Catholic church getting rid of 'gay' priests

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Robbie_James_Francis

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Brennin said:
That is not remotely as grievous a sin.

Whilst I agree that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered, and worse than heterosexual sex out of marriage, I would definitely not say that one is "not remotely" as bad as the other. Both are grave matter.

A celibate homosexual priest is keeping his vows. A heterosexual priest sleeping with women is not.
 
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Monica02

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benjdm said:
"Archbishop Edwin O'Brien, who will oversee the seminary review, recently told the National Catholic Register that "anyone who has engaged in homosexual activity, or has strong homosexual inclinations" should not be accepted into seminaries, even if their last gay sexual activity was a decade ago."

http://www.tdn.com/articles/2005/09/17/this_day/news02.txt

Does this mean the catholic church admits homosexuality is a natural inclination and not a choice ? (Natural in this case meaning part of a person's nature.) Otherwise, being celibate could not be considered being homosexual, could it ? The priests in question would have 'chosen' to no longer be a homosexual.


I believe that the Church does not claim to know the reasons behind homosexuality. They recognize that the disorder exists but cannot ascertain whether people are born homosexual or somehow conditioned by their surroundings to be so. The Church does teach that homosexual activity is disordered and that homosexuals are called to remain celibate.
 
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Robbie_James_Francis

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Toboe said:
Mind posting a link to it.

Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraphs 1854-1864 said:
IV. THE GRAVITY OF SIN: MORTAL AND VENIAL SIN

1854 Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture, 129 became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.


1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God's law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.

Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.

1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:

When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery.... But when the sinner's will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial. 130

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent." 131

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother." 132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart 133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness." 134

While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call "light": if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession. 135
1864 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven." 136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. 137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

Link. :)
 
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Lifesaver

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From the Catechism of St. Pius X:

"8 Q: Which are the sins that are said to cry to God for vengeance?
A: The sins that are said to cry to God for vengeance are these four: (1) Willful murder; (2) The sin of sodomy; (3) Oppression of the poor; (4) Defrauding laborers of their wages.

9 Q: Why are these sins said to cry to God for vengeance?
A: These sins are said to cry to God for vengeance because the Holy Ghost says so, and because their iniquity is so great and so manifest that it provokes God to punish them with the severest chastisements. "
(my bolding)
 
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tgg

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Toboe said:
Sound like the salem witch trials to me. I don't get why they think that all gay people are pedophiles.

Because they are a load of pig ignorant dummies. I no longer wish to support the Catholic church or attend one because of this.


tgg
 
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Robbie_James_Francis

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Monica02 said:
Hey Robbie James,

You seem to be quite good at posting Catechism paragraphs. Could you please find the relevent paragraphs describing the Church's position on homosexuality and post them. I am familiar withthem but probably will not be able to find and post them.

Thank you.

:wave:

CCC paragraphs 2357-2359 said:
Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, 141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." 142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.



2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Link. :)

I have a Catechism search engine on my favourites...the link is here:

http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/index.cfm

Pax tecum!
:hug:
 
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Toboe

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Lifesaver said:
From the Catechism of St. Pius X:

"8 Q: Which are the sins that are said to cry to God for vengeance?
A: The sins that are said to cry to God for vengeance are these four: (1) Willful murder; (2) The sin of sodomy; (3) Oppression of the poor; (4) Defrauding laborers of their wages.

9 Q: Why are these sins said to cry to God for vengeance?
A: These sins are said to cry to God for vengeance because the Holy Ghost says so, and because their iniquity is so great and so manifest that it provokes God to punish them with the severest chastisements. "
(my bolding)

So its just the sodomy thats immoral.
 
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Robbie_James_Francis

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tgg said:
Because they are a load of pig ignorant dummies.

I don't think that this is directly because of the peadophilia scandals...the Church has said for a long time that men with homosexual tendencies ought not enter the priesthood. It is probably in part due to the abuse, however, that the Vatican is cracking down and re-iterating it's stance.

There are many reasons for not allowing homosexuals into seminaries, though. I for one, and I am certain that many Catholics agree with me on this, disagree with the Church's decision on this. But, as I said, we must submit ourselves to the Vatican in disciplinary as well as doctrinal matters as long as those disciplines remain as they are.

I understand your disagreement with these steps, and I feel much the same as you do. But I would really appreciate it if you didn't make blanket condemnation of the Bishops and of the Vatican, or speak so derrogatively of them all when you do not know all of their characters or motives.

I no longer wish to support the Catholic church or attend one because of this.

I really don't think you need to judge the whole Church based on this. As I said, many of us disagree (and no, I am not a dissident). Please don't be put off the whole Church by one decision that can be changed and that many don't like.

Rob
 
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Robbie_James_Francis

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Toboe said:
Anyway whats the catholic's stance on sodomy between a married man and woman.

Any sexual act that does not culminate in vaginal sex without artificial contraception would be seen as sinful. If the husband wilfully climaxes then he has committed a grave sin. As to whether or not anal sex can licitly culminate in vaginal sex...there are differing opinions. Looking at the reasons behind it is important...if they are selfish then it is sinful. Seeking the advice of one's priest and spiritual director would be strongly adviseable.
 
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Monica02

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One thing I feel needs to be said on this thread is that while very few would claim that all gays are pedophiles, the majority (>80%) of the sex-abuse (very few of which were true pedophilia) cases in the Church involved adolescent males. This would indicate that the Chuch does indeed have a problem with some gay priests. Certainly all sex-abuse needs to be adressed but to say that there is no connection, in the Church cases, to homosexuality would be unwise.

Anyhow, regarding the seminary reviews, other issues I hope are being adressed such as how well the seminarians are being formed on other Church teachings such as life issues. Many of our priests seem not to understand the wrongness or the severity of abortion and euthenasia. Some have authority issues and cannot comprehend that they have taken a vow of obedience to their bishop. I hope the Vatican visits help to improve our seminaries.
 
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UberLutheran

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1. The Catholic Church gets rid of all its gay priests.
2. The Catholic Church will not let women serve as priests or even deacons.
3. The Catholic Church refuses to relax its demands for complete celibacy for priests (now presumably all heterosexual).
4. Very few heterosexual men are going to be inclined to forego love, marriage and sex -- so very few men will be entering Catholic seminaries.

By getting rid of its gay priests, and few heterosexual men entering the priesthood -- exactly whom does the Church propose should lead its services?

Oh, well: that's Ratzinger's problem, not mine. I'm a Lutheran. :D
 
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UberLutheran said:
By getting rid of its gay priests, and few heterosexual men entering the priesthood -- exactly whom does the Church propose should lead its services?

Oh, well: that's Ratzinger's problem, not mine. I'm a Lutheran.

I'm sure that there will always be young and devout men with the holy vocation to the priesthood.
God wouldn't let His own Church wither away due to a shortage of priests.
 
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