Catholic defense

[Iollain]

Of course no, because it is public knowledge that the Catholic Church is apostate headed by the anti-Christ himself. Don't tell Benedict XVI, he is still diluded into thinking he is serving Christ. shhhhhhhhhh.

I didn't say he wasn't serving Christ, might be a bit delusional here and there, but i would say he believes in Jesus for sure.

 

[ScottBot]

I have asked several catholics these questions over the last two years I have been here and I really get no answers from them that align with Scripture and if I ask in OBOB I can hardly debate if their answers should not line up with Scripture, can I?

I would appreciate anyone giving me the answers to my questions

I am sure one of the numerous anti-Catholics will be along any minute to confirm your suspicions and agree with you, should you all the Scripture that supports why Catholicsm has nothing to do with "authentic" Christianity. I've gotten out of the debate business. Maybe Shelby5 will take enough interest in this thread to engage your curiosity. He is more than up to the task.

 

[J0nDaFr3aK]

let me tell you something. a church can be rejected by God and that's not unfaithful of Him. In the book of Revelation John writes 7 letters to the 7 churches in asia. those 7 churches represent 7 periods of the history of the Church so far. the last 2 letters were sent to the churches in Philadelphia and Laodicea. these 2 represent the same period of the Church in history. Philadelphia is the one made up of those who'll receive the prize because they have been faithful and persevered till the very end. tha latter is the one who'll e left behind because they were lukewarm. had they forsaken their first love maybe they could have still had the chance to be saved. but they were lukewarm, which means, God is about to spit them out of His mouth. i'm not saying this is referred to the Catholic church, but again i wanna say that this letter is for all those who are lukewarm. this means that people from every nation, tongue, RELIGION who have been found lukewarm will be thown to hell.
see, God can reject what he has established and He will beacause this is what the Lord says

 

[Blank123]

I am sure one of the numerous anti-Catholics will be along any minute to confirm your suspicions and agree with you, should you all the Scripture that supports why Catholicsm has nothing to do with "authentic" Christianity. I've gotten out of the debate business. Maybe Shelby5 will take enough interest in this thread to engage your curiosity. He is more than up to the task.

I respect the fact that you have no interest in debating this, however if it is the one true church as you and the other Roman Catholics on this board seem to believe then it should be very easy to prove from Scripture

 

[Iollain]

I think the RCCs are mistaking someone saying they are not the One True Church for saying they are not Christians

 

[ScottBot]

I think the RCCs are mistaking someone saying they are not the One True Church for saying they are not Christians

What is the One True Chruch?

 

[Annabel Lee]

Dear God,
Please save me from your followers.
Sincerely yours,
A.L.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Would it not be considered plagerizing, when taking someone else's work and making it your own??

 

[Peaceful Dove]

This assumes that what the RCC teaches is correct, that they themselves weren't the ones teaching "otherwise".


Again, assumes the RCC is correct to begin with.


Assumes the RCC is that "correct church" to begin with.


Relevence?



Assumes that the RCC is the one that has "the truth" to begin with.


Only applies to non-RCC if you assume the RCC is correct to begin with.

Again, this all assumes that the RCC is the "correct, one church". Just because it may have BEGAN by being founded by Christ, it does NOT necessarily follow that they maintained accurate theology. Jesus' own disciples proved themselves fallible multiple times. To insist they and their own disciples suddenly became infallible is utterly baseless.

We are assuming nothing. Read the Gospel of John and you will see that Jesus made some profound promises. He would sent the Holy Spirit to the Church that would lead it to all truth and the Holy Spirit would abide there, even till the end of the earth. You will also read that Jesus prayed for Unity, that we would be one as He and the Father are one ( That is perfect unity because you cannot be any closer) so that the World will know that The Father sent the Son.

 

[J0nDaFr3aK]

Dear God,
Please save me from your followers.
Sincerely yours,
A.L.

Ok, see what our conversations are causing. we give a bad testimony of our faith. that's why noone follows Christ anymore.this is the real big problem in the church: DIVISION!! These converstations WE keep are vain and i'm really sorry. i know i havent tried to say my church is better than some other's churches but the thing is this conversation could go on forever and noone would get to agree with eacth other so please if you really want to know the truth pray and read the bible...maybe some should blow some dust off their bibles covers before starting to read huh?
the answers you're looking for are not here but written in the Bible.
May God bless all

 

[Peaceful Dove]

I didn't say he wasn't serving Christ, might be a bit delusional here and there, but i would say he believes in Jesus for sure.

He will be thrilled to death that you have said he was serving Christ.
What a recommendation!

 

[CCWoody]

We are assuming nothing. Read the Gospel of John and you will see that Jesus made some profound promises. He would sent the Holy Spirit to the Church that would lead it to all truth and the Holy Spirit would abide there, even till the end of the earth. You will also read that Jesus prayed for Unity, that we would be one as He and the Father are one ( That is perfect unity because you cannot be any closer) so that the World will know that The Father sent the Son.

Yes, you are simply assuming that when the Scriptures speak of the church it means the Roman Catholic church. Too bad that you cannot prove that assumption or even infallibly declare that you know that the Roman Catholic church is the church. You must simply believe in other men who declare that they are infallible in their declarations. You can't know it infallibly.

It is ironic, no, that the Roman Catholic witness is a self-defeating witness for the fact that you are claiming to know infallibly that which can only be known by one who can know infallibly. Yet you claim that individual Roman Catholics are not infallible. Hence your witness cannot be certain. Yet you claim that you know that your church is the true church.

 

[CCWoody]

I am sure one of the numerous anti-Catholics....

So, why is one who opposes the false administration of the church an anti-Catholic? How is it that opposition to a false system makes one against individual people?

I reject your assertion. To claim that people are against other people is nothing but an ad hominen against them.

 

[+RubiesFire+]

I was once Roman Catholic, I still like the Church but my family is still Roman Catholic. I just consider myself Evangelical Christian. I read the Bible, repent for my sins, say my prayers, listen to Christian music, but I am sorry to say this, that all the Churches in my area do not know Jesus. Every denomonation has become to materialistic of who is better than who. The churches of today I believe are empty, I don't feel Jesus or God, I've heard people who attend different churches say the same thing. The churches I believe have forgotten Jesus in my area. I don't know about anyone else who experiences this problem. I actually have never felt Jesus in any churches except the Roman Catholic, which I use to feel his presence. I've heard other demoninations who attended the Roman Catholic even though they were not Catholic and I heard the same thing, they felt Jesus within the church. It's not the Churches name or denomination that makes the Church, it's Jesus presence in our hearts and in spirit that makes his Church feel like home.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

We are assuming nothing. Read the Gospel of John and you will see that Jesus made some profound promises. He would sent the Holy Spirit to the Church that would lead it to all truth and the Holy Spirit would abide there, even till the end of the earth. You will also read that Jesus prayed for Unity, that we would be one as He and the Father are one ( That is perfect unity because you cannot be any closer) so that the World will know that The Father sent the Son.

Respectfully, I think some assume that the church of which Jesus and the Bible speaks just happens to be THEIR particular congregation or denomination...

And that the unity about which Jesus prayed was for political, institutional unity...

And I think it's being forgotten that, to my knowledge, only two denominations in the world claim to be THE church of Jesus Christ - the RCC and LDS. Certainly, the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod of the USA doesn't make such a claim, nor any other Protestant denomination that I'm personally aware of. So, the "burden of proof" lies with the RCC and LDS. I think, to THEIR satisfaction, such more than exists, but of course, the "proof" comes from their own denomination - their own chosen Tradition and Leadership. No problem. But, of course, those not so assuming aren't going to agree. No surprise.

 

[Axion]

you seem to be implying that He established the Roman Catholic Church and that the bishops and Presbyters are the authority of that church. What happens when those leaders go against the word of God - are we allowed to question them or hold them accountable for that?

Many leaders have gone against the word of God - such as Arius, Nestorius and many others. However the Church as a whole has never gone astray, and has always taught the essential true gospel.

The Roman Catholic church has a very specific hierarcy from priest all the way up to the Pope, and I do not see this hierarchy in Scripture. Where is it?

well. You admit there were twelve Apostles with authority. Right?

And ONE Apostle was given overall responsibility for leadership.

Matthew 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

This is reinforced by Jesus statements to Peter in Luke 22:31-32 which say:
31 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when
once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

In addition: Paul appointed successors like Timothy to run the Church and appoint others including Bishops, Presbyters and deacons.

Now my Bible says that all we have to do to be a member of the church of Christ is to accept Christ as our Saviour and make Him Lord of our lives. I do not see anywhere in the Bible where it says we need to belong to a set church or institution - I would appreciate seeing Biblical bak up for this as well

Jesus also said I have given them the glory that you gave me that they may be one as we are one I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. (John 17: 22-23)

The unity of Christians is to be visible, as a witness to the world.

Matthew 18.17: "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church, and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax-collector."

How can you listen to a church that is invisible and insubstantial?

In Luke 10:16 Jesus says to the Apostles...
16 "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; 1 John 2:19.

This verse defines Christians as those who remain in the visible congregation of the Church. In the next verses too we see a visible organisation, with an authoritative leadership.

Hebrews 13:17
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.
Acts 20:28
28 Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.

1 Timothy 4:11-14
11 Command and teach these things.
12 Let no one despise your youth, but set the believers an example in speech and conduct, in love, in faith, in purity.
13 Till I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching.
14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you.

1 Timothy 4:14 shows succession. The Apostles did not just go out and start a Church and then when the Apostles died, the Chuch died. The Apostles as leaders of the Church had successors to carry on that leadership. Also, notice that they are to "command and teach". This does not say, here read this and come to your own conclusion.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Just because many Christians have not been convinced by the RCC regarding their self claims does not suggest that they are "anti-catholic."

I find that the RCC has embraced many things about which they have not made a convincing argument - Transubstantiation, the Infalliblity of the Papacy, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, The Coredemptrix, the Assumption of Mary, the Perpetual Virinity of Mary, and Unam Santiums, "we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

I don't declare these heresies or false doctrines, but I'm not convinced by the Bible that they are Doctrines (at best, pious opinions). And I DO reject Unam Sanctum. Thus, because I don't accept these things (and some others), I cannot be a Roman Catholic, participate in the Holy Sacrament (as least according to some RC's), and in light of Unam Sanctum, perhaps be saved. I do NOT claim that those who participate in congregations of the RCC are "separated brothers" I embrace them as FULL brothers and sisters in Christ, EQUALLY a part of His church. I don't question their status before God or Christ or in His church. But note: I'm not the one doing the condemning. My congregation welcomes RC's to the Sacrament since we too embrace the real presence of Christ in both natures (as many Protestants do). There's no equivent of Unam Sanctum in my church. No, I don't think I'm "anti-Catholic." Although, I don't agree with everything they teach.


I think there's a difference between disagreeing with some teachings and being "anti." I think this is suppose to be a discussion forum, where we discuss what we believe. Of course, for many of us, our faith is something we embrace passionately and so the possiblity of offense is there - even when such is not intended. I think such should cause us to choose our words with some care AND to not be so quick to take offense. And if we don't know what was implied, recall Jesus' counsel in Matthew 18:15 and use that PM feature to check out our assumption (you know what they say about the word "assume" don't you??!!).



Peace be with you...


- Josiah


.

 

[Axion]

And I think it's being forgotten that, to my knowledge, only two denominations in the world claim to be THE church of Jesus Christ - the RCC and LDS. Certainly, the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod of the USA doesn't make such a claim, nor any other Protestant denomination that I'm personally aware of.

Why do you keep coming up with this tripe?

The LDS is nothing to do with the catholic Church being the foundation of some wayward protestant sectarians.

And once again you show "Your knowledge" to be deficient. Since the Eastern Orthodox Church and other Apostolic churches also claim to be either the whole, or part of the Original Church founded by Christ.

As for protestant churches, their theology of the "invisible church" was specifically designed to justify and cover for their schism and break-away from the universal church.

 

[Deb7777]

Just because many Christians have not been convinced by the RCC regarding their self claims does not suggest that they are "anti-catholic."

I find that the RCC has embraced many things about which they have not made a convincing argument - Transubstantiation, the Infalliblity of the Papacy, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, The Coredemptrix, the Assumption of Mary, the Perpetual Virinity of Mary, and Unam Santiums, "we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

I don't declare these heresies or false doctrines, but I'm not convinced by the Bible that they are Doctrines (at best, pious opinions). And I DO reject Unam Sanctum. Thus, because I don't accept these things (and some others), I cannot be a Roman Catholic, participate in the Holy Sacrament (as least according to some RC's), and in light of Unam Sanctum, perhaps be saved. I do NOT claim that those who participate in congregations of the RCC are "separated brothers" I embrace them as FULL brothers and sisters in Christ, EQUALLY a part of His church. I don't question their status before God or Christ or in His church. But note: I'm not the one doing the condemning. My congregation welcomes RC's to the Sacrament since we too embrace the real presence of Christ in both natures (as many Protestants do). There's no equivent of Unam Sanctum in my church. No, I don't think I'm "anti-Catholic." Although, I don't agree with everything they teach.


I think there's a difference between disagreeing with some teachings and being "anti." I think this is suppose to be a discussion forum, where we discuss what we believe. Of course, for many of us, our faith is something we embrace passionately and so the possiblity of offense is there - even when such is not intended. I think such should cause us to choose our words with some care AND to not be so quick to take offense. And if we don't know what was implied, recall Jesus' counsel in Matthew 18:15 and use that PM feature to check out our assumption (you know what they say about the word "assume" don't you??!!).



Peace be with you...


- Josiah


.

So tell me why didn't the true Church of Christ teach against these things that christian were being taught in the first century second century ,etc. Show me where the Church condemns those things Christians practised and believed for centuries, why no voice? What happen to the teaching Church of Christ to perserve the truth and to refute falsehood. Show me where the true Church of Christ agrees with you in her history on your doctrines of for example Mary was not a perpetual virgin, surely the Church you believe was Christ through the ages will back you up, they too must have the insight and wisdom that you possess, show me where the church teaches your doctrine of belief.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

The LDS is nothing to do with the catholic Church being the foundation of some wayward protestant sectarians.

I think you missed my point; sorry.

My point was that if a given congregation and/or denomination is going to claim that they essentially are THE Church of Christ, the institution which Christ personally founded, the institution to which the Bible is speaking, then the burden of proof lies with them. The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim. I know of no Protestant denomination that makes such a claim.

I think the explaination which the RCC and LDS give is very well understood. The Catholics here have done an outstanding job of communicating it. Thank you! But, as has been pointed out repeatedly, such a few assumes much. The interpretations and applications made of the Bible are, clearly, the interpretations and applications made by your denomination and then declared to be infallible and the norm for the evaluation of your denomination's interpretation. MY point is not to, in any way, diss that. You can so choose if you so desire. I just don't know why some RC's don't realize why hundreds of millions of Christians don't agree.


Friend, it does not necessarily mean that Protestants are stupid or ignorant or blind or unspiritual or prideful or self-justying. Any more than when Protestants observe that, in their opinion, the position of the RCC is egotistical, just-justifying, and simply the result of their efforts to be more powerful than the east or secular governments. Either side of that could be argued - and probably defended - but I doubt it applies to 99.9% of EITHER Protestants or Catholics today. The simple issue to ME is this: It all comes down to epistemology, how we NORM what we teach and claim. Obviously, if the RCC is the Norm for the teachings and claims of the RCC, then the RCC will conclude that it's correct.

And once again you show "Your knowledge" to be deficient. Since the Eastern Orthodox Church and other Apostolic churches also claim to be either the whole, or part of the Original Church founded by Christ.

I think you misunderstood, I wasn't speaking of the EO or Anglican or others. I was speaking of the RCC specifically.

Oh, and I consider myself to be "one" with the original church founded by Christ, too, because I'm Protestant and embrace the one holy catholic and apostolic church, the communion of saints. I don't insist that my particular congregation or the denomination to which it associates happens to be, in any sense, identical to that.

As for protestant churches, their theology of the "invisible church" was specifically designed to justify and cover for their schism and break-away from the universal church.

Since Protestants believe in the universal church, I'm not sure what you mean by that...

Of course, Protestants could claim that the RCC teaches this idea that they are essentially THE Church of Christ, the Infallibility of the Papacy, Unam Sanctum and the rest to justify and cover their obvious power grabs and desire to not be accountable to anything but they themselves. Can you see that? I'm not such accomplishes a whole lot...


Peace be with you...


- Josiah


.