Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Originally posted by paulewog
hehe ok, Mr. Andrew =) none taken whatsoever
And what was the Great Commission? "Go forth and heal, speak in tongues, and perform miracles." ? : ) God has the power to do miracles, I am not denying any of that. Although I kinda doubt there have been any raisings of the dead since the 1st century, I do believe there have been some miraculous healings.... hmmmm I may as well clarify exactly what I think about these gifts that are in so much debate, hehe.
Tongues: used to verify the Gospel (a "sign" gift); not given anymore.
Healing: same as above ... as a gift - God can still heal, of course. And does.
Raising of dead: same as above.
Hm, I think those are the 3 main ones. I can't think of... oh yeah
Prophecy: same as above, hehe
Oh? Well of course it does not say in John that, "And the canon will be completed and these gifts will not be given anymore." You're right, it's not that obvious. hehe. However, those gifts were given for what purpose?
Yes. Well I would consider verifying the gospel part of encouragement.Read verse 22 of the same chapter, by the way.
Actually, I rely on scripture more than any accounts.If you'd like, I will type up what one commentary says. Pastor John MacArthur explains it MUCH better than I can. Biblical references and all... last time I did that though people complained about me quoting someone instead of speaking for myself (that was a while ago)
Actually, the Biblical gift of tongues were languages, not babbling or something like that.... ugh, another different threadhehe... back to the main topic...
I have a question - is (or was) casting out demons a gift to only um, the people given the gift, or is it given to all believers?
OK Mr Paulewog,
Let's say the gifts did die out with the apostles. What about what is happening all over the world and even in some churches in America? Are we to assume that satan is behind all of that?
Is it satan that is causing people to be freed from tormenting demons and the freed person now serves Jesus?
Is it satan that is giving back people their sight, their hearing, etc and then allowing them to give the glory to God and their serving Jesus now and also leading others to Him?
When Jesus was accused of doing these things by the power of satan His words were "a house divided against itself cannot stand." Then He asked, "Who's power do you do those things by?" Knowing of course, that they were not doing it at all.
I personally have seen people delivered from demons. I've seen the before and the after.
I saw my best friends leg grow. I personally saw it move.
I have another friend who was born blind. She could see shadows out of one eye and now she sees more than shadows. The other eye she could see nothing, but now she's seeing shadows. Not due to the doctors, but due to being prayed for one night in a service. We're still praying for complete sight.
I've even layed hands on my 15 yr old dog and a very large cyst, that I had been praying over for a few years, one day dissappeared.
If it ceased, as some commentators cleverly explain, then why is it happening?
And what was the Great Commission? "Go forth and heal, speak in tongues, and perform miracles." ? God has the power to do miracles, I am not denying any of that. Although I kinda doubt there have been any raisings of the dead since the 1st century, I do believe there have been some miraculous healings.... hmmmm I may as well clarify exactly what I think about these gifts that are in so much debate, hehe.
Tongues: used to verify the Gospel (a "sign" gift); not given anymore.
Healing: same as above ... as a gift - God can still heal, of course. And does.
Raising of dead: same as above.
Hm, I think those are the 3 main ones. I can't think of... oh yeah
Prophecy: same as above, hehe
Oh? Well of course it does not say in John that, "And the canon will be completed and these gifts will not be given anymore." You're right, it's not that obvious. hehe. However, those gifts were given for what purpose?
Yes. Well I would consider verifying the gospel part of encouragement.Read verse 22 of the same chapter, by the way.
Actually, I rely on scripture more than any accounts. If you'd like, I will type up what one commentary says. Pastor John MacArthur explains it MUCH better than I can. Biblical references and all... last time I did that though people complained about me quoting someone instead of speaking for myself (that was a while ago)
Actually, the Biblical gift of tongues were languages, not babbling or something like that.... ugh, another different thread
hehe... back to the main topic...
I have a question - is (or was) casting out demons a gift to only um, the people given the gift, or is it given to all believers?
2nd Corinthians 12:11-12
I have become a fool in boasting; you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing was I behind teh most eminent apostles, though I am nothing. (12) Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.
Acts 2:22, 43
Men of Israel, hear tehse words: JEsus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst... (43)Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
Acts 5:12
And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. and they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch.
Acts 14:3
Therefore they stayed there a long time, speaking boldly in the Lord, who was bearing witness to the word of His grace, granting signs and wodners to be done by their hands.
Romans 15:18
For I will not dare to speak of any of thsoe things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient-- (19) in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
Hebrews 2:3,4
how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of teh Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
Brethren, do not be children in understanding; hoiwever, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature. (21) In the law it is written:
With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; and yet, for all that, they will not hear Me.
says the Lord. (22)Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. (23)Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? (24) But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. (25) And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God ist ruly among you.
(14:21) In a freely rendered quotation from Is. 28:11,12, Paul explains that centuries earlier the Lord had predicted that one day HE would use men of other tongues, that is, foreigners speaking unknown languages, as a sign to unbelieving Israel, who "will not hear Me." These "other tongues" are what tehy knew as teh gift of languages, given solely as a sign to unbelieving Israel. That sign was 3-fold: cursing, blessing, and authority. To emphasize the cursing,. Paul quoted Isaiah's words of warning to Judah of the judgement from Assyria. The leaders thought his words were too simple and rejected him. The tiem would come, the prophet said, when they would hear Assyrian, a language they could not understand, indicating judgment. Jeremiah spoke similarly of the Babylonians who were also to come and destroy Judah. When the apostles spoke at Pentecost in all thsoe foreign languages, the Jews should have known that the judgment prophesied and historically fulfilled first by the Assyrians then by the Babylonian captivity was about to fall on them again for their rejectino of Christ, including the destruction of Jerusalem (AD 70) as it had happened in 586 BC, under Babylonian power.
(14:22)
Explaining further, he says explicitly that all tongues are for the sake of unbelievers. In other words, that gift has no purpose in the church when everyone present is a believer. And once the sign served its purpose to pronounce judgment or cursing on Israel, and the judgment fell, the purpose ceased along with the sign gift.
The blessing of that sign was that God would build a new nation of Jews and Gentiles to be his people (Gal. 3:28) to make Israle jealous and someday repent (See Rom. 11:11, 12, 25-27). The sign was thus repeated when Gentiles were included in teh church (Acts 16:44-46). The sign also gave authority to those who preached both the judgment and blessing (2nd Cor 12:12), including Paul (v.18). But prophesying is...for thsoe who beleive. In the complete opposite way, the gift of prophesying benefits only believers, who are able, by their new natures and the indwelling Holy Spirit, to understand spiritual truth (cf. 2:14; 1 John 2:20,27).
(14:23)
As Paul explains in more detail later (vv.27,28), even for unbelievers, even when the gift of tongues was exercised in its proper time in history, when it was dominant and unconrtrolled in the church, bedlam ensued and the gospel was disgeraced and discredited. out of your mind The Gr. word means to be in an uncontrolled frenzy. When the real gift was used in Acts 2, tyher ewas no madness and everyone understood in his own language. In Corinth, there was charismatic chaos.
14:24, 25 But if all prophesy This means to publicaly proclaim the Word of God. "All" does not mean all at once (see v. 31) but rather means that hypothetically if the cacophony of all the Corinthians could be replaced by all of them preaching the Word, teh effect on unbelivers would be amazingly powerful, the gospel would be honored, and souls would be converted to worshiping God.
Quaffer said:
Let's say the gifts did die out with the apostles. What about what is happening all over the world and even in some churches in America? Are we to assume that satan is behind all of that?
Is it satan that is causing people to be freed from tormenting demons and the freed person now serves Jesus?
Paulewog said:
I would assume one of two things, by default.
1) Yes, demonic powers
2) Hoaxes
3) Things like healing - could be that a physical pain was related to spiritual something, and the person was spiritually lifted thus the pain subsided, etc. Or, in the cas eof tongues, it doesn't require a special POWER, I dont' think, to make the sounds that peopel call the gift of tongues. =)
But I would try not to assume that right away, hehe...
Of course, that's what the Pharisee's said about Jesus - that He was doing miracles using the power of Satan, which was when Jesus said blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was the unforgivable sin.I would assume one of two things, by default.
1) Yes, demonic powers
2) Hoaxes
3) Things like healing - could be that a physical pain was related to spiritual something, and the person was spiritually lifted thus the pain subsided, etc. Or, in the cas eof tongues, it doesn't require a special POWER, I dont' think, to make the sounds that peopel call the gift of tongues. =)
Hey paulewog,
what does your heart say abt the gifts? do you really (deeeeeeep down inside) believe its all gone? do you in your heart wish that the gifts still existed?
Paulewog, there seems to be an inherent anti-supernatural bias here on your part. Quaffer cited that people served Jesus afterward and you still think it's Satan? This shows an unwillingness to believe the fruit of what has been done.
I think it's more likely that you and MacArthur are not simply trying to be scriptural in your rejection of spiritual gifts for today, but also not even allowing for the possibility. I hope you will think differently.
I said:
(14:21) In a freely rendered quotation from Is. 28:11,12, Paul explains that centuries earlier the Lord had predicted that one day HE
would use men of other tongues, that is, foreigners speaking unknown languages, as a sign to unbelieving Israel, who "will not hear Me." These "other tongues" are what tehy knew as teh gift of languages, given solely as a sign to unbelieving Israel. That sign was 3- fold: cursing, blessing, and authority. To emphasize the cursing,. Paul quoted Isaiah's words of warning to Judah of the judgement from Assyria. The leaders thought his words were too simple and rejected him. The tiem would come, the prophet said, when they would hear Assyrian, a language they could not understand, indicating judgment. Jeremiah spoke similarly of the Babylonians who were also to come and destroy Judah. When the apostles spoke at Pentecost in all thsoe foreign languages, the Jews should have known that the judgment prophesied and historically fulfilled first by the Assyrians then by the Babylonian captivity was about to fall on them again for their rejectino of Christ, including the destruction of Jerusalem (AD 70) as it had happened in 586 BC, under Babylonian power.
In the context of the passage though, we are not talking about the judgement of Israel.
Paul has been talking about the edification of the church and the point of quoting Is.28:11-12 was that tongues were a sign that it was the Lord that was at work here, but if no-one interprets those tongues then the unbeliever will not know that as one would in the case of a prophecy. The Corinthian church made the use of tongues into something that outsiders and ungifted people could not be edified by. And furthermore, if tongues were a sign for the Jews only then why was it in use in Corinth, a cosmoplitan city? And Paul only mentions the unbeliever, not the Jew as the one who is convinced and heart laid bare.
This is an assertion by MacArthur only. Nowhere in the text does it say or even imply that the gift ever ceased. No, the gift was for the sake of unbelievers Paul contrasts the way it was being misused (everyone speaking in tongues without interpretation, ensuring unbelievers were being missed out) with the way it was supposed to be (prophecy which is understood by the unbeliever, meaning no- one misses out) But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.(vv24-25)
Pauls reference to Is.28:11-12 refers to the foreign tongue as a sign of impending judgement because God will speak to his people but its like gibberish to them
so they wont listen and therefore they will face the consequences.
But the same sign to believers in Is 28 is something that IS understood and therefore is prophecy and not just a foreign tongue.
Elsewhere Paul speaks of praying to oneself, and praying in tongues as a form of self-edification and of praise (14:4,14-15,17). So when he says tongues are a sign, he is not saying categorically that that is the only purpose but in the context of a church setting as his main point is the edification of the churc.
(2) For he wh ospeaks in a tongue does not speak to men... (4)He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself... (5) I wish that you all spok with tongues.... for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues... (6) But now, brethren, if I comne to you speaking with tongues....
Once again, there is no indication in the text that tongues would ever cease, its a paradigm of MacArthurs. And there is nothing to suggest the gift in Corinth was counterfeit, merely misused. Paul wishes that everyone spoke in tongues (14:5) and says not to forbid it(14:39).
It says prophecy, not preaching the word. Yet another twist from MacArthurs own bias.
How does the word lay bare the secrets of an unbelievers heart?
No, this verse is saying something of the role of prophecy in the church in regard to unbelievers. The preaching of the Word is not the same thing.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?