Catholic altars

[RisingSpirit]

Is there a biblical basis for the elaborate tables found in Catholic churches which are commonly called altars?

Even Qigong have altars. It just a place to park your intents

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Possibly, but it's only in Protestant churches that I ever see this design, as opposed to there being a central aisle. BTW, it's said that a central aisle, strictly speaking, is an aberration since church architecture didn't originally provide for a "central aisle." If you picture a Roman courtyard roofed over, there would be side aisles but only seating in the middle.

Actually, it was not until the Renaissance that seating of a permanent nature was provided in church buildings. To this day in Europe many churches have chairs that can be arranged in various positions. In smaller towns it is not uncommon for people to bring their own chairs to church and then take them home after the service. It is common Eastern Orthodox practice to stand throughout the entire service.

True, but we do like to process, and process orderly.

 

[Panevino]

Thought these were relevant
1 Corinthians 10:16-21
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body:for we are all partakers of that one bread.
Behold Israel after the flesh:are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God:and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils:ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Revelation 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Revelation 8:3
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

 

[WisdomTree]

Just wondering, why is this sort of thread only directed at Catholics? I mean, if it was exclusive I'd understand, but it's not. Considering the; Assyrian Church, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, High Church Anglicans, High Church Lutherans, et cetera all have these kinda stuff too.

 

[WisdomTree]

.

 

[Albion]

Just wondering, why is this sort of thread only directed at Catholics? I mean, if it was exclusive I'd understand, but it's not. Considering the; Assyrian Church, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, High Church Anglicans, High Church Lutherans, et cetera all have these kinda stuff too.

For one thing, some of those are not churches in themselves but just parties within one or another denomination. Then too, there are many more Roman Catholic parishes with altars than the equivalent with Assyrians or Copts, so of course they are going to be more newsworthy.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

For one thing, some of those are not churches in themselves but just parties within one or another denomination. Then too, there are many more Roman Catholic parishes with altars than the equivalent with Assyrians or Copts, so of course they are going to be more newsworthy.

It seems to me that the Assyrians and Copts may disagree with you on this.

 

[Albion]

It seems to me that the Assyrians and Copts may disagree with you on this.

...and say what? That there are more Assyrians and/or Copts than Roman Catholics? That there are more Assyrian and Coptic altars in the world than Roman Catholic ones?

OK. I'm more than ready to receive those claims.

 

[MKJ]

It seems to me that the Assyrians and Copts may disagree with you on this.

I think that the real answer is that many people likely to be on CF have never run into Assyrians or Copts. So they don't get mentioned.

No doubt in places like Egypt there are groups of Protestant missionaries sitting around having discussions about why those Copts insist on having altars.

 

[Bill McEnaney]

Is there a biblical basis for the elaborate tables found in Catholic churches which are commonly called altars?

I'd need to look up some Bible verses. But during the traditional Latin Mass, the altar represents Christ and should remind Catholics of when Aaron went into the holy of holies. Going into a Catholic Church should be like going from Earth to Heaven. That's partly why many old Catholic churches have huge front doors. I love the old churches, the statues, the stained-glass windows, and candles. They help me feel prayerfully contemplative. Sadly, some local "wreckovated" Catholic churches included round pews like stadium bleachers. You may want to read the Introduction to Williamson's Penguin edition of Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History, which that publisher calls "The History of the Church." It'll tell you that ancient liturgies with altars would remind Anglicans of their liturgies and that St. John wore priestly vestments. I'll look for my copy Eusebius's book when someone can reach my bookcase's top shelf for me, or an avalanche will knock me unconscious.

Aha! Mom found the book where Williamson writes:

Many of us in this land grew up in the conviction that the early Christians had very simple beliefs, the most primitive organization, and an almost complete lack of ceremonial. A study of Eusebius's pages will satisfy us that we have greatly deceived. Not only in his own statements, but in the testimonies of the earliest authorities on which he draws, we shall find inescapable proof that the Church of the first generations of Christians was one in which an Anglican of our own day would recognize most of the ideas and practices to which he is accustomed. We shall find the same line drawn between clergy and laity, the same division of the clergy into the three orders of bishops, presbyters, and deacons, the same practice of episcopal ordination and consecration, the same insistence on Apostolic Succession and on the establishment by Christ of one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. We shall find Christendom partitioned up into dioceses, archdioceses, presided over and ruled by bishops who are held in the highest esteem. Did not James, the Lord's brother, within a few years of the Saviour's death sit on the episcopal throne of Jerusalem and officiate in sacerdotal vestments? Was not John the beloved the disciple 'a sacrificing priest wearing the mitre'? There may have been a short period when services were held in private houses, but as soon as possible, churches began to rise, then cathedrals, and on these the builders lavished all their loving artistry, to the delight and sublimation of the beholder. No one can read Eusebius's account of how the cathedral of Tyre with all its elaborate symbolism, rose from the ashes, without thinking of Coventry. Truly, that generation and this are one.

Within the house of God, then as now, was a sanctuary, and within the sanctuary an altar, at which the priest celebrated the Eucharist, and when they had pledged themselves to keep the commandments of God and had sung hymns and antiphons to His divine Son, administered to the faithful the Body and Blood of the Lord. From the Sacrament notable sinners were excluded till they had shown themselves penitent and received absolution (Introduction 9-10).

Eusebius. The History of the Church.. Trans. G.A. Williamson. New York: Barnes and Noble, 1995. ISBN: 0-88029-022-6.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Almost, with the exception that there is no central aisle, which makes processions a bit different. In one, out the other.

Possibly, but it's only in Protestant churches that I ever see this design, as opposed to there being a central aisle. BTW, it's said that a central aisle, strictly speaking, is an aberration since church architecture didn't originally provide for a "central aisle." If you picture a Roman courtyard roofed over, there would be side aisles but only seating in the middle.

I know of only two Lutheran Churches in NA without a central Altar; ours and one in Indiana.

I'd need to look up some Bible verses. But during the traditional Latin Mass, the altar represents Christ and should remind Catholics of when Aaron went into the holy of holies. Going into a Catholic Church should be like going from Earth to Heaven. That's partly why many old Catholic churches have huge front doors. I love the old churches, the statues, the stained-glass windows, and candles. They help me feel prayerfully contemplative. Sadly, some local "wreckovated" Catholic churches included round pews like stadium bleachers. You may want to read the Introduction to Williamson's Penguin edition of Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History, which that publisher calls "The History of the Church." It'll tell you that ancient liturgies with altars would remind Anglicans of their liturgies and that St. John wore priestly vestments. I'll look for my copy Eusebius's book when someone can reach my bookcase's top shelf for me, or an avalanche will knock me unconscious.

Aha! Mom found the book where Williamson writes:



Eusebius. The History of the Church.. Trans. G.A. Williamson. New York: Barnes and Noble, 1995. ISBN: 0-88029-022-6.

The symbolic nature of the traditional altar and vestments are not in question. We bow to the Altar, we kneel before it, some still genuflect before the Eucharist on the Altar; this reverence is shown to Christ, not the wooden table (for those who would accuse us of doing such).

 

[Bill McEnaney]

I know of only two Lutheran Churches in NA without a central Altar; ours and one in Indiana.



The symbolic nature of the traditional altar and vestments are not in question. We bow to the Altar, we kneel before it, some still genuflect before the Eucharist on the Altar; this reverence is shown to Christ, not the wooden table (for those who would accuse us of doing such).

Catholics need background information, too. Years ago, when I attended an evangelical, nondenominational service, a young man frightened me, because during sermon, he prostrated and she laughed hard while she rolled on the floor. To reassure us then, the minister something like, "Don't worry. That always happens." After the service, the prostrator seemed offended when I asked whether he felt well. Charismatic services still scare me. That may help explain why the traditional Latin, Tridentine, Mass is the only liturgy where I feel serene.

 

[Albion]

I know of only two Lutheran Churches in NA without a central Altar; ours and one in Indiana.

Hmm. I know of several, and I probably haven't visited nearly as many Lutheran churches as you have.

And then there are the churches of other Protestant denominations I know which have no center "aisle." There are two I know of within a few minutes' drive.

 

[Willie T]

When we leased the building we are now using because we needed a larger auditorium ("sanctuary" to those who are sticklers), they had one of those "IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME", tables. I think it is stored away in a back room somewhere.

We file along the outer walls to the front where there are elevated counter-tops on both sides of the stage. On each counter surface are three things:
1. A tall glass of grape juice
2. A bowl of broken bread pieces (last week it was hot dog buns we had left over from a cookout)
3. A bowl of individual juice servings for people who have problems with shared "dipping"

Since there are around 15 different denominations represented at our congregation, the styles of receiving communion vary greatly... from fairly ritualistically accented motions with "crossing" and genuflecting, to Jewish bowing and nodding, to just dipping and walking on. Some families go up to the stairs of the stage, and kneel. Some stand. Some mumble some words. Some raise their hands over their heads.

Most get the bread, dip it, and return to their seats where some remain standing, some sit, and some kneel.

 

[abysmul]

Honestly curious, as I have no idea, is the existence or lack of, a central "aisle" of any importance or meaning??

 

[Albion]

Honestly curious, as I have no idea, is the existence or lack of, a central "aisle" of any importance or meaning??

Nope. It was just an historic footnote. Or a piece of historic trivia.

We often say "center aisle" but that's actually a contradiction in terms since "aisle" refers to a walkway along the side of the church.

 

[Willie T]

Honestly curious, as I have no idea, is the existence or lack of, a central "aisle" of any importance or meaning??

Isn't that mainly so everyone can easily see any processional activity the leaders happen to do?

Oh yeah, it is good for weddings, too.

 

[Albion]

When we leased the building we are now using because we needed a larger auditorium ("sanctuary" to those who are sticklers), they had one of those "IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME", tables. I think it is stored away in a back room somewhere.

Oh, you mean a table such as Jesus sat at when the Last Supper was held and he instituted the ordinance you are observing. And those words, they're the ones he spoke on that occasion.

What's the religious symbolism in elevated countertops on either side of a stage?

 

[Willie T]

Oh, you mean a table such as Jesus sat at when the Last Supper was held and he instituted the ordinance you are observing. And those words, they're the ones he spoke on that occasion.

What's the religious symbolism in elevated countertops on either side of a stage?

Yeah, that 20 foot table with the 13 high-backed chairs.

The symbolism of elevated counter-tops? Probably so there would be some place to set the bowls and cups, and people wouldn't have to bend over to pick them up off the stage surface. They're kind of built into the stage. They are about 32" high... from the floor level.

 

[Albion]

Yeah, that 20 foot table with the 13 high-backed chairs.

You say that as if a table is not recognizable as a table unless its dimensions are exactly the same as the next one, yet you describe a church which uses grape juice, hot dog buns, and individual cups--none of which would have been present at the Last Supper.