Catholic altars

[bbbbbbb]

Is there a biblical basis for the elaborate tables found in Catholic churches which are commonly called altars?

 

[St_Worm2]

Any RC's care to weigh in on this one?

 

[kellhus]

Is there a biblical basis for the elaborate tables found in Catholic churches which are commonly called altars?

The fact that worship of God has involved altars since the beginning? Does there even need to be a biblical basis for altars? Is there a biblical basis for pulpits and overhead projectors and PowerPoint?

 

[St_Worm2]

The fact that worship of God has involved altars since the beginning? Does there even need to be a biblical basis for altars? Is there a biblical basis for pulpits and overhead projectors and PowerPoint?

Hi Kellhus, the worship of God used to involve altars when animal sacrifices were going on in the OT, but the need for ongoing sacrifices to appease God ended when the way into the Holy of Holies was made available (by the once for all time sacrifice of Christ). Priests who perform sacrifices and altars to perform them on are no longer necessary (see Hebrews 10). That's why we have "pulpits" instead of "altars" (well, a lot of us do anyway .. ).

--David

"By one offering He has perfected for all time
those who are being sanctified"
Hebrews 10:14​

 

[kellhus]

Hi Kellhus, the worship of God used to involve altars when animal sacrifices were going on in the OT, but the need for ongoing sacrifices to appease God ended when the way into the Holy of Holies was made available (by the once for all time sacrifice of Christ). Priests who perform sacrifices and altars to perform them on are no longer necessary (see Hebrews 10). That's why we have "pulpits" instead of "altars" (well, a lot of us do anyway .. ).

--David

"By one offering He has perfected for all time
those who are sanctified"
Hebrews 10:14

Where did you get this idea that altars must only be used for animal sacrifice? Where did you get the idea that churches must refrain from anything that is not strictly necessary?

 

[Albion]

The reason for a solid structure rather than the obvious replica of the table used by Christ at the Last Supper is because early Christians in the catacombs took to using the coffins of fallen fellow Christians.

The re-sacrificing of Christ idea developed later, and the structure was made to look more and more like a pre-Christian altar. IOW, it's not Biblical except that the Hebrews did offer slain animals in sacrifice as we all know.

 

[St_Worm2]

Where did you get this idea that altars must only be used for animal sacrifice? Where did you get the idea that churches must refrain from anything that is not strictly necessary?

Hi Kellhus, I'm just telling you why Protestant churches, particularly of the Reformed persuasion, don't have altars. Evangelical churches followed suit. While we still have a table up front somewhere, we call it a "Communion Table", not an "altar".

Many churches w/o physical "altars" still have "altar calls", but those are nothing more than a call to come forward to accept Christ or to ask the Lord for forgiveness, etc.

We Reformed, who believe in the "Real Presence" of Christ in the elements, believe that His is a spiritual presence, not a bodily one. His body and blood remain in Heaven, so no actual "sacrifice" occurs (as it is said to do in other traditions). Thus, no need for an altar.

The idea of an "altar" in a NT church is, strictly speaking, not Biblical, but due to being so heavily steeped in OT and RC tradition, some churches (who don't subscribe to a real bodily presence and therefore a real sacrifice), still talk of a particular table and/or place in their church as being an "altar".


--David
p.s. - if you don't mind me asking, what kind of church do you attend?

 

[bbbbbbb]

The reason for a solid structure rather than the obvious replica of the table used by Christ at the Last Supper is because early Christians in the catacombs took to using the coffins of fallen fellow Christians.

The re-sacrificing of Christ idea developed later, and the structure was made to look more and more like a pre-Christian altar. IOW, it's not Biblical except that the Hebrews did offer slain animals in sacrifice as we all know.

Thank you. That has been my understanding, as well.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Is there a biblical basis for the elaborate tables found in Catholic churches which are commonly called altars?

In my experience, the altar, while it's structure may remain in many Catholic Churches, a simpler table form has came into use following Vatican II; like this:

 

[bbbbbbb]

In my experience, the altar, while it's structure may remain in many Catholic Churches, a simpler table form has came into use following Vatican II; like this:

Yes, that is true. The table also has been moved from the east wall of the sanctuary into the nave so that the priest now faces the people when saying Mass. On one hand, the priest is symbolically no longer offering up to God the sacrifice of the Mass as he faces east toward God alone and on the other hand the presence of God is now perceived as being among the people and not bound up in an altar. I find the new theology to be really quite interesting and a general improvement. What do you think?

 

[Albion]

Yes, that is true. The table also has been moved from the east wall of the sanctuary into the nave so that the priest now faces the people when saying Mass. On one hand, the priest is symbolically no longer offering up to God the sacrifice of the Mass as he faces east toward God alone and on the other hand the presence of God is now perceived as being among the people and not bound up in an altar. I find the new theology to be really quite interesting and a general improvement. What do you think?

I think you may be mistaken about the symbolism so far as it goes in the RCC. The visibility issue is just that--letting the congregation see what's happening--and the meaning of the Eucharist may have changed slightly, but not as far as it ought. OTOH, all of these changes were part of the Reformation, so of course I approve, even if it took Rome 500 years to catch up to the extent that it has.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think you may be mistaken about the symbolism so far as it goes in the RCC. The visibility issue is just that--letting the congregation see what's happening--and the meaning of the Eucharist may have changed slightly, but not as far as it ought. OTOH, all of these changes were part of the Reformation, so of course I approve, even if it took Rome 500 years to catch up to the extent that it has.

I agree that I could well be overly optimistic about the symbolism and also agree that the changes have been good, if so delayed, and that Rome has far to go yet.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Most (not all) of our Churches, including the new ones, have retained the ad orientem altars, yet in Lutheran practice, we do not view the Eucharist, or the Eucharistic liturgy as a "sacrifice".

Nor do we believe that the altar is holy in and of itself. Rather, it is symbolic of Christ's throne in heaven, and thus becomes for us, a focal point of worship. Even in our Churches that have a free standing altar, liturgically it is used ad orientem for almost all of the Liturgy except the Service of the Sacrament.

This is my Church, and we have a traditional ad orientem altar:

 

[Albion]

This is my Church, and we have a traditional ad orientem altar:

FWIW, that looks to me like the perfect example of a Lutheran church down to the last detail.

 

[DamianWarS]

Christians in general (not just Catholics) famously love to have OT themes throughout like priests and alters which are perfect examples. Sometimes these themes become blurred with doctrine... On some levels officially and other levels it is perceived this way. The system of church as a whole has allowed these "themes" to be unchecked and many times they send counter-gospel messages... or at the very least they are confusing to the masses and lead to misunderstanding the gospel. The "alter" whether physical or abstract tends to superimpose OT values on the church when it is emphasized as a part of the church. If we make elaborate structures and call them holy names then place them at focal point in our religious modern day "temples" then they are bound to be put on another level that perhaps was never the intention and misrepresent the gospel. As a whole we should seek to avoid such confusions and I believe we need to have a general sweep and deemphasis of the non-essentials... not a destruction of them but a deemphasis of them... because let's face it they are very grossly misrepresented either officially or unofficially or by those in church or out of the church and the sum of our christians living can get along without them. Never at the cost of the gospel should hold on to things so tightly. Then a general revival and emphasis on the essentials needs to be happen as the resulting product. I'm not saying to tear down our churches but I am saying we should nurture systems that value people over objects and the NT over the OT in our christian living... preaching it is not good enough and it needs to happen in the core style and design of this system we call "church" because they sometimes have the strongest notes.

 

[Albion]

Christians in general (not just Catholics) famously love to have OT themes throughout like priests and alters which are perfect examples.

It's actually not a "perfect" example, at least not in the case of "priest." The New Testament uses the term "presbyter," which is still used in many circles. The word "priest" became popular in English speaking lands, but unless you're a Catholic and think you actually are sacrificing Christ again, it's just jargon. It's certainly not something you can pin on "Christians in general."

 

[bbbbbbb]

It's actually not a "perfect" example, at least not in the case of "priest." The New Testament uses the term "presbyter," which is still used in many circles. The word "priest" became popular in English speaking lands, but unless you're a Catholic and think you actually are sacrificing Christ again, it's just jargon. It's certainly not something you can pin on "Christians in general."

I much prefer "elder" to "priest" as a translation of presbyter. Episkopos can be transliterated as "bishop" but that word has taken on many meanings foreign to the original Greek word. As a result I prefer "overseer" to "bishop" and believe that elders and overseers biblically constitute the same office.

However, I digress. I find the evolution of the table used for communion into an altar for Christian sacrifice to be lamentable, at best. I don't have any particular objection to placement of the table within the church and understand various arguments for various locations. I think that it should be clearly understood to be a table and not an altar both in its construction and in its terminology.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

FWIW, that looks to me like the perfect example of a Lutheran church down to the last detail.

Almost, with the exception that there is no central aisle, which makes processions a bit different. In one, out the other.

 

[Albion]

Almost, with the exception that there is no central aisle, which makes processions a bit different. In one, out the other.

Possibly, but it's only in Protestant churches that I ever see this design, as opposed to there being a central aisle. BTW, it's said that a central aisle, strictly speaking, is an aberration since church architecture didn't originally provide for a "central aisle." If you picture a Roman courtyard roofed over, there would be side aisles but only seating in the middle.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Possibly, but it's only in Protestant churches that I ever see this design, as opposed to there being a central aisle. BTW, it's said that a central aisle, strictly speaking, is an aberration since church architecture didn't originally provide for a "central aisle." If you picture a Roman courtyard roofed over, there would be side aisles but only seating in the middle.

Actually, it was not until the Renaissance that seating of a permanent nature was provided in church buildings. To this day in Europe many churches have chairs that can be arranged in various positions. In smaller towns it is not uncommon for people to bring their own chairs to church and then take them home after the service. It is common Eastern Orthodox practice to stand throughout the entire service.