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"catholic confession"

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by aggie03, Jun 19, 2002.

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  1. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

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    This is from a previous post, but I'm pretty sure that the question I have will be obvious from it, and it'll save me a lot of retyping:

     
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  2. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

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    Other people will provide a fuller answer (or you can use the "search" function to find several long discussions on confession, which would save people a lot of time). But I want to comment on one part of your post:

    Whether there is scriptural evidence for something is irrelevant; using the Bible as the sole source of divine inspiration is a Protestant practice, not Catholic.

    -Chris
     
  3. jukesk9

    jukesk9 Dixie Whistlin' Papist

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    Confession is one of my favorite topics and one of my favorite things about the Catholic Church. You said you can't find any Sciptural support for the Catholic (and Eastern Orthodox and in some cases Anglican) practice. I think the most solid reference is from John 20:21-23
    I think this is very important because only twice in the Bible is God described has having breathed; at Creation and now here. So, the Apostles went out with the authority to forgive sins or not to forgive sins. As Catholics, we don't believe that this Apostolic Authority ended with their deaths; rather we believe in Apostolic Succession which is that the authority and teachings of the Apostles have been handed down for centuries through Bishops. To me, this is a clear cut interpretation by the Church. Go out and forgive sins. Also, I believe this requires oral confession. How did the Apostles "hear" what was in one's heart and how does a priest do the same today?

    In Matthew 18:18, the Church is given the authority to bind and loose. How does the Church do this? Look at James 5:15 - sins are forgiven by the elders in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man's authority to forgive sins. Again in James 5:16 - we must confess our sins to one another. When is the last time a Protestant confessed his/her sins to someone else (other than God)?

    Look at Acts 19:18-And many of those which believed came, confessing, and showing their works. What are they confessing? I say they are confessing their sins since it already says they believed so then there is no need to confess Christ as savior if one already believes.

    Now, to the confessional. We are confessing our sins to God in the presence of a priest. The priest isn't the mediator. Christ is. The priest is just excercising his authority to forgive sins which is the authority that Christ gave the Church. It's a wonderful, humbling experience.
     
  4. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    What about James 5:16?
     
  5. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

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    When you read that passage from James in context, it's talking about someone who has been sick spitirually - like someone who has fallen away from grace. In this context, when you confess your sins to your brothers and sisters in Christ - not just a priest - and pray with them you will be healed spiritually.

    In the context of John 20:21-23 Christ is talking to the Apostles, and it was He who breathed on them. This is a specific ability given to the apostles - who have all died of this earth and gone to heaven. So still - I don't see how a priest can claim the authority to forgive you for your sins - that would be acting as a mediator between you and Christ which adds an extra step. The Bible specifically states that the only mediator between you and God is Christ. This is important because if we do something else we change the gospel that was preached by the aposltes - of which doing there are specific warnings against. This is why I need the scriptural evidence - I need to know the truth from the Bible, one way or the other.
     
  6. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

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    A note on Matthew 18:18:

    Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

    -- Matthew 18:18

    This doesn't give the church authority to do anything. Christ is speaking to those who would be the apostles - he's telling them of the gifts that they will be given and the revelation that will be shown to them. He's basically telling them that they won't be making anything up when they preach the gospel - but rather everything has already been declared in heaven, they are just revealing it to man. All of the apostles have also gone to heaven, so there is no one left on earth to which this passage is referring to, rather this is here so we know that what the apostles wrote is the truth.
     
  7. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

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    Aggie03 -

    That is your interpretation of Matthew, it is not the way the Church, who compiled and cannonized the bible sees that passage.

    Since the church is older, wiser and more experienced with interpreting the scriptures ~ I'll stick with her position.

    Thanks for playing!
     
  8. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    It all boils down to interpretation, Aggie; the Church has hers, which I adhere to, and you have yours. :)

    "Windage and elevation, Mrs. Langford. Windage and elevation."
    (John Wayne, The Undefeated.)
     
  9. jukesk9

    jukesk9 Dixie Whistlin' Papist

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    I have a problem with the stance that this authority was given to the Apostles and it stopped with their deaths. The Early Church, even before the Council of Nicea in 325 AD, believed in Apostolic Succession.
     
  10. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

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    So you're going to let someone else interpret the scripture for you - define your beliefs for you? Do you think that the people who came up with those beliefs are going to stand before God for you when you are judged? No, the only person who is respoonsible for your salvation is you. Letting someone else decide what you believe can be likened to letting someone else take your vacation for you and then just telling you how relaxed you are. Why would the Bible tell us to study the word of God, to be diligent with the truth if we weren't to read it and try to figure out what it says:

    "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth."

    2 Timothy 2:15

    It doesn't tell us to hinge our eternal salvation on the teachings of a denomination - it tells us to study the truth, the word of God.

    There are Biblical examples of people comparing what the apostles taught to scripture - they didn't even take the apostles at their word!

    "The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men."

    Acts 17:10-12

    If these people were noble-minded for examining the scripture to see whether or not what an apostle said was the truth, than don't you think that it would be a good idea to make sure that those who aren't apsotles are professing the truth.

    If you want to start a thread to discuss whether or not the catholic denomination's interpretations of various scriptures are correct we can do that - I'm not asking you to cite what you have been taught, nor am I asking you to believe what I tell you - you should go and read it for yourself with a clear mind, with no preconceptions and see what God has said, what the scripture says - you're responsible for your own salvation. By the way - I really don't consider my eternal salvation a game.
     
  11. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    Yup.

    1 Timothy 3:15 doesn't say, "Wolseley, the pillar and foundation of the truth". ;)

    I can be fallible, which means my interpretation of the Scriptures can be fallible. The Church is not fallible and therefore her interpretation of the Scriptures are not fallible either.

    Besides, I'm not arrogant enough to believe that I know more about Christianity than every other Christian for the last 1,969 years.
     
  12. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

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    "Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away."

    1 Corinthians 13:8-10

    This passage is speaking about the gifts that were given to apostles, that the apostles gave to others - and it says that when the perfect comes, all of these things which are done in part will be done away with. The scriptures are no complete - they are now perfect. This makes sense, for they are the word of God which is truth; as truth the scripture can be nothing but perfect. The reason why these gifts were given in the first place was to promote the cause of Christianity - because many didn't have actual copies of the OT or the writings of the apostles - especially in regions that weren't Jewish to begin with. These gifts were necessary to spread the gospel - but now that we have the complete perfect truth in the scriptures, we don't need these gifts any longer. We have all that we need in the Bible. So the abilities and the gifts that were given to the apostles are no longer existent.

    This also makes sense because we aren't bound by the Law any longer. Matthew 5:18 says that not a letter shall pass from the law until all is accomplished. This was done through the crucifixion of Christ and the completion of the scriptures.

    And as far as the apostolic succession, I can't find any evidence of that within the Bible - and it doesn't make any sense considering what had to happen for you to be an apostle:

    1) The Apostles were called and appointed by Christ
    2) The Apostles saw the ressurected Christ
    3) The Aposltes had special gifts imparted to them

    There may be others that I am not aware of (I am a fairly new Christian) but I don't see how anyone other than the apostles from the Bible could fit these requirements. I would also like to see the scripture to back up the idea of apostolic succession.
     
  13. jukesk9

    jukesk9 Dixie Whistlin' Papist

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    Aggie,

    I do not trust man to interpret the Bible for me. Look at all the different denominations. All disagreeing over this verse and that verse. The Oneness Pentecostals believe in baptism only in Jesus' Name. The Southern Baptists believe in OSAS. The Lutherans believe in Consubstantiation and the Catholics believe in Transubstantiation. The list could go on and on.

    No, I will let the pillar and foundation of truth, the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, to interpret the Bible for me. And I am secure in my eternal salvation.

    I have read with an open mind, over and over again, the Sixth Chapter of John. I have compared it with passages in 1 Corithians. I can not believe that the Lord's Supper is symbolic.

    I have examined with an open mind the Catholic Faith. I find nothing in conflict with Scripture. Jesus Christ is the center of the Catholic Church. Everything the Church teaches glorifies Christ. The Real Presence glorifies Christ, The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin glorifies Christ, the Immaculate Conception glorifies Christ, the Communion of Saints glorifies Christ. Again, this list could go on and on.

    Unfortunately, we can't do that in this forum. This is for a discussion on Catholic beliefs, not whether they are correct or not (hint--we believe they are correct :wave: ). You have a question about the Real Presence, ask. You have a question about Purgatory, ask. But please, do not say the Church's interpretation is incorrect. Feel free to disagree, but do it in a polite and respectful manner. God bless you and again, welcome to the forum.
     
  14. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

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    I'm with Wols here. If I start to interpret the Bible myself, who am I following? When I follow the Church, I feel I am following the Pillar and Foundation of Truth established by Christ. I don't believe the authority Christ gave the Apostles died with them, but was passed on, even to today.

    Neal
     
  15. jukesk9

    jukesk9 Dixie Whistlin' Papist

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    Well, I can.

    Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does is implement succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority.

    Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). Authority transfers beyond the twelve.

    Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop.

    Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

    So too are many minsiters, pastors, priests, etc. in each and every denomination.

    John 20:29 "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."

    So do we: the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit.
     
  16. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

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    I'm sorry if I appear to be trying "ruffle feathers" - that's really not my goal - I promise. My goal is the pursuit of truth - the will of God. I want to be able to worship Him with a clear conscience and know that I'm worshipping Him in the right way. The only way I feel that I can do that is by asking questions. I assure you I'm doing the same things in other places besides the catholic forum, and I don't believe that I've shown any bias one way or another. I ask you all to prove your beliefs and document them as best as you can so that I can more thuroughly understand them. I really appreciate all of your time and effort. I understand that someone questioning what you believe can be unnerving and even aggrevating, but I assure you that my intentions are noble. With that said...

    If the catholic church is infallible, why did Paul have to correct Peter about not eating with the gentiles, if the church was truly founded on Peter and he was the first pope, this would seem to make that claim invalid.
     
  17. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

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    This only took place to fulfill the scriptures, and this along with Paul are the only two times that it is specifically noted that someone besides the original 12 disciples were to be apostles - even then they still met the three requirements.

    I do think that the apostles could transfer their gifts, that much is readily available from reading the scriptures - but these gifts passed away with the completion of the scriptures. The Bible says nothing about the authority of an apostle being passed on - merely gifts being given for a brief time.

    Where is it listed that Ananias is a bishop? I can't find that. This is also the only example of this happening and it was specifically ordered by Christ. It's not recorded that this happenes anywhere else in the Bible, so there is no evidence to believe that it has happened again.

    You mean to tell me that Christ comes and specifically orders these people to become a minister or a priest? This is what He did with the aposltes.

    I agree that those who believe without having seen are to be blessed - but this has nothing to do with apostles. This is referring to having belief that Christ is the messiah without having physically seen Him. The only way that Thomas believed that Christ rose was to put his fingers in the wounds.

    I'm not familiar with what you're talking about here. Could you please explain a little more.
     
  18. Defender of the Faith 777

    Defender of the Faith 777 Well-Known Member

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    "'Peace be with you. As the Father sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven, and whose sins you retain are retained."

    Two questions:


    Why do people have the power to forgive sins? We have the Holy Spirit too. Sins and judgement, forgivness and correction is God's business, not ours. We cannot see their minds, their souls, or most importantly, their hearts. If we can forgive sins, why if I may ask did God have to live to die rejected and alone so that we can have salvation that we don't deserve? What is the point of judgement day if we, sinners, forgive sinners??

    'Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven, and whose sins you retain are retained.'

    This is telling you that you, everybody, has the power to forgive others in our hearts, and not hold it against them. We also have to ability to be stubborn and have the mindset to not forgive them for their trespasses against us. He's saying, "You make choices everyday; you choose whether or not you can forgive them for what they did to you, like my Father forgave you." Again, this is a paraphrase of what He would say nowadays in modern English.

    Binding and loosing. A note here: Anyone else here attempting the Hebrew culture and language? Ani medaber rak ketsat ivrit, but I'm trying. In rabbinical terms my friend, binding and loosing was permitting what activities would be allowed in the church. Yes you can study the Law here tomorrow with guidance, no you cannot get married at the age of 17 in this temple(the effects of love!). He was to bind and loose laws

    My friend, I confessed my sins of pride and lust RIGHT HERE on these forums. They are my two main weaknesses. I confessed my sins to you. Am I excused now? Can I skip this on judgement day because you, again, a sinner, has forgiven my sins?

    May I appropriately add, that the Bible says,"...there is no God." Yep. In plain text, right in about the very center of the Bible.

    What? The context? Oh, it says, "A fool says in his heart there is no God."

    Let's apply the same rules of context on a larger scale. If the Bible specifically says, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" LITERALLY and repeated throughout the OT and NT, then it's vital to your theology to check to see if it's Biblical.

    Sorry about the two questions part lol.
     
  19. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

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    Maybe this Easten Catholic practice of Confession will make things a little clearer.

    Two seats are arranged near the altar. One is for the priest and the other for the penitent. Near them is an icon of Christ. A prayer is said, then the penitent begins to confess his transgressions to Christ and to the priest, symbolically represented by the icon. The priest will then give counsel to the penitent. Finally the priest will announce the absolution in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

    If the penitent is sincere, then this beautiful misistry has served its purpose. If the man or woman confessing is not honest, then they have made a mockery of the grace that was made available to them and are guilty of blasphemy. Does this help any?

    The priest was sent forth by Christ, just as Christ was by the Father. Christ was sent out to reconcile mankind with the Father, that is the mission of the priest as well.

    Neal
     
  20. Defender of the Faith 777

    Defender of the Faith 777 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps reposting the entire thing would make a difference, lol. That's great that it's done in God's name, so is the laying on of the hands for the LDS salvation.
     
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