Catholic Doubter?

[geocajun]

Okay- what if someone tries their very best to believe a dogma of faith, but cannot despite their best efforts? Is such a person condemned in the eyes of God?

Rosa, if someone has knowledge that something is a dogma of faith, and knowledge that it is binding, and refuses to assent to believe in, regardless of weather or not they understand it, then they are guilty of heresy.
The Church isn't condeming them, they condem themselves.

 

[Victrixa]

Hi Canadian!

Welcome to OBOB!

I've been reading some of your posts in TCCL and see that you are considering Lutheranism.

I would encourage you to go (deeply) into the History of the Church and you will discover, by doing so, that Catholicism is indeed the Church which Christ established.

Many bad things have been said against the Catholic Church, the Popes, Catholic dogma, etc. and many of these are false. Some facts have been worstened 100 times and are totally out of proportion. Please be careful, brother.

Please reconsider Catholicism and discover its apostolicity, history, beauty. Please seek for the Treasure of the Faith in the Church. Jesus said He would guide the Church through the Holy Spirit, so how can it be in error? Can Jesus lie, my friend?

God bless you.

 

[Maynard Keenan]

So if I try to believe something, can't decide to say "screw it I just don't believe that" but follow Christ and be a part of His church I'll go to hell?

 

[Canadian75]

So if I try to believe something, can't decide to say "screw it I just don't believe that" but follow Christ and be a part of His church I'll go to hell?

In a sense...yes, that is the teaching of the church. At what point involuntary doubt becomes obstinate doubt, I do not know. However, I have read books upon books, website after website, various person to person discussions, and I am still in doubt. That is why I have not started threads or gotten into great detail about my doubts. It is likely that I have heard it or read it before.
Like I said, for the most part they are doubts, neither denied or assented to. I would categorize myself as being in obstinate doubt since no arguments have been able to sway me entirely. I am taking time to sort out the details.
According to the official church teachings I am a heretic and destined to burn in hell if I don't come to my senses.
As mentioned a post or two ago, I am indeed considering the Lutheran church. I was baptized a Catholic, raised as an Anglican and was a confirmed member of the Lutheran church before I entered the RCIA as an adult and was confirmed in the RCC.
I am a committed Christian though. And though the RCC teaches I am going to burn in hell if I don't go to reconciliation and drop my doubts, I just do not believe that. I leave my soul in God's hands. I pray daily for guidance and where I end up...only He knows.
Honest advice is appreciated, but quoting Canon law or the CCC won't help me one bit. I have a copy of the CCC and I've read it several times cover to cover and still use it for reference. I have read most of the Code of Canon law 1983 (I skipped over stuff that would only be relavant to priests an other issues I have no involvment in). Though if you want to quote these sources to educate others who may read this thread...go right ahead.
This is not an easy process for me by any means. If I were to drop dead an hour from now, I have every hope that God understands my heart and my intentions and can forgive me.
One thought that has crept up since reading this thread is: If I am in obstinate doubt about fundamental Catholic beliefs, then I am a heretic. If I am a heretic, I am outside the RCC and in mortal sin. What then, is the difference if I stay in the RCC (where I am in a perpetual state of Mortal sin) or leave the church formally by joining another denomination? Because I don't think I'm suddenly going to have an epiphany and all my doubts will be like dust in the wind. Involuntary doubt....obstinate doubt....mortal sin....venal sin....legalism can suck!
I know I'm not the only member of the RCC to have this problem (of doubts). But I may be among the few who are trying to solve them the best I can.

Peace in Christ.

 

[Rosa Mystica]

I know I'm not the only member of the RCC to have this problem (of doubts). But I may be among the few who are trying to solve them the best I can.

You're not alone; I have them too. PM me if you like.

Another thing: you might want to read the passage from the actual CCC itself. A message board like CF, though beneficial, is not infallible

Rosa

 

[geocajun]

So if I try to believe something, can't decide to say "screw it I just don't believe that" but follow Christ and be a part of His church I'll go to hell?

nobody expects you to overnight become a Saint folks - we all progress at different speeds, and degrees in our faith. Some of us have intellectual issues, which preclude faith, and others have moral issues which preclude intellect. We have to earnestly seek understanding, and form our conscience and intellect in light of Church teaching. When we silence the intellectual and moral issues which hinder our journey we permit Grace to operate within us, and this causes is to grow in faith.
Also, the purpose of the Magisterium is not to marginalize individuals, but rather to give each and every one of us a chance at knowing the Truth.

 

[PioMagnus]

If you reject a Dogma you are not following Christ. However, if you say, "I can't understand that, but I submit." there is nothing to worry about.

God Bless,
Pio Magnus

 

[geocajun]

If you reject a Dogma you are not following Christ. However, if you say, "I can't understand that, but I submit." there is nothing to worry about.

God Bless,
Pio Magnus

that is an important distinction Pio - glad you made it.
Understanding is nice, but its optional.

 

[Rosa Mystica]

nobody expects you to overnight become a Saint folks - we all progress at different speeds, and degrees in our faith. Some of us have intellectual issues, which preclude faith, and others have moral issues which preclude intellect. We have to earnestly seek understanding, and form our conscience and intellect in light of Church teaching. When we silence the intellectual and moral issues which hinder our journey we permit Grace to operate within us, and this causes is to grow in faith.
Also, the purpose of the Magisterium is not to marginalize individuals, but rather to give each and every one of us a chance at knowing the Truth.

Please explain what you mean by "intellectual issues"?

 

[MParedon]

What then, is the difference if I stay in the RCC (where I am in a perpetual state of Mortal sin) or leave the church formally by joining another denomination?
Peace in Christ.

Obviously there is more in your post than I could even begin to help with. But this question stuck out at me. The difference would be that in straying in the CC (Catholic Church) even though in a perpetual state of sin, you would be making the effort and not abandoning Christ's Church because of your weaknesses. In leaving the Church formally you, in effect, wash your hands of the Church and resolve to go to one that...what? Is easier on your conscience? Lives up to your beliefs, but doesn't go beyond?
I don't know and I'm not trying to be patronizing, because I honestly don't know from one thread what all is involved.

I can tell you that I, and I don't doubt, many people are living in a state of perpetual mortal sin. But that in itself is not a reason to leave the Pillar and Foundation.

I think that maybe it might be time for a short while to put away all the theological masterpieces and simply pray.
Also, if you can, imagine who Jesus was talking to when he spoke. These groups weren't comprised of a majority of great theologians. So what exactly would these people think when he spoke of water, pillar and foundations, Body and Blood? Obviously they took these things literally or there wouldn't have been such a big fuss.
I suggest practicing a bit of Divina Lectio (sp?) when you read the Bible, and really put yourself in the position of the people in the crowd.

Then ask yourself. Did Jesus found the Catholic Church, or did Jesus found the fill in the blank Church?

One of them has to be correct and once you get to that point of deciding, then you have to die to yourself, die to all your intellectual need for control and logic and be totally and completely vulnerable to Christ.

 

[Paul S]

Please explain what you mean by "intellectual issues"?

I think a good example of an intellectual issue getting in the way is the Real Presence. The Host, to all the senses, looks like bread, tastes like bread, smells like bread, and feels like bread. For those who need things to be proven before they can accept them, they can't really take the leap of faith to believing that while it looks like bread, it is Jesus.

 

[geocajun]

Please explain what you mean by "intellectual issues"?

Sure Rosa,
By "Intellectual issues" what I mean is that some people cannot assent to a religious truth because they have built up an intellectual barrier to belief. For example, someone who cannot distinguish between 'imagine and conceive' and used the terms interchangibly, may conclude that since they cannot perfectly imagine omnipotence, it is inconceivable. Thus they would conclude that God cannot be omnipotent, and therefore cannot be God, or some other dangerious web of intellectual folly.
Does that make sense? I am not indicating that people who are smart do not have faith, but rather than some who are smart, put too much faith in themselves, and they arent smart enough.
Now those of us who have faith, understand that all Wisdom is of God, and from God.
In truth, I think Mother Teresa has far more wisdom than Albert Einstein.

 

[geocajun]

I think a good example of an intellectual issue getting in the way is the Real Presence. The Host, to all the senses, looks like bread, tastes like bread, smells like bread, and feels like bread. For those who need things to be proven before they can accept them, they can't really take the leap of faith to believing that while it looks like bread, it is Jesus.

good example, and likely easier to understand that the one I came up with