"catholic confession"

[jukesk9]

Aggie,

You mean to tell me that Christ comes and specifically orders these people to become a minister or a priest?

"Lo, I am always with you." God doesn't talk directly to us but he does answer our prayers. A Catholic can not become a priest unless he can prove that he is called to become one. So in a way, yes, Christ knocks and they answer.

The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord.

1Cor.12
[1] Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be uninformed.
[2] You know that when you were heathen, you were led astray to dumb idols, however you may have been moved.
[3] Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus be cursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit.
[4] Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit;
[5] and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;
[6] and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one.
[7] To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
[8] To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit,
[9] to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
[10] to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
[11] All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

I for the most part agree with you on this issue. God does grab whomever He wants for His service. Moses is living proof that God doesn't call the qualified; He qualifies the called. Jonah is living proof that God won't give up on us if we're called to work miracles. Romans 9 says that God has the right. He IS God.

 

[aggie03]

In 1 corinthians 13 it also says that all gifts will cease when the perfect comes, or when the scriptures are complete - that is why we don't have those gifts anymore - what are your thoughts on that? And what verse is the quote that you gave from?

 

[aggie03]

Sorry for the addendum - how do you prove that you were called?

And God did speak specifically to the apostles. I agree that God is always with those who believe and obey Him, but He doesn't speak to us - He spoke to the apostles.

 

[jukesk9]

Aggie,

Here's more on the gifts of the Holy Spirit:

http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu36.htm#answer1

I agree that God is always with those who believe and obey Him, but He doesn't speak to us - He spoke to the apostles.

I disagree. He does speak to us. Obviously not literally but through prayer and the answering of prayers. Whatever we ask in faith, we will receive. How does one know if he's called? Somehow, someway God will let him/her know. I have blind faith in God and have had many prayers answered. He has let me know a few times what He desires from me. No, I'm not a loon nor crazy and He hasn't spoken to me. But He has answered my prayers in obvious ways to me.

Obviously you disagree with the concept of Apostolic Succession. But from the Scripture I cited, I believe that the Apostles handed down what they were taught and handed down the belief of Apostolic Succession. Understand something here, Catholics do not believe the Bible is the sole source of authority--the Bible doesn't even claim to be. We believe in Sacred Tradition; that is we believe in oral teachings that were handed down by Christ to the Apostles and to us. So, yes Apostolic Succession comes from Scripture but it also comes from Sacred Tradition.

So what did the Early Church say about Apostolic Succession?;

Pope Clement I

"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

Hegesippus

"When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the law, the prophets, and the Lord" (Memoirs, cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4:22 [A.D. 180]).

There are several more writings from other Early Church Fathers but clearly Apostolic Succession was understood in the Early Church as it was practiced. Clement of Rome wrote this in 80 AD! Less than fifty years after the death of Christ!

And for more on answering a call from God, check this link out:

http://vocation.com/

 

[KC Catholic]

I was not charitable in my post ~ so I edited it.

Aggie03, my apologies if I came off angry. I'm taking time off this weekend and maybe I can answer with more mercy and charity when I return.

Sorry.

 

[jukesk9]

You know what I'd really like to see is some Orthodox Christians appear on this MB and explain their position on Confession as well. I think they differ from Catholics in the respect that they do confession face to face (which I know is an option for Catholics although I have never done a face to face...not sure I want to).

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

If we're still on the same topic of confession, I'd like Wols or KC or someone to respond to my post about confessions. Sorry, I know that no one's purposefully neglecting it, but I think that it would be a good idea to have everything resolved before this thread inevitably loses its momentum. TTYL Jesus loves you!

 

[VOW]

To Defender:

I'll give your questions a try!

Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777 Two questions:
Why do people have the power to forgive sins?

PEOPLE don't have the power to forgive sins, Defender. That's God's job. Period. This is where the common misconceptions come from, when Catholics discuss the Sacrament of Reconciliation. The priest serves in place of God, he gives a fleshly ear to God on earth. The priest is empowered by the Apostolic Succession with this ability to serve in God's place. Think of his function as aANIMATING the uniform provided by God.

Forgiveness was obtained by all at the Cross. There's no argument about that by Catholics. However, our BEHAVIOR can distance us from God. Reconciliation is a beautiful sacrament instituted by Christ, to bring us back onto the path of salvation. Rememeber, Catholics believe that Salvation is a process, not an event. We reconcile ourselves with God, through the "mini counseling session," and then the priest forgives our sins "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." The PRIEST does nothing, GOD is the one doing the forgiving.

Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777 'Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven, and whose sins you retain are retained.'

This is telling you that you, everybody, has the power to forgive others in our hearts, and not hold it against them. We also have to ability to be stubborn and have the mindset to not forgive them for their trespasses against us. He's saying, "You make choices everyday; you choose whether or not you can forgive them for what they did to you, like my Father forgave you." Again, this is a paraphrase of what He would say nowadays in modern English.

But to whom did Jesus say, "Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive are forgiven, whose sins you retain are retained"? He had many, many, disciples, Defender, yet He only said this to the Apostles. This was a very limited power. He wasn't talking about them forgiving sins committed against THEM, but about sins committed against GOD. When Jesus taught the Lord's Prayer, the forgiveness of trespasses was intended to show how we must not hold grudges against others who have wronged us, hence the wording. But in this particular dialogue, there is no reciprocal situation. He's not giving the Apostles a prayer, He's empowering them to forgive sins, VIA THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777 Binding and loosing. A note here: Anyone else here attempting the Hebrew culture and language? Ani medaber rak ketsat ivrit, but I'm trying. In rabbinical terms my friend, binding and loosing was permitting what activities would be allowed in the church. Yes you can study the Law here tomorrow with guidance, no you cannot get married at the age of 17 in this temple(the effects of love!). He was to bind and loose laws.

Absolutely, context is EVERYTHING when studying the Bible! That is why Catholics depend upon the Church for interpretation. The Church has had 2000 years of scholarship, research, study, language and history resources, far beyond what you or I could accomplish in our entire LIFETIMES. And the Church also uses the the wisdom of the Early Church Fathers in Sacred Tradition. I can study Hebrew to my heart's content for my own personal enlightenment, but I know when I depend on my Church for guidance as far as Scripture goes, I don't need to re-invent the wheel!

So when you talk about binding and loosing being a function of the CHURCH, yes, exactly! The Church is the pillar and foundation of TRUTH, according to 1 Timothy 3: 15! The Church, established and maintained through Apostolic Succession, can bind and loose sins, by the power of the Holy Spirit!

It all fits together, fantastically! The more I study the Church, the more I find the truth! Amen, and praise God!



Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[isshinwhat]

Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777

Why do people have the power to forgive sins?

Every time a Sacrament is performed by the proper minister, the grace of God, through the power of the Holy Spirit, is made manifest. When one of the Apostles healed someone, who actually did the healing? Was it the Apostle or the Holy Spirit? The answer is obviously the Holy Spirit, but it was accomplished through the prayer of the Apostle and the faith of the recipient.

A part of the Apostles duty was the "ministry of reconcilliation," as Paul called it. They and those they appointed were to go out and bring reconcilliation to all who had fallen. Through the ministry of the Apostles and the faith of the people, the grace of God was poured out. Is it possible that some came asking for forgiveness that didn't have a sorrowful heart, but were instead selfishly motivated? Sure, and I am certain it happened. I pray for those people, though, because they mocked the power and mercy of God when they did this.

The same is true for penitents today, whether they are Catholics who were Baptized as children, or they are new converts. A part of the priest's ministry is the "ministry of reconcilliation." This isn't a part of my calling, or a nun's, it is a ministry associated solely with the ordained priestly vocation. If through unworthy reception anyone mocks the grace of God given through this sacrament, they are guilty of blasphemy. The same is true of a person who is Baptized as a vain, prideful show, and they scorn a great gift from God.

A priest cannot go around forgiving people at the drop of a hat, nor can he go around and bind people's sins to them forever like a warlock. Holy Orders do not give magic, but they allow the minister to become God's co-workers and He gives them the strength to help those sick who come looking for a Physician.

2 Corinthians 5:17-19
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.


Corinthians 3:9
For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.


Luke 10:16
"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

God Bless,

Neal

 

[pax]

This link may be of some interest to some of you:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Confession.asp

 

[aggie03]

Absolutely, context is EVERYTHING when studying the Bible! That is why Catholics depend upon the Church for interpretation. The Church has had 2000 years of scholarship, research, study, language and history resources, far beyond what you or I could accomplish in our entire LIFETIMES. And the Church also uses the the wisdom of the Early Church Fathers in Sacred Tradition. I can study Hebrew to my heart's content for my own personal enlightenment, but I know when I depend on my Church for guidance as far as Scripture goes, I don't need to re-invent the wheel!

The Bible tells us that we will stand alone for the things that we have on our judgement day - it doesn't ever tell us that we should depend on someone else's beliefs or scriptural interpretations for our own salvation. I just don't see where that comes from in the Bible. I see the verse from 1 Timothy 3 used a lot, but that is taken out of context almost entirely - that chapter is not about giving the church authority to do anything, rather it is discussing the qualifcations for those who would be spiritual leaders in a local congregation. I guess I might need to start another thread for this question, but I don't see where the authority for the government of the catholic church comes from either.

I also have a question about the defenition of the word church, I think that would help to clear up a lot of the places where we don't all mesh together. I guess that'll be a different question topic as well.

 

[Wolseley]

Well, Aggie, as I myself have mentioned time and again on this board and others, the Roman Catholic Church does not depend on the Bible all by itself as the sole rule for faith, doctrine, and belief. That is a Protestant practice.

The Catholic Church takes the Bible in concordance with Apostolic Tradition, and she interprets the Bible through the lens of everything else the Apostles had to say and through the defining statements of the Sacred Magesterium, and the Pontiffs and Councils throughout the last 2,000 years.

Until you understand that, you'll never be able to understand where Catholics are coming from. I've had a lot of people say that they think the biggest conflict between Catholic and Protestant theology is the issue of authority---i.e., of the Bible or of the Church. I disagree. I think the biggest conflict is over Sola scriptura vs. Scriptura et Traditio Apostolicus.

 

[kern]

And as VOW (I think) has pointed out before, conservative Protestants are obligated to reject apostolic tradition in order to preserve their own faith. If they accept apostilic tradition then they also have to accept all the Catholic teachings discarded by the Protestants, and in the end there would be no reason for them to remain Protestant.

-Chris

 

[Nilhil Obstat]

And that's a great point Kern. I would add that pride and ego may also be stumbling blocks as no one wants to be wrong about something they have held steadfast to as "truth".

 

[jukesk9]

So does a Catholic need to go to Confession to be saved?

Who doesn't need to repent of their sins to be saved? That's part of salvation to repent of sins. Acts 2:36 says to repent of your sins and be baptized.

Why not just go to God?

See, that's the whole thing. Catholics bang their heads time and time again when this question is posed. We are going to God. We are following the Bible (gasp!) when we confess our sins to one another.

 

[VOW]

To Defender:

Once again, with FEELING.

The PRIEST DOES NOT FORGIVE SINS. God does.

The priest grants you absolution "in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." The priest certainly doesn't CARE what you have done, or what you will do. I'm sure he's got a thousand other things to do than sit in a small, stuffy room and listen to Confessions! He's a servant of God, letting God use his ears, putting a human face in front of you, so you can unburden yourself of your sins, and reconcile yourself to God.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Julie]

"Whether there is scriptural evidence for something is irrelevant; using the Bible as the sole source of divine inspiration is a Protestant practice, not Catholic. "

"&nbsp;I think the biggest conflict is over <I>Sola scriptura</I> vs. <I>Scriptura et Traditio Apostolicus"</I>

Are these&nbsp;true Catholic statements then?&nbsp; If so there would seem to me to be a vast difference between a Catholic and a Bible believer?&nbsp; Different authorities?

Julie

 

[Avila]

Nope, not different authorities. Just the whole picture (Scripture through Tradtition) vs just a piece (Scripture only). You're missing a whole lot if you don't take what the Early Church taught in addition, well, what the Early Church wrote (face it, the Early Church wrote and compiled the canon of scriptures). They never meant for the 2 to stand apart, but rather to work in harmony to bring about a deeper understanding of what Christ taught us.

 

[VOW]

To Julie:

Catholics ARE Bible-believers! SACRED TRADITION&nbsp;is what GAVE YOU THE NEW TESTAMENT. Once the New Testament was compiled, it doesn't mean you throw everything else in the trash!

Nothing in Sacred Tradition contradicts Sacred Scripture.

Nothing in Sacred Scripture contradicts Sacred Tradition.



Peace be with you,
~VOW