Catechism

[Michelina]

I will be more cautious what I question from now on. Christy

Christy, please continue to be as you have been. You are a great contributor to OBOB, just as you are. You brought up something that is INDEED very difficult for us to understand. The SS citations do address this Mystery but do not explain it, because our limited minds really can't fully understand it.

When Aquinas wrote about Original Sin and how the Incarnation was the only solution to the problem Sin created, he made his famous remark "O Felix Culpa" which means "O Happy Fault" because he saw that the Incarnate Word's death would not only redeem us from the penalty for sin but would also make possible the beyond-the-imagination Divinization that we will fully have in heaven but which we already have here on earth to a lesser degree.

I wrote something on another thread that I will try to retrieve and post here.

But I'll make a simple analogy that will help you to understand: think of Divine Life (which is the actualization of the Divine Nature) as electricity. The generator of this electricity is the Most Holy Trinity. By baptism and sanctifying Grace we receive this electricity (via invisible wires of course) into our souls, spirits and bodies. It electrifies us, divinizes us by participation.

We do not become indiviidual gods but will be 'gods' by perfect unity with God through our incorporation into the Logos (Jesus). We have this Life in us now and will have it completely (to the extent of our limited natures) in heaven. Thus Aquinas calls baptism "the inchoate beginning of eternal life".

Like many of our other revealed truths (the Incarnation, Transubstantion, etc) the Nature of Sanctifying Grace just blows the mind. No human could have even dreamt of such gifts!

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Good point...I would never have dreamt up the Trinity if I made it up...it is too illogical to try and defend. But its true, and it is beyond human reason...

 

[Michelina]

Defensor,
One day when I was studying Transubstantiation, the enormity of this miracle (impanation, panis=bread) hit me. That God would become man blows the mind but that He would make Himself one with us through such a humble substance as bread is completely beyond belief. But I believe it anyway, because He said it! I thought to myself: what a God we have! Only He could have thought of this!

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

http://www.marysremnant.org/Schism/

Defensor,
One day when I was studying Transubstantiation, the enormity of this miracle (impanation, panis=bread) hit me. That God would become man blows the mind but that He would make Himself one with Him through such a humble substance as bread is completely beyond belief. But I believe it anyway! I thought to myself: what a God we have! Only He could have thought of this!

Amen! Amen! What a mighty God we serve!!

 

[KennySe]

For the record, I understood nyj's posts, and everybody should cut HIM some slack here.

***

For my Catholic brethren and for the lurkers (because I know they are always around),
you must consider that all Catholics are not the same, as all members of one family are not the same.
It's called individuality.

And someone who has been a Catholic for some time, and has been in debates and discussions with non-Catholics for some time; comes at a new discussion with a different (but not wrong) perspective than someone who is newer to Catholicism.

I have seen newer members chastise older members, as theough the nwer members knew better.

In truth, the new members have a different perspective (but not wrong) than the older member, who is equally not wrong with his/her perspective.

 

[Christy4Christ]

For the record, I understood nyj's posts, and everybody should cut HIM some slack here.

***

For my Catholic brethren and for the lurkers (because I know they are always around),
you must consider that all Catholics are not the same, as all members of one family are not the same.
It's called individuality.

And someone who has been a Catholic for some time, and has been in debates and discussions with non-Catholics for some time; comes at a new discussion with a different (but not wrong) perspective than someone who is newer to Catholicism.

I have seen newer members chastise older members, as theough the nwer members knew better.

In truth, the new members have a different perspective (but not wrong) than the older member, who is equally not wrong with his/her new perspective.

I don't think anyone but me came down on nyj and that was not because of anything he said on doctrine, it was for the attitude I feel he was presenting to me. He seemed to become defensive with me and I don't know where that came from. I never chastised or bashed him or Catholism, I simply had a question and I felt sort of attacked in a slight way. This hasn't been the first time there has been an interaction like this between nyj and myself. I don't see who you are saying needs to take it easy on him? I haven't read anyone say anything bad to him but me. I don't think I was particularly hard on him, I just felt I should make him aware that he was treating me a little badly at that time. IMO...

 

[Christy4Christ]

Anyway just forget it OK? I doubt anyone is mad at him over me? Who am I anyway?


Peace

 

[PeterPaul]

We need to understand that not everyone here is a philosopher. I understand nyj in the need to understand language and make sure what he says is important and careful. I commend him on that, because not everyone chooses to do so.

However, again, not everyone is so particular, especially when trying to understand the faith. Sometimes we need to "read between the lines" and sometimes we need to be compassionate of the different levels we are at. Some people are new to debate and philosophy, and are not so careful with their words. I give them that benefit which I would not to let's say, a non-Catholic or atheist. There I would dissect their words, not to be mean, but to let them see what they saying and how flawed it might be.

I think nyj is right. Sometimes it is futile to argue with people who don't want to hear it. But, I like Christy4Christ, because she is bold enough to try and help people the way she has been by others enter into the fullness of the Church.

Let's not fight friends. Let's be thoughtful. Sometimes its hard, because we are becoming better typists and not thinking before we type. LOL

Love you guys!

 

[KennySe]

Peace be with you, Christy.

I was stating my perspective.

You stated your perspective "I felt sort of attacked in a slight way", and I perceived others as consoling you as though they perceived nyj as the big bad wolf.

Just my perspective.

 

[KennySe]

PeterPaul,
thank you for your post.

 

[KennySe]

Anyway just forget it OK? I doubt anyone is mad at him over me? Who am I anyway?

Peace

It is forgotten.

Peace.

 

[Michelina]

I will be more cautious what I question from now on. Christy

Christy, please continue to be as you have been. You are a great contributor to OBOB, just as you are. You brought up something that is INDEED very difficult for us to understand. The SS citations do address this Mystery but do not explain it, because our limited minds really can't fully understand it.

When Aquinas wrote about Original Sin and how the Incarnation was the only solution to the problem Sin created, he made his famous remark "O Felix Culpa" which means "O Happy Fault" because he saw that the Incarnate Word's death would not only redeem us from the penalty for sin but would also make possible the beyond-the-imagination Divinization that we will fully have in heaven but which we already have here on earth to a lesser degree.

I wrote something on another thread that I will try to retrieve and post here.

But I'll make a simple analogy that will help you to understand: think of Divine Life (which is the actualization of the Divine Nature) as electricity. The generator of this electricity is the Most Holy Trinity. By baptism and sanctifying Grace we receive this electricity (via invisible wires of course) into our souls, spirits and bodies. It electrifies us, divinizes us by participation.

We do not become indiviidual gods but will be 'gods' by perfect unity with God through our incorporation into the Logos (Jesus). We have this Life in us now and will have it completely (to the extent of our limited natures) in heaven. Thus Aquinas calls baptism "the inchoate beginning of eternal life".

Like many of our other revealed truths (the Incarnation, Transubstantion, etc) the Nature of Sanctifying Grace just blows the mind. No human could have even dreamt of such gifts!

This is the thing I refer to. It was on Kenny's "The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass" thread a few days ago. It's about how God 'divinizes' us gradually through the Mass, etc.

"The Mass is a mystical event. Thru the Sacrament of Holy Orders, Jesus mystically (and miraculously) re - presents the kenosis of Calvary. In His Resurrected physical presence in the universe, He is actively present and active. The Mass, along with the MBSacrament which cannot be mystically separated from it, are a continual repetition of the essence of the Divine Word in time
and space. It was the purpose of the Incarnation to suffuse the created universe with the very Essence of its creator, thus restoring all things in Christ - making all things NEW."

 

[ps139]

Anyway just forget it OK? I doubt anyone is mad at him over me?

I am. I don't like how you were treated. I did not see the gentleness and respect that Peter urges us to have in apologetics.
To be honest, I had never seen that in the Catechism before I saw your post. It is weird and I did not understand it. Luckily I had someone who is well-versed in Aquinas explain it to me. I also think Bastoune gave a great explanation. And, yes, I think it should be re-worded. Something like that, which is hard to understand at first if you do not understand Aquinas and where the statement came from and easy ammunition for anti-Catholics who love to quote the Catechism out of context to make the Church look bad.

If you had not posted that question, I would not have known what 460 meant, and if I ever had to explain it to someone I wouldn't know how to.

The statement may have been great and clear in Latin, but we do not speak Latin. And the Catechism can be re-worded, especially because it is a translation.

Who am I anyway?

One of my best friends on the board, someone who starts great, great threads, someone who asks the questions others won't, a source of spontaneity and humor that I love, and my sister in Christ.
Your testimony on OBOB has no doubt inspired others, including myself (and you alone know what I mean by that), to walk closer with God, to follow the Truth even though we have doubts and the road looks scary. You make such great contributions to the family we have here in the forum, and it makes me angry when we here in OBOB do not treat our fellow Catholics with the respect and gentleness they deserve. You have a knack for bringing out the best in people.

 

[Christy4Christ]

I am. I don't like how you were treated. I did not see the gentleness and respect that Peter urges us to have in apologetics.
To be honest, I had never seen that in the Catechism before I saw your post. It is weird and I did not understand it. Luckily I had someone who is well-versed in Aquinas explain it to me. I also think Bastoune gave a great explanation. And, yes, I think it should be re-worded. Something like that, which is hard to understand at first if you do not understand Aquinas and where the statement came from and easy ammunition for anti-Catholics who love to quote the Catechism out of context to make the Church look bad.

If you had not posted that question, I would not have known what 460 meant, and if I ever had to explain it to someone I wouldn't know how to.

The statement may have been great and clear in Latin, but we do not speak Latin. And the Catechism can be re-worded, especially because it is a translation.

One of my best friends on the board, someone who starts great, great threads, someone who asks the questions others won't, a source of spontaneity and humor that I love, and my sister in Christ.
Your testimony on OBOB has no doubt inspired others, including myself (and you alone know what I mean by that), to walk closer with God, to follow the Truth even though we have doubts and the road looks scary. You make such great contributions to the family we have here in the forum, and it makes me angry when we here in OBOB do not treat our fellow Catholics with the respect and gentleness they deserve. You have a knack for bringing out the best in people.

I needed to hear that from you especially because you brought me here in the first place and I am glad you aren't sorry you did. I was upset today and I didn't even want to come back here, not because of what happened, I wouldn't let that make me leave the forum or my faith.

What made me crazy was all of the stuff I didn't understand about everything in general. I wasn't in the right frame of mind to really even process the explanations today, let alone anything else.

I left here this afternoon and went to do some stuff in the office. While I was driving I was listening to music and thinking about my life. Suddenly everything sort of started to fall into place. A year ago I was a really messed up girl, I was high all the time, I don't just mean sometimes, I mean ALL the time. There wasn't a day that went by that I was straight.

I was a bad mother to my kids because I wasn't available to them for many years of thier lives. I used the excuse that I was too young when I had them but that just doesn't cut it. I guess what I am trying to say is that it hit me that I am so blessed right now and why should I invest time in the small things when I know the one thing I NEED to know?

Jesus LOVES me, He has brought me back to life and everything else is so small and meaningless...

I am sorry if I caused any turmoil today, I hope we can just let it go by. I love everyone here and I harbor no ill thoughts about anyone

Thank you for allowing me to be a pouty little brat sometimes, God knows I am good at that!


Christy

 

[geocajun]

to give more substance to St. Thomas' statement I found the following article online The Deity of the Mother of God by Fr. Malcolm L. Broussard, jr

"The following texts refer to our "birth" from God. They indirectly teach the participation of man in the Divine Nature, as generation consists in the communication of the nature of the generator to the generated (cf. Ott, p.256; John l:12f; John 3:5f; I John 3:1,9; Titus 3:5-8; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23).
The Father's of the Church derived the teaching of the "deification" of man by grace (cf Ott, p.256) from the following texts: Psalm 82(81):1,6; John 10:34.

It is a firm conviction of the Father's of the Church that God became Man so that man might become God, that is deified (cf. Ott, p.256). An important Father of the Church is cited -- St. Athanasius: "The Word became man, so that we might become God ( = be deified) " (cf Ott, p.256). Also St. Thomas Aquinas says the same thing:

ST. THOMAS AQUINAS: "The Only-Begotten Son of God, wishing to enable us to share in His Divinity, assumed our nature, so that by becoming man He might make men gods" (Opusc. 57, 1-4; cf Divine Office, Vol. III, Feast of Corpus Christi, Office of Readings).

St. Thomas Aquinas again says:

ST. THOMAS AQUINAS: "The grace which is an accident is a certain likeness of the Divinity participated by man. But by the Incarnation human nature is not said to have participated a likeness of the Divine Nature, but is said to be united to the Divine Nature itself in the Person of the Son." (Summa Theologica, Part III, Q.2, Art. 10, Reply Obj. 1).""

 

[ps139]

Nice posts geo. It does make sense, if we take it as it should be taken - that there is One God, but He wants us to share in all that he has, including His Nature.

 

[KC Catholic]

I am sorry if I caused any turmoil today, I hope we can just let it go by. I love everyone here and I harbor no ill thoughts about anyone

Thank you for allowing me to be a pouty little brat sometimes, God knows I am good at that!


Christy

Nah...forgetabout it!

We all have our moments and like we said a few weeks ago...the folks that have been here for a long time have to remember that there are folks that are returning to the faith, new to the faith or considering going and we need to be open and patient when it comes to questions like yours.

There are real people with real feelings behind the screen and sometimes we become numb to that fact and act like we're talking to ourselves. Your question/concern was valid. LIke I told you it caught me off guard to read it as well...but once we put things in perspective it made sense.

It's not just the message....it's the delivery!

Peace Christy....

 

[BAChristian]

I'd like to also remind everyone too -- if you have a problem with someone, report them. It's that simple. If they get you so rowled up, that you want to talk about it in public, just stop, step back, get a drink, come back to the computer, then decide whether or not you want to report them.

Sometimes we say the most, when we say nothing at all.

Good thread Christy. BTW, is that you in your profile?

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Who am I anyway?

A great contribution to this forum and a child of God.



PS

As is nyj.

 

[Christy4Christ]

A great contribution to this forum and a child of God.



PS

As is nyj.

Yes we both are. I am sure God understands some healthy sibling rivalry...