communion" with the church. To quote from the below article (emphasis mine):

"Similarly, Catholics who don’t follow the Church’s laws on divorce and remarriage, or who obstinately reject Church teaching, such as the inherent evil of abortion, shouldn’t come forward to receive Communion because they’re no longer in communion."

Who Can Receive Holy Communion in the Catholic Church - dummies

That sounds right.

Jesus said that just thinking about sin is sinful...so if someone in Congress supports abortion , he's already sinned in his heart.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I'm considering voting no...

Because what if Catholic politicians are 'standing down' on abortion, because they realize that's the only way to get a foot in and get at least some Catholic/Christian principles into the political arena.

...What if they're waiting for a more opportune time to act on abortion, while keeping their true opinions secret?

If that were the case, it might be wise.

Avoid evil and the appearance of evil.

 

[Fantine]

I think it's a good thing that that opinion piece in the NC Register was written by a Jesuit. Good for the Jesuits for embracing diversity and allowing their members to seek out truth no matter what direction it takes them in.

The Jesuits are our real scholars. Teilhard de Chardin's works have changed my whole perspective about God and the universe (Louis Savary, a former Jesuit, has taken Teilhard's voluminous work and made it easily understandable for all of us. He is especially good at relating Teilhard to the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius to bring Ignatius into the 21st century.)

My biggest gripe with the Eucharist-deniers is not what they say--it is their great big sin of omission, which not only politicizes their views but repels anyone who realizes that yes, there are commandments, precepts, spiritual and corporal works of mercy, etc. In doing so, their motives are suspect and they lose all credibility.

If they want respect, let them go after people on both sides of the aisle. If they want any suggestions on what possible sins Republican Catholics could have they can consult their parishioners and will quickly get a voluminous list.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I think it's a good thing that that opinion piece in the NC Register was written by a Jesuit. Good for the Jesuits for embracing diversity and allowing their members to seek out truth no matter what direction it takes them in.

The Jesuits are our real scholars. Teilhard de Chardin's works have changed my whole perspective about God and the universe (Louis Savary, a former Jesuit, has taken Teilhard's voluminous work and made it easily understandable for all of us. He is especially good at relating Teilhard to the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius to bring Ignatius into the 21st century.)

My biggest gripe with the Eucharist-deniers is not what they say--it is their great big sin or omission, which not only politicizes their views but repels anyone who realizes that yes, there are commandments, precepts, spiritual and corporal works of mercy, etc. In doing so, their motives are suspect and they lose all credibility.

If they want respect, let them go after people on both sides of the aisle. If they want any suggestions on what possible sins Republican Catholics could have (excuse me while I get my smelling salts) they can consult their parishioners and will quickly get a voluminous list.

Or you could have opinions like this: A Response to the “Statement of Principles” | Salvatore J. Cordileone

You call Catholics who want to deny the Eucharist to Biden, deniers of it. But it's those who affirm it's real presence and integrity that are more concerned about the sacrament than yourself Fantine. Would you impose no limits? No canonical discipline? Subject all to the desires of the individual will of those who would receive? That's very protestant.

Fantine, given your partisan support for the Democrats in everything they do, why should your arguments at this point be taken seriously? Instead of actually wrestling with the topic of abortion all you have done is point out the supposed sins of others in order to justify your view. Republicans bad, therefore Biden good and he can do no wrong. You've moved away from your initial statement of his position being a 'tragic flaw' to a complete defense of abortion regardless of the consequences.

Why do you want to support abortion so much? Why does the idea of illegalizing it or working against it repel you so much? Why does abortion of convenience need to be legalized if it is a good thing to reduce abortions? So many questions, yet you have not had the common decency to answer any.

 

[Fantine]

Reality check.

When Democrats are in office, abortions ARE reduced. You are castigated me for supporting officials who have been MORE successful in reducing abortions?!

I think that for the judgmental, the idea of crime and punishment is satisfying. I prefer policies that work.

It's 100% politics. The bishops wanting to deny Communion to ONE party based on ONE policy among hundreds, most of which are about stewardship of God's planet, nuclear disarmament, and assuring that the human rights of all Americans are recognized and met.

All policies which are 110% more about WWJD than the Republicans'.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Reality check.

When Democrats are in office, abortions ARE reduced. You are castigated me for supporting officials who have been MORE successful in reducing abortions?!

I think that for the judgmental, the idea of crime and punishment is satisfying. I prefer policies that work.

The bishops wanting to deny Communion to ONE party based on ONE policy among hundreds, most of which are about stewardship of God's planet, nuclear disarmament, and assuring that the human rights of all Americans are recognized and met.

All policies which are 110% more about WWJD than the Republicans'.

If it is a good thing that abortions are being reduced, why not go even further and illegalize abortions of convenience? Why seek to expand access to abortion and make states which do not like abortion comply with it and force their tax payers to fund it? Why do you defend this policy which would allow for more abortions in the long term?

The Bishops would deny communion to any Republican who supported the sort of abortion policies that you do Fantine.

If Biden should not be refused communion, what should happen Fantine? What should be done about this man in public office who denies almost every social teaching of the Catholic Church on matters of family and sex? Nothing?

 

[chevyontheriver]

If Biden should not be refused communion, what should happen Fantine? What should be done about this man in public office who denies almost every social teaching of the Catholic Church on matters of family and sex? Nothing?

If Biden should not be refused communion, what should happen Fantine? What should be done about this CATHOLIC man in public office who denies almost every social teaching of the Catholic Church on matters of family and sex? Nothing?

If this man were a Presbyterian or a Baptist or an Episcopalian or something this whole debate would be essentially one where the Catholics bishops would disagree with the politician's position but that would be it. It is PRECISELY and ONLY because these politicians are Catholic AND in violation of Catholic moral teaching that this matters at all. This would look much different if Kamala Harris was president instead of Joe Biden. Lets say Old Joe retires in a month or so and Kamala Harris becomes president. A not implausible scenario. Aside from a brief note from the head of the USCCB on abortion policy and religious liberty that will be the end of the matter. No bishop at all will be making a fuss about denying communion to her. That is, unless she marches into a Catholic Church and demands the Eucharist. Old Joe says he's Catholic. Membership does have it's responsibilities. Responsibilities Old Joe fails to fulfill. Kamala Harris isn't a member, and thus has no similar responsibilities. So she would not be the focus of any similar move.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Reality check.

When Democrats are in office, abortions ARE reduced. You are castigated me for supporting officials who have been MORE successful in reducing abortions?!

Reality check.

If we executed every convicted felon we would reduce felonies. It really would work. I think you are castigating people whose ideas would be more effective in reducing felonies.

I think that for the judgmental, the idea of crime and punishment is satisfying. I prefer policies that work.

And you label them judgmental.

You CLAIM when Democrats are in office abortions are reduced. I'm not sure of any mechanism for that, or any demonstration of cause and effect. For all we know it is either a correlation without cause or a statistical anomaly. But you say so. You should likewise be willing to kill all convicted felons. I'm not even in favor of that,

It's 100% politics. The bishops wanting to deny Communion to ONE party based on ONE policy among hundreds, most of which are about stewardship of God's planet, nuclear disarmament, and assuring that the human rights of all Americans are recognized and met.

All policies which are 110% more about WWJD than the Republicans'.

It's about Catholic moral teaching and the undermining of that moral teaching by Catholics. It applies to Catholics in office, including Rudy Guiliani who is a Republican. It's just that Democrats ARE generally the party of abortion and Catholic Democrats find themselves in lockstep with their Party platform rather than Catholic moral teaching. And if you get snuffed before you can be born then what does it matter to you about the environment or nuclear disarmament or anything else. If you don't have the right to be born, what does all that matter?

You make it an issue about most Catholic bishops hating on the Democrats. That IS what you think, right? What if it's instead about most Catholic bishops wanting Eucharistic coherency and trying to get Catholics to follow Catholic moral teaching starting with undoubtedly the most serious of matters first? Again, Rudy Guiliani could have signed that letter the 60 Catholic House Democrats signed as the heat is on him too. It's not about bishops vs Democrats. It's about Catholics in need of shepherding and whether the shepherds will continue to allow the sheep to wander.