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catholic confirmation question

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mrtownzjoo

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Wow, this is quite an amazing site. The choice of message boards is amazing, if not overwhelming, so i hope i'm posting this in the right one...

I'm not looking for a debate, i'm looking for hard facts.

Does anyone know if Confirmation is a permanent sacrament? Can it be anulled, such as marriage can be?

I'm finding it extrememley hard to find any sort of document saying one way or the other. If you have an answer either way, i need to know where i can find it. Like i said, i need hard facts.

thanks! any help is greatly appreciated.
 

Fiat

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mrtownzjoo said:
Wow, this is quite an amazing site. The choice of message boards is amazing, if not overwhelming, so i hope i'm posting this in the right one...

I'm not looking for a debate, i'm looking for hard facts.

Does anyone know if Confirmation is a permanent sacrament? Can it be anulled, such as marriage can be?

I'm finding it extrememley hard to find any sort of document saying one way or the other. If you have an answer either way, i need to know where i can find it. Like i said, i need hard facts.

thanks! any help is greatly appreciated.
I don't know nor have I ever heard of anyone wanting or applying for an "annullment" of confirmation. I think it would be best to direct your question to your local catholic priest. Why would you want to annull confirmation of your faith?
 
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JillLars

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There are those of us who were confirmed catholic but no longer attend catholic church. I have been told that because I was confirmed catholic, I will always be catholic, regardless of my desire to no longer be associated with that denomination. (I don't really care either way, but I get offended when people tell me I'm not lutheran, I'm just a not practicing catholic)
 
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Fiat

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Steph said:
No, Confirmation puts a character on your soul that lasts forever. .
character? huh? Steph could you explain this to me, I'm not following you on this one.

This is what I have on "confirmation:
CCC1285-1321
God strengthens our souls in another way, through the sacrament of confirmation. Even though Jesus' disciples receive grace before his Ressurection, on Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came to strengthen them with new graces for the difficult work ahead. Then they went out and preached the gospel fearlessly and carried out the mission Christ had given them. Later they laid hands on others to strengthen them as well. Through confirmation you are strengthened to meet the spiritual challanges in your life.
 
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Achichem

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Steph said:
No, Confirmation puts a character on your soul that lasts forever. It cannot be taken away. Same also with Baptism and Holy Orders.

And yes you always remain Catholic, just maybe not a practicing one.
I do hope that was a joke,
If I ask God to removed it, there is no reason he can not.
 
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mrtownzjoo

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Steph said:
And yes you always remain Catholic, just maybe not a practicing one.

thats the exact reason i want it anulled. i want there to be no confusion on their end that i am in any way catholic. im not out to hate catholics, or say they are all wrong, but i need to do this for my own fullfillment.
 
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epiclesis

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Okay for catechism, ( http://www.christusrex.org/www2/kerygma/ccc/searchcat.html )

read the following paragraphs on it:
698
1121
1304
1317
1582


it pretty much means 'receiving the Holy Spirit'...


I do hope that was a joke,
If I ask God to removed it, there is no reason he can not.

sorry, wasnt a joke. :| it's the same principal of trying to remove Baptism, why would you want to? :sorry: You receive grace by these sacraments, no reason you should want to remove them.
 
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Fiat

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Steph said:
Okay for catechism, ( http://www.christusrex.org/www2/kerygma/ccc/searchcat.html )

read the following paragraphs on it:
698
1121
1304
1317
1582


it pretty much means 'receiving the Holy Spirit'...




sorry, wasnt a joke. :| it's the same principal of trying to remove Baptism, why would you want to? :sorry: You receive grace by these sacraments, no reason you should want to remove them.
Ok, thank you I understand where you are at now and agree. As far as someone wanting to "remove a sacrament".....I also ask....WHY?
 
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pax

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DaTsar said:
I do hope that was a joke,
If I ask God to removed it, there is no reason he can not.
He could remove it, but I don't think He would. We can cut ourselves off from the graces received from the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation by sinning mortally, but we can never undo the mark that was left on our soul. Once a Catholic, someone is always Catholic regardless of whether or not they are practicing.
 
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mrtownzjoo

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steph, thank you SO much for that link. that is exactly what i needed; to see the official teachings of the catholic church. nothing beats a first hand source.

as for always being a catholic regardless of practice, i assure you i am no longer a catholic. i'll address this in a different forum as it kinda gets off topic.

-edit-

heres the other forum which i will continue this topic on:
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1113490#post1113490
 
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JillLars

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Once a Catholic, someone is always Catholic regardless of whether or not they are practicing.

What if they were never told this going into confirmation? If someone chooses to leave the Catholic church, and take on a different denomination, I think it is disrespectful to deny their personal choice and tell them what they are.

If I say I am Lutheran, then that means I am Lutheran, I don't need other people telling me "Oh, you're not Lutheran, you're just a non-practicing Catholic."

I don't feel the need to get it anulled, but I do think its a little disrespectful to have others tell me this, especially when it was not something I was informed of when I got confirmed.
 
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Achichem

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pax said:
He could remove it, but I don't think He would. We can cut ourselves off from the graces received from the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation by sinning mortally, but we can never undo the mark that was left on our soul. Once a Catholic, someone is always Catholic regardless of whether or not they are practicing.
Well ,I am not going to be sinning mortally.

So I say hello,my catholic brother.
Does that mean I can debate in your guys forum? :)
 
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Lynn73

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JillLars said:
There are those of us who were confirmed catholic but no longer attend catholic church. I have been told that because I was confirmed catholic, I will always be catholic, regardless of my desire to no longer be associated with that denomination. (I don't really care either way, but I get offended when people tell me I'm not lutheran, I'm just a not practicing catholic)
Well, JillLars, my opinion is that if you're no longer attending a catholic church, no longer with to be assiciated with the catholic church, and in your heart are no longer catholic; that's all the matters in the eyes of God. Before Him, you're no longer a catholic no matter what they say. That's how I feel about it, anyway. You're not a catholic.
 
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Lynn73

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Steph said:
No, Confirmation puts a character on your soul that lasts forever. It cannot be taken away. Same also with Baptism and Holy Orders.

And yes you always remain Catholic, just maybe not a practicing one.
Performing a rite or ritual does nothing to your soul if you're not truly born again in my opinion. People can go through all the rites, ceremonies, and rituals never having truly accepted Christ into the heart.

And no, if a person says they're no longer catholic and want not more association with the catholic church, they aren't catholic. The catholic church proclaiming it to be so, doesn't make it so in the eyes of God. They don't have the right to tell a person what they are and what they aren't.
 
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Theresa

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It's like baptism, it forgives Original Sin by infusing sanctifying grace. You can lose sancitfying grace but you can never again be guilty of Original Sin.

But you may fight against the Church all you like, but make no mistake:

Matthew 12

30 " He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.
31 " Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.



Luke 10
16 " The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me."


Matthew 18

17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.



Acts 8:

17 Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.


-There are many different charisms of the Holy Spirit. In baptism, He indwells you, in Confirmation, He falls upon one giving the gifts of wisdom, understanding and all those, while to some He gives also tongues and prophecy and what not.

In these words you speak you are rejecting Christ and the Holy Spirit to some extent. You may not agree, that is fine, but the Church decrees, not you or I. But if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be as a tax-collector or a Gentile. Pretty powerful words.
 
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mrtownzjoo

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Theresa said:
In these words you speak you are rejecting Christ and the Holy Spirit to some extent. You may not agree, that is fine, but the Church decrees, not you or I. But if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be as a tax-collector or a Gentile. Pretty powerful words.

Actually, i am rejecting God and the holy spirit, and the biblical account of christ (not necisarily jesus of nazereth) to every extent. I think your quotes speak for themselves in how archaic the bible teachings are. a gentile or a tax collector? c'mon now... thats saying that if you arent following god, then you are a sinner and puts non-christians in a very negative light. An atheist or non christian can be a good person believe it or not.
 
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Theresa

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Actually, i am rejecting God and the holy spirit, and the biblical account of christ (not necisarily jesus of nazereth) to every extent. I think your quotes speak for themselves in how archaic the bible teachings are. a gentile or a tax collector? c'mon now... thats saying that if you arent following god, then you are a sinner and puts non-christians in a very negative light. An atheist or non christian can be a good person believe it or not.

-not necessarily. Remember, the tax collector and the Pharisee, and also, the Gentiles who received the word of God and believed. But the truth is a double-edged sword. It can't be compromised.

The Church both proclaims the truth in love, but also does not deny that those of other religions, those who are guilty through no fault of their own, can also receive salvation.

"12. “But isn't God unjust to judge the whole world by Christian standards? “

God judges justly. “All who sinned without [knowing] the [Mosaic] law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law” (ROM 2:12). Even pagans show “that what the law requires is written on their hearts” (ROM 2:15) if we honestly consult our hearts, we will find two truths: that we know what we ought to do and be, and that we fail to do and be that.

Fundamentalists, faithful to the clear one-way teaching of Christ, often conclude from this that pagans, Buddhists, et cetera, cannot be saved. Liberals, who emphasize God's mercy, cannot bring themselves to believe that the mass of men are doomed to hell, and they ignore, deny, nuance, or water down Christ's own claims to uniqueness. The Church has found a third way, implied in the New Testament texts. On the one hand, no one can be saved except through Christ. On the other hand, Christ is not only the incarnate Jewish man but also the eternal, pre-existent word of God, “which enlightens every man who comes into the world” (Jn 1:9). So Socrates was able to know Christ as word of God, as eternal Truth; and if the fundamental option of his deepest heart was to reach out to him as Truth, in faith and hope and love, however imperfectly known this Christ was to Socrates, Socrates could have been saved by Christ too. We are not saved by knowledge but by faith. Scripture nowhere says how explicit the intellectual content of faith has to be. But it does clearly say who the one Savior is. The Second Vatican Council took a position on comparative religions that distinguished Catholicism from both Modernist relativism and Fundamentalist exclusivism. It taught that on the one hand there is much deep wisdom and value in other religions and that the Christian should respect them and learn from them. But, on the other hand, the claims of Christ and his Church can never be lessened, compromised, or relativized. We may add to our religious education by studying other religions but never subtract from it."



http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0020.html

-but this is a good article.

CCC:


"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336


847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338


John 9
41 Jesus said to them, " If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ' We see,' your sin remains.

-only God can judge men's hearts, whether they know and rejected Christ, whether they never knew Him through no fault of their own, whether they were blind or they could see, and the motives of their hearts. We let God be God, but we still cannot compromise what we know to be true.
 
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Theresa

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-I posted this elsewhere:

I really want people to understand this teaching of the Church. It is easy to misunderstand what it does and does not mean, but I thought this was a good explanation:



"Today, many who have been formed- or deformed – by a sort of pragmatism and utilitarianism, seem to ask: “When all is said and done, what is the use of believing? Does faith offer something more? Isn’t it possible to live an honest upright life without bothering to take the Gospel seriously?"


Pope John Paul II
"To such a question one could respond very succinctly: The usefulness of faith is not comparable to any good, not even one of a moral nature. The Church, in fact, has never denied that even a nonbeliever could perform good and noble actions. Everyone can easily agree with this. The value of faith cannot be explained, even though efforts are often made to do so, by merely stressing its usefulness for human morality. Rather, one could say that the basic usefulness of faith lies precisely in the fact that a person believes and entrusts himself. By believing and entrusting ourselves, in fact, we respond to God’s word. His word does not fall into a void, but returns to Him, having borne fruit, as was said very effectively in the Book of Isaiah (cf. Is 55:11). Nevertheless, God absolutely does not want to force us to respond to His word.


In this regard, the Council’s teaching, and especially the Declaration on Religious Freedom, ‘Dignitatis Humanae’, is particularly important. It would be worthwhile to quote and analyze the entire Declaration. Instead, perhaps quoting a few phrases will do: “And all human beings” we read, “are bound to search for the truth, especially with regard to God and His Church, and as they come to know it they are bound to adhere to the truth and pay homage to it” (Dignitatis Humanae I).

What the Council emphasizes here, above all, is the dignity of man. The text continues: “Motivated by their dignity, all human beings, inasmuch as they are individuals endowed with reason and free will, and thus invested with personal responsibility, are bound by both their nature and by moral duty to search for the truth, above all religious truth. And once they come to know it they are bound to adhere to it and to arrange their entire lives according to the demands of such truth” (Dignitatis Humanae 2). “The way in which the truth is sought, however, must be in keeping with man’s dignity and his social nature-that is, by searching freely, with the help of instruction or education…through communication and dialogue” (Dignitatis Humanae 3).

As these passages show, the Council treats human freedom very seriously and appeals to the inner imperative of the conscience in order to demonstrate that the answer, given by man to God and to His word through faith, is closely connected with his personal dignity. Man cannot be forced to accept the truth. He can be drawn toward the truth only by his own nature, that is, by his own freedom, which commits him to search sincerely for truth and, when he finds it, to adhere to it both in his convictions and in his behavior.

This has always been the teaching of the Church. But even before that, it was the teaching of Christ Himself exemplified by His actions. It is from this perspective that the second part of the council’s Declaration on Religious Freedom should be reread. There, perhaps, you will find the answer to your question.

It is an answer that echoes the teaching of the Fathers and the theological tradition from Saint Thomas Aquinas to John Henry Newman. The Council merely reaffirms what has always been the Church’s conviction. The position of Saint Thomas is, in fact, well known: He is so consistent in his respect for conscience that he maintains that it is wrong for one to make an act of faith in Christ if in one’s conscience one is convinced, however absurdly, that it is wrong to carry out such an act (cf. Summa Theolgiae 1-2. 19.5). If man is admonished by his conscience- even if an erroneous conscience, but one whose voice appears to him as unquestionably true- he must always listen to it. What is not permissible is that he culpably indulge in error without trying to reach the truth.

If Newman places conscience above authority, he is not proclaiming anything new with respect to the constant teaching of the Church. The conscience, as the Council teaches, “is man’s sanctuary and most secret core, where he finds himself alone with God, whose voice resounds within him…In loyalty to conscience Christians unite with others in order to search for the truth and to resolve, according to this truth, the many moral problems which arise in the life of individuals as well as in the life of society. Therefore, the more a good conscience prevails the more people and social groups move away from blind willfulness and endeavor to conform to the objective norms of moral behavior. Nonetheless, it often happens that conscience errs through invincible ignorance, without, for this reason, losing its dignity. But this cannot be said of the man who does very little to search for truth and good, or when through the habit of sin conscience itself becomes almost blind” (Gaudium et Spes 16).

It is difficult not to be struck by the profound internal consistency of the Council’s Declaration on Religious Freedom. In the light of its teaching, we can say that the essential usefulness of faith consists in the fact that, through faith, man achieves the good of his rational nature. And he achieves it by giving his response to God, as is his duty-a duty not only to God, but also to himself.

Christ did everything in order to convince us of the importance of this response. Man is called upon to give this response with inner freedom so that is twill radiate that veritatis splendor so essential to human dignity. Christ committed the Church to act in the same way. This is why its history is so full of protests against all those who attempted to force faith, “making conversions by the sword.” In this regard, it must be remembered that the Spanish theologians in Salamanca took a clear stance in opposition to violence committed against he native peoples of America, the indios, under the pretext of converting them to Christianity. Even earlier, in the same spirit the Academy of Krakow issued at the Council of Constance in 1414 a condemnation of the violence perpetrated against the Baltic peoples under s similar pretext.

Christ certainly desires faith. He desires it of man and he desires it for man. To people seeking miracles from Him He would respond: “Your faith has saved you” (cf. Mk 10:52). The case of the Canaanite woman is particularly touching. At first it seems as if Jesus does not want to hear her request that He help her daughter, almost as if he wanted to provoke her moving profession of faith “For even the dogs eat the scraps that fall from the table of their masters” (Mt 15:27). He puts the foreign woman to the test in order to be able then to say: “Great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you wish” (Mt 15:28).

Christ wants to awaken faith in human hearts. He wants them to respond to the word of the Father, but He wants this in full respect for human dignity. In the very search for faith an implicit faith is already present.....

From this point of view your question finds a rather complete response in the words of the Council’s Constitution on the Church. Therefore it deserves to be read once again: “In fact, those who through no fault of their own are not aware of the Gospel of Christ and of the Church, but who nonetheless search sincerely for God, and with the help of grace attempt to carry out His will, known through the dictates of their conscience-they to can attain eternal salvation. Nor will Divine Providence deny His help necessary for salvation to those who have not yet arrived at a clear knowledge and recognition of God, and who attempt, not without divine grace, to conduct a good life” (Lumen Genitum 16).

In your question you speak of “an honest, upright life even without the Gospel.” I would respond that if a life is truly upright it is because the Gospel, not known and therefore not rejected on a conscious level, is in reality already at work in the depths of the person who searches for the truth with honest effort and who willingly accepts it as soon as it becomes know to him. Such willingness is, in fact, a manifestation of grace at work in the soul. The Spirit blows where He wills and as He wills (cf. Jn 3:8). The freedom of the Spirit meets the freedom of man and fully confirms it.

This clarification was necessary in order to avoid any danger of a Pelagian interpretation. This danger already existed in the time of Saint Augustine, and seems to be surfacing again in our time. Pelagius asserted that even without divine grace, man could lead a good and happy life. Divine grace, therefore, was not necessary for him. But the truth is that man is actually called to salvation; that a good life is the condition of salvation; and that salvation cannot be attained without the help of grace.

Ultimately, only God can save man, but He expects man to cooperate. The fact that man can cooperate with God determines his authentic greatness…”

Crossing the Threshold to Hope"


-I just want to add that rejecting Christ after coming to know Him is not an option nor is willingly engaging in error. This only goes so far, but nonetheless, it's a breath of fresh air as far as I'm concerned, as opposed to Fundamentalism. I would still be Catholic if they didn't teach this but I came to see this truth before I learned that the Catholic Church teaches it and I'm glad that they do.

-but, agreement is not required.
 
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