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And calvinist Irresistible Grace says if you are in the elect, you will walk in obedience; you have no choice in the matter.
I totally agree with you on that.Yes, but that's not what the bible says. The bible is full of warnings. It warns us to endure, to resist temptation, to confess our sins, and that sin can shipwreck our faith.
Yes, but that's not what the bible says. The bible is full of warnings. It warns us to endure, to resist temptation, to confess our sins, and that sin can shipwreck our faith.
The slug of metal on the anvil is destined to become a sword. That's what I say if I'm a Calvinist. You say that can't be true, or the blacksmith would not need the hammer and the anvil. .
Calvinist predestination claims that God chooses those who will be saved with no regard for their actions on earth. That is inconsistent with scripture which lays out multiple conditions for salvation.
That is inconsistent with scripture which lays out multiple conditions for salvation.
A human being is not a slug of metal, but is a thinking being made in the image of God, capable of accepting or rejecting God's will.
Bad analogy.
Catholicism holds to predestination, they just don't like that the Reformers, namely Calvin, minimized free will to emphasize Sovereign Election.
Most of all, it was also a slap to the Pope because Sovereign election rendered the Church's authority altogether moot.
Yes and no.
The Calvinist position is that God chose the "elect" for whatever poupose He deemed fit. The "elect" were chosen out of His Sovereign will.
Catholics make it that God chose us because in His "foreknowledge" he saw who would or would not accept and believe. Which, if scripture is correct, makes God a respecter of persons. God saw man "x" would accept and believe therefore God chose him. On the other hand, God did not chose man "y" because he would not accept and believe.
That is the Catholic position.
If it is true, then this piece of scripture lies:
"For there is no respect of persons with God." -Rom. 2:11 (KJV) (cf. Acts 10:34)
God has respect for man "x" because of foreseen faith, while on the other hand, God has no respect for man "y" because there is no foreseen faith.
The Calvinist position has always been that God chose the "elect" for whatever reason He deemed. According to His own purpose.
And that, friend, is according to scripture.
God Bless
Till all are one.
As far as I know, the Apostle Paul said all one had to do is confess with their mouth, believe in their heart, and they would be saved.
.
That's debatable.
Maybe according to Catholicism.
God Bless
Till all are one.
You are mistaken. Saved is a present tense condition. That is no guarantee of future salvation.
Romans 2
6God will repay each person according to what they have done. 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
Romans 11
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
The Calvinist position is the one that makes God a respecter of persons. The Catholic position is consistent with scripture:
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
What did God foreknow?
The Calvinist position is the one that makes God a respecter of persons.
The Calvinist position is the one that makes God a respecter of persons.
The Calvinist position is the one that makes God a respecter of persons.
Wrong again, the greek word for "saved" is always rendered three ways, as in "we were saved" (past tense), we are currently being saved (present tense), and we will be saved (future tense).
God Bless
Till all are one.
I love it when people don't know things.
In the Greek, what is the word here rendered "for"?
"eis". It is a conjunction which links the current passage with the previous one.
Why did God "foreknow" these people? Because he "called" them first!
"to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow,"
Sorry, try again.
God Bless
Till all are one.
I really wish people would think before they post.
"Calvin’s view will draw on excerpts from Book III, chapters 21-23, of his Institutes of the Christian Religion (1559) in Hans J. Hillerbrand’s collection The Protestant Reformation (ordinary page references are to this work), and sections 3.24.4 and 3.24.5 of Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion translated by Henry Beveridge.
Predestination According to Calvin
According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death (180, 184).” Calvin was careful to distinguish the predestination of individuals from the corporate election of nations such as Israel (185). He argued that an explanation of predestination is only complete when it includes the election of individuals (187).
Calvin described the basis of predestination in several ways. In general he affirmed that there is no basis for election outside of God. Referring to Eph. 1.9, Calvin noted that God purposed election “in Himself,” basing his decree of predestination on “nothing outside Himself (192).” Calvin attributed the salvation of the elect to God’s free decision to favor them (188). He variously described this as God’s “mere generosity (180, 187),” his “freely given mercy (189, 195, 211),” and the “good pleasure of His will (191; cf. Eph. 1.5).” Moreover, Calvin based the damnation of the reprobate solely in God’s decision (189, 200).
Since God’s reasons for predestination are wholly internal to his being (190), they are opaque to humanity. Ultimately, then, the basis of God’s predestination is mysterious and “utterly incomprehensible” to people (209). This mystery points to one of God’s purposes in predestination, to inspire wonder and reverence in believers (181). The things hidden in God are not to be understood by people, but rather revered in their “wonderful depth (179).” Indeed, for John Calvin the overarching purpose of predestination is for God to be glorified, both in the praise of the elect for his grace (192), and in the terrible yet glorious judgment of the reprobate (199).
Despite the mysterious basis of predestination, it is possible for the elect to be certain of their status as children of God (187). The first and seemingly most important indicator of election is what Calvin referred to as “the calling of God (3.24.4, 189).” His use of this term seems to refer to a subjective inward certainty that God has chosen a person for salvation. Elsewhere, Calvin suggested that having “knowledge of [God’s] name” and reflecting the process of sanctification are both indicators of election (189). Moreover, Calvin claimed that “communion with Christ” is sufficient proof of election (3.24.5): since we are elected in Jesus Christ (Eph. 1.4), we cannot seek the certainty of election “apart from the Son (3.24.5).” Calvin also seemed to obscurely suggest that the daily blessings received from the hand of God might rightly be perceived as an indication of election, “that secret adoption (3.24.4).” Together, these signs—the foremost being “the calling of God,”—yield certainty of salvation and tranquil peace with God (3.24.4).
From Ephesians 1.4 he argued that one purpose of God’s election was to make his children holy. Since holiness is to be produced by election, it made no sense to Calvin to assert the reverse (191-2). Moreover, the whole point of teaching that election took place before creation (Eph. 1.4) is to demonstrate that election had nothing to do with meritorious works (191). Indeed, for Calvin another important purpose of predestination was to communicate that salvation is not based on individual merit but solely on God’s grace (191).
Calvin took up the view that God elects some but condemns none (200). Calvin saw this view as “highly absurd” since it seemed to imply that the salvation received by the elect could also be attained by the non-elect as a result of “chance” or “their own effort (200).” Rejecting this inconsistent implication, Calvin asserted that the reprobate are those God intentionally neglects to choose (200). From Rom. 9.14ff, Calvin argued that the hardening of non-elect hearts is as much attributable to God as is mercy. Moreover, he noted that Paul did not shy away from this dreadful conclusion, but rather questioned the right of the clay to protest the Potter’s work (Rom. 9.20), and linked condemnation of the reprobate to God’s glory (Rom. 9.22-23). For John Calvin, election could not but stand “over against reprobation (200).”
John Calvin on Predestination.
Sorry, but I don't see it your way.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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