Catholic altars

[Willie T]

You say that as if a table is not recognizable as a table unless its dimensions are exactly the same as the next one, yet you describe a church which uses grape juice, hot dog buns, and individual cups--none of which would have been present at the Last Supper.

Not at all. I'm saying we inherited a table that we didn't need, and it was always in the way, sitting out there somewhere on the floor. So, for 8 years, or so, it has been in a back room somewhere. We might not even be able to find it anymore.

 

[Willie T]

Like......... was any of the gold plated stuff churches use present at the Last Supper... or ever even something Jesus had?

 

[Albion]

Not at all. I'm saying we inherited a table that we didn't need, and it was always in the way, sitting out there somewhere on the floor. So, for 8 years, or so, it has been in a back room somewhere. We might not even be able to find it anymore.

OK, my friend. I guess I just thought your wording sounded on the sarcastic side. I see that this was just the way it struck me, not the way it was intended.

 

[Willie T]

No, I was just saying that, at least with us, communion is something each of us shares with Christ and the rest of our gathered family. We don't try to make a ritual of it.

It's in our hearts, not spread on a sanctified table, nor administered by an officiate.

 

[Albion]

No, I was just saying that, at least with us, communion is something each of us shares with Christ and the rest of our gathered family. We don't try to make a ritual of it.

It's in our hearts, not spread on a sanctified table.

Oh, it's not just in your hearts. You described your ritual pretty well.

 

[Willie T]

Oh, it's not just in your hearts. You described your ritual pretty well.

Yeah, lots of us still have some of the residue of the various religions we escaped from. We're kind of a crusty group of refugees.

 

[Albion]

Yeah, lots of us still have some of the residue of the various religions we escaped from. We're kind of a crusty group of refugees.

But in fact, you can't hold a communion service that is without all ritual. You have to have the bread and wine, and you have to eat and drink it. You have to distribute it in some way. It occurs at a certain point in the service. All of that constitutes a ritual. It's not as though there's something wrong with ritual. Some certain kinds of ritual, perhaps, but not ritual itself.

 

[Willie T]

But in fact, you can't hold a communion service that is without all ritual. You have to have the bread and wine, and you have to eat and drink it. You have to distribute it in some way. It occurs at a certain point in the service. All of that constitutes a ritual. It's not as though there's something wrong with ritual. Some certain kinds of ritual, perhaps, but not ritual itself.

That is a little like saying your meals, or baths, or TV watching, or car washing or lawn mowing are rituals. You do them because they are either necessary, wanted, or something you enjoy.

I think you are fully aware of what I mean by "ritual".

BTW, we receive communion at the beginning, the end, or sometimes somewhere in the middle of our services, because our services vary so much from week to week.

Sometimes people take the bread and juice to the seats of some of the old people who have mobility issues.

But you're right, we do have a ritual in that we hold services on Saturdays and Sundays. Oh yeah, it's probably a ritual that we all do communion in the same 10 or 15 minute period... though some people who might have been otherwise engaged, go up when things slow down, or when it is convenient for them to get up there.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Hmm. I know of several, and I probably haven't visited nearly as many Lutheran churches as you have.

LCMS/LCC?

And then there are the churches of other Protestant denominations I know which have no center "aisle." There are two I know of within a few minutes' drive.

Yup, lots of those.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Honestly curious, as I have no idea, is the existence or lack of, a central "aisle" of any importance or meaning??

So we can do this properly as shown in the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiTHGXtmE9U:)

 

[Bill McEnaney]

Doesn't sound like Bach.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Doesn't sound like Bach.

No, I'm unfamiliar with the tune; but I would guess it's a few centuries before "The Fifth Evangelist".

 

[Bill McEnaney]

That's okay, Mark. In the roughly 160-year-old church I attend, we hear a Juliard graduate play things I could only dream of playing. But I haven't heard him play even one Bach piece. Then again, I'm lucky I can recognize the Brandenburg Concerto #6, the one I first heard on a mustard commercial.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

That's okay, Mark. In the roughly 160-year-old church I attend, we hear a Juliard graduate play things I could only dream of playing. But I haven't heard him play even one Bach piece. Then again, I'm lucky I can recognize the Brandenburg Concerto #6, the one I first heard on a mustard commercial.

I'm just guessing here, but I think the Church in the video could be Swedish Mission Provence; the giveaway is no, and I mean NO female Clergy.

I attended a Tridentine Mass a few years back in Windsor Ontario at Assumption Church (Assumption Church is affiliated with a Jesuit Sem; Assumption College, which is part of the University of Windsor, daughters boyfriend studied engineering there). I went by myself, uninvited, because it has been many years since I had been to a traditional Latin Mass (My farming community was mainly Lutheran and Catholic, and we were good friends) There was lots of Bach, and well sung too. The Choir sounded "professional". On the way out I thanked the Priest, and he and others noted that I was not a familiar face there. I told them that I was an old school confessional Lutheran exploring our common Liturgical heritage as the Tridentine Mass and the Lutheran Mass were both products of the same Reformation. I also mentioned that there was an other Lutheran who participated in that Mass in a very central roll; he looked troubled and asked me "who?"; J. S. Bach I replied. The good father replied that Bach was always welcome at their Mass, as was I.

Apart from the obvious theological issues that continue separate us, the biggest let-down was the Sermon. I have known many Catholic Priests over the years, and they are very learned men, but it's been my experience that they are a little 'thin' on homilitics. Here in our Sem. in St. Catherine's Ontario, we have frequently had EO students in formation for the Priesthood take courses at our school. Homilitics is a popular one.

 

[Bill McEnaney]

I know what you mean about Catholic sermons, Mark, especially when I attend diocesan TLMs. I'm sure you know that for a Catholic, the sermon is not the most important part of the Mass. Sometimes it's even optional, because he can say Mass in an empty chapel or even in a prison cell.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I know what you mean about Catholic sermons, Mark, especially when I attend diocesan TLMs. I'm sure you know that for a Catholic, the sermon is not the most important part of the Mass. Sometimes it's even optional, because he can say Mass in an empty chapel or even in a prison cell.

Nor in our Mass either. When the Mass is celebrated, for example, in the hospital for one who is ill, there is no sermon. However, in the Mass or the Daily Office, the teaching authority of the Pastoral office should not, IMO be treated as an afterthought either. Scripture is not all that easy for some to understand, and with a bunch of people together, it is a great opportunity to expound on one or more of the appointed readings. To have a homily and not do so is dropping the ball.

I guess what I'm trying to say is you can have a good sound sermon that is 5-15 minutes long with little more effort than one the same length that is flat and empty.

One of my former Pastors stated that in the event that he has a bad sermon, the Gospel is still proclaimed in the readings, and preached in the liturgy.

 

[Bill McEnaney]

I'm happy to hear that you pray liturgically, even in a hospital room, where a sermon might not help the ill person much. About a year ago before my favorite priest passed away in a nursing home, I hoped a priest would pray the TLM there because that would have helped Fr. Sipperly more than any prayer I can pray. I wouldn't have known what to tell that exemplary priest about Holy Scripture that he didn't already know. Instead, I knelt at his bedside to pray litanies for him. After I left that night, he left us at midnight that night, or maybe I need to say "the next morning, January 2, 2013.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I'm happy to hear that you pray liturgically, even in a hospital room, where a sermon might not help the ill person much. About a year ago before my favorite priest passed away in a nursing home, I hoped a priest would pray the TLM there because that would have helped Fr. Sipperly more than any prayer I can pray. I wouldn't have known what to tell that exemplary priest about Holy Scripture that he didn't already know. Instead, I knelt at his bedside to pray litanies for him. After I left that night, he left us at midnight that night, or maybe I need to say "the next morning, January 2, 2013.

May Fr. Sipperly rest peacefully in our Lord's eternal care!

 

[Bill McEnaney]

May Fr. Sipperly rest peacefully in our Lord's eternal care!

Thank yo sooo much, Mark. I'll ask my guardian angel to tell him what you said.

I hope my latest PM didn't frighten you away when I told you that theologically and politically, I'm counter-revolutionary. Don't expect me to dress as a papal Swiss Guard with bayonets mounted on my wheelchair's back wheels. All I need now is a huge do to pull the chariot while the blades chop ice or whack weeds.

I didn't visit Fr. grave yesterday. I'm not even sure I'm strong enough to pound the cemetery vase's stake into the snowy ground here about 175 miles north of Manhattan.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Thank yo sooo much, Mark. I'll ask my guardian angel to tell him what you said.

I hope my latest PM didn't frighten you away when I told you that theologically and politically, I'm counter-revolutionary. Don't expect me to dress as a papal Swiss Guard with bayonets mounted on my wheelchair's back wheels. All I need now is a huge do to pull the chariot while the blades chop ice or whack weeds.

I didn't visit Fr. grave yesterday. I'm not even sure I'm strong enough to pound the cemetery vase's stake into the snowy ground here about 175 miles north of Manhattan.

I'm in Southern Ontario; you are not much farther south by the sound of it. It looks like there is some cold weather heading our way too.

BTW if your chariot has flailing blades, that's cool. In the spring you can come and visit me and roar up and down the street slicing and dicing the notorious Tree-Rat (squirrel); in the city, I just can't sit on the front porch with the 12 ga.