Cassandra Complex, Sarah Connor, and futurism - how our timetables can become an addiction

[eclipsenow]

I’m concerned about some psychological aspects of futurism that I’ve seen on display here. Many futurists I meet here are keen Christians trying to wrestle with Scripture - and what’s not to like about that? I agree with their quest to understand the New Testament. As an Amil I disagree with their futurist interpretation - but I'm encouraged by how seriously many take the bible and the ultimate promise of God's salvation in Jesus.

But lately I’ve noticed an increasingly judgemental tone in a minority. Sadly, I recognise it. Many years ago I ended up in an environmental activist group that had a lot of Malthusian Doomers predicting Mad Max soon. They were suffering something known as Cassandra Complex - where you try to warn people about a horrible future - but get frustrated that no-one is listening. I had it. Bad. Cassandra (metaphor) - Wikipedia

Effects on sufferer
The first thing to say about becoming a Cassandra is that it can be seductive - even comforting to feel the power of knowing the future. This is different to the general Christian hope of knowing we are saved and one day the Lord will return to right all wrongs and install his kingdom forever. What I’m concerned about is when a particular futurist end-times-table so consumes someone that they forget to rejoice in the basics of the gospel and the little things in life. Like Sarah Connor from the Terminator movies, they can feel a sense of dreadful clarity and purpose. Sydney Anglican Theologian friends of mine were interviewed on ABC’s “Compass” program about apocalyptic thinking in the church. (They wrote the book “666 and all that.”) Their book is very helpful on understanding Revelation. But what’s MORE pertinent to my concerns was the psychologist’s findings! Over to her:-

Susan Tanner: "Apocalyptic thinking can be very useful to people who need to feel a sense of control, and that they therefore feel calm because they know what's going to happen. Living with uncertainty, living with a question mark is the hardest thing to do for all human beings. We like to know what's going to happen. That's why we visit clairvoyants and you know we have our tarots read and all sorts of things...."

COMPASS: Apocalypse Now?

That is - uncertainty is worse than doom. To some people, admitting you do NOT know the future is more terrifying than some dire AntiChrist timetable!

Not only this - but I’m also concerned about an superiority complex it seems to give. Now I admit in my worse moments I can be can be sarcastic and arrogant. There’s a certain arrogance in being confident enough just to blog on forums - most Christians do not bother and just watch the TV each night. So I admit both Amils and Futurists can behave badly online - myself included.

But having a Cassandra Complex can have a particular mania, where the individual is the only one who ‘gets it’ and everyone else are the “Sheeple” - the sheep people just following the crowd. It can give them a sense of identity, of having a purpose and special mission that other people do not have. It often comes out with arrogant statements like “You’ll soon see” etc (only to suddenly disappear off this forum when the timetable expires.) Indeed - I’m quite appalled how many futurists talk down to me as if I’m almost not saved. They don’t think I’m honesty trying to understand the bible - I’m stubbornly refusing to read their ‘obvious verses’ and my stubbornness is a spiritual blindness! I mean, wow!

I hope and pray we can all move past this sort of superior and judgemental attitude to those we disagree with. If you see it in me, please remind me that futurists are my brothers and sisters in Christ!

Effects on young people
I worry about young people making future study and career and marriage choices then reading some futurists blogs and wrecking their lives as a result! What if they put all their hope in a more immediate return of the Lord? What if they LIVE BY some futurist blog - and also catch some of the sheer mania that being “Sarah Connor” can bring?

What happens when a futurist timetable does not happen as advertised? Have they missed college or career opportunities? Or worse - do they get disillusioned with the whole thing and give up on Christ himself?

It can get worse. What if they read a dire futurist blog in a state of depression? The environmental group I was in years ago raised important sustainability questions Christian thinkers should consider. But sadly this group was full of extremist Cassandras. One young man was convinced that societal collapse was imminent - and hung himself rather than watch his parents and family starve to death in some sort of Mad Max chaos. To this day I hold the leader responsible.

Restoring Mayberry: The moment of darkness

What are the signs of becoming a Cassandra?

1. Mania. I’ve been there myself - over more societal, environmental concerns. I didn’t rejoice in this ‘knowledge’ I had - but I was very, very concerned and wanted extreme action on certain issues. Within 6 months of my environmental ‘awakening’ I had taught myself basic web design, formed a group online, gathered the troops, and briefed a State Parliamentary meeting. And all this while my child had CANCER! I had this burning purpose from the moment I woke up to the moment I collapsed into bed. Today I am ashamed of my behaviour and what I put my family through. Do you have manic energy for sharing your timetable? Is this ‘certain knowledge’ you have of the future consuming your every moment? Do your family or friends or colleagues avoid you at parties because they know you'll talk about it just too much?
2. Focus. Rather than sharing the basic gospel with the unsaved, the temptation is to convince other Christians about your timetable. Is that your focus? I’m remembering the story of a Christian futurist talking to a non-Christian in a gas-station. He was so convinced of his future timetable he talked more about the signs of the coming Anti-Christ than he did how to become a Christian.
3. Judgemental. Are you frustrated with Christian friends just talking about the mundane business of living? Are you tempted to call them “Sheeple” or think of them as just following the crowd? Is there a place for slowing down and remembering Ecclesiastes - that the repeating apparently meaningless patterns of work and rest, night and day, sun and rain are all actually gifts from God?

If you have found the above 3 points to be true - you might have become a Cassandra. Friends counselled me years ago - and this is what I eventually had to do:-

Unplug: get away from the forums for 6 months. I needed time to take a step back and slow down and just stop thinking about it all for a while. Enjoy family and movies and hobbies. Go on walks in nature.

Practice gratitude: I needed to remember that Jesus loved me and this world and was sovereign - and that HE was the Creator - not me. It’s his world to protect and direct - not mine. It will be all right if I just stop for half a year. And if you are in the manic phase (which can be so purposeful and thrilling but so tiring!) and just can’t relax and enjoy the small wonders in life - try listening to these talks by Kirk Patston about Ecclesiastes and enjoying the gifts of God in the creation cycles of this world. Basically, it might be time to slow down and thank God for the little things.

Talks from the book of Ecclesiastes

Serve: Listen to regular sermons and do regular devotions about normal Christian living. Don’t just read about your eschatology or timetables! Get back to a regular, normal bible study group and listen to and pray for your fellowship group. Serve in word and deed and prayer. Think about what your friends and family need this next week, and this next month, and schedule it in - the art of converting your values into your timetable.

I hope this helps anyone going through this - it can be an awful time.

Thank you for reading if you made it this far. Love and prayers.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

From what I read I agree that it isn't always helpful to lean on a doom and gloom future, but something that always interested me was the idea that the future has potential for good to be present and doesn't have to always be bad. If more Christian's had a hope for the future "On Earth as it is in Heaven" mentality then I believe there'd be room for positive change on Earth before we get to Heaven.

An interesting thing to think about is the prophesy against Nineveh, but how they repented and God withheld the prophesied disaster. I am a true believer that if people changed Jesus could withhold some of the destruction talked about in Revelation, at least for a later time possibly giving us more time on Earth. Just a thought.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Hi I noted a decent point in your opinion about the common gospel and appreciate that sentiment. As a futurist on these threads I can assure you their are plenty on the side of preterism who treat futurist as as bad as you note you have been treated and this ought not to be. The debate is a a bit divisive in nature because of the drastic differences in so many passages and doctrinal lines in inherent to the very nature of the differences. As I am a futurist and my method is to take every passage that seems to be talking about the same event and assemble them together and list every contingency associated and then correlate the entire picture. Futurism has a very complicated specific list that is largely interpreted it by letting the Bible speak for itself. For example when the LORD comes and is king over all the earth in Zech 14 you can make a list of specifics that occur on that day.
1. Jerusalem is being overrun.
2. half the city it taken captive.
3. women are being ravished.
4. The LORD comes with his saints.
5. The enemies are melted with very specific description of eyes and tongues being dissolved
6. The Mount of Olives will split in two.
7. There is a valley with specific boundaries formed.
8. A new River with two branches is formed and one flows east.
9. It is a day when it is dark in the daytime and light at night.
10. The LORD is king over all the earth.
11 on that day they will say the LORD is one.
12. The nations which are left must now come to Jerusalem to worship the king and keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. Egypt is singled out to keep this command specifically.
So this list as futurist I just believe it is going to happen as written.
Now in Ezekile 47 the Dead Sea is predicted to be healed and a prosperous fishing village and at this same time the 12 tribes of Israel receive the inheritance in the land with specific boundaries. This also taken literally relates to the mt of Olives being split in two.
This coming of the kingdom if we go back to Luke 1 we see Jesus promised to take the throne of David and reign forever. He is also in Zacharias prophecy said to be a horn of deliverance for the house of Jacob and deliver him from his enemies to begin a time where they (Israel or Jacob's house) would now worship and serve the LORD without fear all the days of their lives and now in Holiness.

In Zech 14 do we see a deliverance happening for Israel? Do we see the LORD declared king over all the earth? Life is seen continuing after this day as the river flows year round and the nations which are left have that obligation. So with a literal futurist perspective I can believe this is the 2nd coming and Armageddon too and the beginning of the millennium. I have consistency of integration and have not read anything into the text. I could list over 300 items that tie together like I did in Zech 14 and the list does not contradict itself with the same method of hermeneutics. This kind of assurance or world view does not have me in fear but rather in faith as I am seeing all of these dominoes lining up and just as they are written. The closer we are to the events the clearer it should become and some of the speculation of the 70's and 80's was good but understated how much time we had. As we sit here there is a very real possibility that this inflation we are seeing could go to hyperinflation on a global level. This would start to check off the specifics of Rev 6 a days wage for a quart of wheat, peace taken from the earth and so on. By the middle of the week the great reset agenda is also tracking the very specifics of the mark of the beast type technology and uniting the world with 10 regions. There are so many we could go over so in contrast you have to take a look at the allegorical view which is partly historical and compare it with the fulfillment of all the prophecies of the 1st advent. They were quite literal and therefor that method by and large will prevail when it is all said and done.

So as I see the things coming I draw near my Christ and hope to be used by him and I fear nothing for I have all things in Him. I believe is based of faith of evidence of things seen that are tracking with the literalist view on every specific detail.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

From what I read I agree that it isn't always helpful to lean on a doom and gloom future, but something that always interested me was the idea that the future has potential for good to be present and doesn't have to always be bad. If more Christian's had a hope for the future "On Earth as it is in Heaven" mentality then I believe there'd be room for positive change on Earth before we get to Heaven.

An interesting thing to think about is the prophesy against Nineveh, but how they repented and God withheld the prophesied disaster. I am a true believer that if people changed Jesus could withhold some of the destruction talked about in Revelation, at least for a later time possibly giving us more time on Earth. Just a thought.

I can tell you exactly when the end will come. When the final person in the Lamb's book of life comes to salvation, most likely the last martyr during the tribulation that will come to belief. Remember that book was written before the foundation of the world. Why otherwise wait, unless the Lord had some purpose for that final person (or group of people) to fulfill certain parts of the prophecies (such as the 144,000 sealed in Revelation and/or the testimony of the 2 witnesses, which in most views will mean tribulation has already begun).

 

[eclipsenow]

Hi I noted a decent point in your opinion about the common gospel and appreciate that sentiment. As a futurist on these threads I can assure you their are plenty on the side of preterism who treat futurist as as bad as you note you have been treated and this ought not to be. The debate is a a bit divisive in nature because of the drastic differences in so many passages and doctrinal lines in inherent to the very nature of the differences. As I am a futurist and my method is to take every passage that seems to be talking about the same event and assemble them together and list every contingency associated and then correlate the entire picture. Futurism has a very complicated specific list that is largely interpreted it by letting the Bible speak for itself. For example when the LORD comes and is king over all the earth in Zech 14 you can make a list of specifics that occur on that day.
1. Jerusalem is being overrun.
2. half the city it taken captive.
3. women are being ravished.
4. The LORD comes with his saints.
5. The enemies are melted with very specific description of eyes and tongues being dissolved
6. The Mount of Olives will split in two.
7. There is a valley with specific boundaries formed.
8. A new River with two branches is formed and one flows east.
9. It is a day when it is dark in the daytime and light at night.
10. The LORD is king over all the earth.
11 on that day they will say the LORD is one.
12. The nations which are left must now come to Jerusalem to worship the king and keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. Egypt is singled out to keep this command specifically.
So this list as futurist I just believe it is going to happen as written.
Now in Ezekile 47 the Dead Sea is predicted to be healed and a prosperous fishing village and at this same time the 12 tribes of Israel receive the inheritance in the land with specific boundaries. This also taken literally relates to the mt of Olives being split in two.
This coming of the kingdom if we go back to Luke 1 we see Jesus promised to take the throne of David and reign forever. He is also in Zacharias prophecy said to be a horn of deliverance for the house of Jacob and deliver him from his enemies to begin a time where they (Israel or Jacob's house) would now worship and serve the LORD without fear all the days of their lives and now in Holiness.

In Zech 14 do we see a deliverance happening for Israel? Do we see the LORD declared king over all the earth? Life is seen continuing after this day as the river flows year round and the nations which are left have that obligation. So with a literal futurist perspective I can believe this is the 2nd coming and Armageddon too and the beginning of the millennium. I have consistency of integration and have not read anything into the text. I could list over 300 items that tie together like I did in Zech 14 and the list does not contradict itself with the same method of hermeneutics. This kind of assurance or world view does not have me in fear but rather in faith as I am seeing all of these dominoes lining up and just as they are written. The closer we are to the events the clearer it should become and some of the speculation of the 70's and 80's was good but understated how much time we had. As we sit here there is a very real possibility that this inflation we are seeing could go to hyperinflation on a global level. This would start to check off the specifics of Rev 6 a days wage for a quart of wheat, peace taken from the earth and so on. By the middle of the week the great reset agenda is also tracking the very specifics of the mark of the beast type technology and uniting the world with 10 regions. There are so many we could go over so in contrast you have to take a look at the allegorical view which is partly historical and compare it with the fulfillment of all the prophecies of the 1st advent. They were quite literal and therefor that method by and large will prevail when it is all said and done.

So as I see the things coming I draw near my Christ and hope to be used by him and I fear nothing for I have all things in Him. I believe is based of faith of evidence of things seen that are tracking with the literalist view on every specific detail.

The hermeneutic is back to front. Gotta take how the NT interprets the OT, not the other way around. You've put a framework of the earlier interpreting the later covenant, where the bible definitely has Jesus and the apostles interpreting the earlier, older covenant. The OT provides background for good biblical theology, but the NT is the final authority on all matters eschatological - not the other way around.

Besides this is all off-topic! I don't want to discuss who is right or wrong here - like a thousand* other conflicting, circular, going-nowhere futurist threads!
I want to ask how to cope with the "knowledge" we have.

* See what I did with 1000 there?

 

[Eloy Craft]

When questioning someone's interpretation of scripture I sometimes hear "don't you believe the Word of God?" I know this person isn't able to distinguish the voice of God from their own.

 

[eclipsenow]

When questioning someone's interpretation of scripture I sometimes hear "don't you believe the Word of God?" I know this person isn't able to distinguish the voice of God from their own.

I hear you! I wish I could say I only heard this sometimes. For me it's regular. The generally hostile and superior tone gets up my goat so much I end up reacting. Basically I've reduced my interactions here about 90% this year on previous years.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

I can tell you exactly when the end will come. When the final person in the Lamb's book of life comes to salvation, most likely the last martyr during the tribulation that will come to belief. Remember that book was written before the foundation of the world. Why otherwise wait, unless the Lord had some purpose for that final person (or group of people) to fulfill certain parts of the prophecies (such as the 144,000 sealed in Revelation and/or the testimony of the 2 witnesses, which in most views will mean tribulation has already begun).

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Unless you know more than Jesus Himself I don't think you know when the end will come.

 

[Eloy Craft]

I hear you! I wish I could say I only heard this sometimes. For me it's regular. The generally hostile and superior tone gets up my goat so much I end up reacting. Basically I've reduced my interactions here about 90% this year on previous years.

Something so many don't realize is that prophecy doesn't provide a timetable. Prophecy reveals a sequence of events. This will happen then that and so on. When I hear someone offering a timetable I know it's a prediction not a prophecy.

 

[eclipsenow]

Something so many don't realize is that prophecy doesn't provide a timetable. Prophecy reveals a sequence of events. This will happen then that and so on. When I hear someone offering a timetable I know it's a prediction not a prophecy.

Some futurists date their timetables - and then the date comes and goes and they've got egg on their face.

Some futurists don't date their timetables and call it a sequence of events. AntiChrist / AOD - one world government - something in the temple - global persecution of Christians - microchips (always with the microchips these days) - various super-sized natural catastrophes - these are all in the futurist sequence of events to varying degrees.

But Amillennialism has neither a timetable with dates nor without.

Everything in Revelation is descriptive - not prescriptive.

It's a sermon about what to do when suffering comes your way - whether that's persecuting governments, natural disasters of various kinds, or even the 'suffering' of living with the temptations of wealth and success!

Anything goes in Amil teaching regarding the future. There is no sequence of events, because Revelation has chapters that are relevant to whatever scenario is currently underway in your country or century.

Basically, we could hit World War 3 and nuke ourselves back to the Stone Age, and Revelation would have something to say about that.

OR we could have a completely different future and enter a robot-driven post-scarcity futuristic hedonistic techno-paradise, where the temptation is to trust in the wealth and abundance of this world, and Revelation would have something to say about that!

Revelation has chapters that tell Christians how to live under persecution, disaster, and abundance.

But again, we're getting off topic!

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

Some futurists date their timetables - and then the date comes and goes and they've got egg on their face.

Some futurists don't date their timetables and call it a sequence of events. AntiChrist / AOD - one world government - something in the temple - global persecution of Christians - microchips (always with the microchips these days) - various super-sized natural catastrophes - these are all in the futurist sequence of events to varying degrees.

But Amillennialism has neither a timetable with dates nor without.

Everything in Revelation is descriptive - not prescriptive.

It's a sermon about what to do when suffering comes your way - whether that's persecuting governments, natural disasters of various kinds, or even the 'suffering' of living with the temptations of wealth and success!

Anything goes in Amil teaching regarding the future. There is no sequence of events, because Revelation has chapters that are relevant to whatever scenario is currently underway in your country or century.

Basically, we could hit World War 3 and nuke ourselves back to the Stone Age, and Revelation would have something to say about that.

OR we could have a completely different future and enter a robot-driven post-scarcity futuristic hedonistic techno-paradise, where the temptation is to trust in the wealth and abundance of this world, and Revelation would have something to say about that!

Revelation has chapters that tell Christians how to live under persecution, disaster, and abundance.

But again, we're getting off topic!

I really like your possible descriptions of the future and the photos that accompany them, they were really cool

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Something so many don't realize is that prophecy doesn't provide a timetable. Prophecy reveals a sequence of events. This will happen then that and so on. When I hear someone offering a timetable I know it's a prediction not a prophecy.

Hi prophecy does often present a time table. Jesus knew it was 3 days and night in the grave. Abraham was told 4 generations 400 year his people would be in a land they did not know and then they would go and receive the land of Canaan. Jeremiah was told 70 years in Babylon was determined and Daniel prayed saying he knew according to the prophecy that the 70 years was not completed. Dan 9 notes that 7 and 62 7's or 483 years from the order to rebuild and Jerusalem and its walls until Messiah the prince and he would be cut off. So when you look at Rev and it notes that the beast had dominion over every tribe tongue kindred and nations for 42 months you might think that one over a little bit. That would be the same amount of time in Dan 9 which notes the sacrifice will be stopped in the middle of the week. Dan 7 has a pompous guy persecuting for a time, times and half a time just prior to the decision made in favor of the saint and then the kingdom is given to the son of man who is before the ancient of days and this kingdom covers the earth and has no end. This same timeline would indicate that the beast who is also persecuting the saints for the exact same length of time ends when the kingdom comes. Both of these guys have their bodies given to the flame when the kingdom comes too.

Jospeh was given the vision of 7 good and bad years.
Jospeh was given the vision of with in 3 days regarding the butcher and baker.
Abraham was told this same time next year he would have a son.

 

[Eloy Craft]

when you look at Rev and it notes that the beast had dominion over every tribe tongue kindred and nations for 42 months you might think that one over a little bit.

42 months is 3.5 yrs. 1260 days is 3.5 years. Jesus' public ministry is 3.5 years. A time, two times, and a half a time is another expression of 3.5 years. None of that is evidence of a historical timeline attached to the end events.

Jesus knew it was 3 days and night in the grave. A

That wasn't a prophecy given to mark the end of a waiting period but to bring understanding and glory to Christ after it happened.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

42 months is 3.5 yrs. 1260 days is 3.5 years. Jesus' public ministry is 3.5 years. A time, two times, and a half a time is another expression of 3.5 years. None of that is evidence of a historical timeline attached to the end events.


That wasn't a prophecy given to mark the end of a waiting period but to bring understanding and glory to Christ after it happened.

The date count of Jesus ministry is not given and that the period is within what you are saying is true but we have not idea that it was 1260 days. Furthermore the 1260 days, 42, months and all are also applied to the reign of the beast and the persecution period of Dan 7. So did persecution of the saints and a beast gains world domination at the same time Jesus ministry began? Or is this time line talking about the time of the end. The specifics about this in Rev end with Armageddon. This is why the debate is important. I quoted Luke one where Jesus is to fulfill promises, covenants and oaths and prophecies to deliver the house of Jacob from their enemies. In Zech 14 we see that very deliverance when the kingdom is established. The prophecy of Jesus in LUKE 1 is a New Testament prophecy and when Jesus took the scroll and read Isaiah 61 up the declaring the acceptable year of the LORD he stopped mid sentence. The rest of the chapter is also about the one who had the spirit of the LORD upon them and it declares everything the LORD will do in the day of vengeance and in this day the deliverance of Israel is declared and distinctions are made between Jews and Gentiles in this day. The preterist view has Israel destroyed in the day of vengeance and not saved out of it. This is a huge contradiction. Daniel 7 shows persecution will be stopped when the kingdom comes. The problem is you guys are half right and there is a thing as spiritual Israel and a spiritual kingdom. There is no other way to be saved than the new covenant as Rev 5 shows all the saints worship Jesus having been redeemed by his blood. The reality is the kingdom age on earth is just as true as the spiritual kingdom. And since Jesus will be standing there with the scars and all the prophetic return of the sacrifice will be more like a communion or memorial ceremony even if the offering is called a sin sacrifice. The blood of bulls, goats and all never removed a single sin and it will not remove them in that day. It is by faith that we access the blood of Christ and Jesus gave us communion for this purpose and when he is king over Israel the sacrifices will be pointing to him and all the history will reveal God's glory. Like Hosea said where it was said not my people you shall be called sons of the living God. This is Jezreel which is another name for the Meggido Valley.

 

[Eloy Craft]

The date count of Jesus ministry is not given and that the period is within what you are saying is true but we have not idea that it was 1260 days. Furthermore the 1260 days, 42, months and all are also applied to the reign of the beast and the persecution period of Dan 7. So did persecution of the saints and a beast gains world domination at the same time Jesus ministry began?

Thank you for responding.
To answer the question at the end; the beast had dominion on earth until Christs Sacrifice conquered death and brought Salvation. Satan did persecute the saints. The Apostles we're sifted. Satan used them to obstruct Christ's work. Satan took one for his own. Satan's children were more numerous and dominant than God's children.
Jesus explains right before His death that the ruler of this world is about to be judged and cast down.
Must have been so difficult to understand given that Jesus was about to be given into the hands of wicked men and executed.
The dominion of the evil one ended with the rise of Christ.

All prophecy points to the Christ Event

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

I can agree with you that all prophecy points to Christ and the futurist solution points to Christ as well. When the beast if bound it says the nations who were deceived will no longer be deceived until the 1000 years is over and Satan loosed. We have seen no evidence that the righteous reign and dominion of Jesus and the overthrow of the powers and principalities in high places has taken place. In fact the beast is destroyed and bound after Armageddon and there is a gap of 1000 years in between when Satan is loosed and one last rebellion is allowed that leads to the final end that is surrounding Jerusalem and then fire comes down and that is the end of that age. You have correct that Jesus conquered sin and death but he has not returned with the power dominion and authority that will check off every single box of every promise, covenant, oath and prophecy mentioned in Luke 1. I know that once you accepted a historical view it is a lens that is hard to take off. The same for the futurist view. I maintained my view after assembling hundreds of verses that tell the same narrative without having to force meanings or interpretations into them. On the other hand the preterist view must take and allegorize huge swaths of texts ex Zech 14 which was semi outlined in an earlier post. The other thing that is huge is that the expectations of futurist are the very agenda of the World Economic furl build back better program which is trying to bring in the UN 2030 objectives which is goal derived from the UN earth charter. This charter was written by Gorbachov and placed in a new age ark of the covenant and carried on poles into the UN building. Symbolically this is saying the earth charter has replaced the 10 commandments. A global government and cashless system as well as the two state solution are all on the table. This sort of reminds me of the time Noah built the ark and when it was almost finished and the rain about to start no one understood that it was coming. I can see the hyperinflation on a global level coming too and am not afraid but confident that the LORD is going to perform his word and righteous and true are his judgments.

 

[eclipsenow]

The date count of Jesus ministry is not given and that the period is within what you are saying is true but we have not idea that it was 1260 days. Furthermore the 1260 days, 42, months and all are also applied to the reign of the beast and the persecution period of Dan 7. So did persecution of the saints and a beast gains world domination at the same time Jesus ministry began? Or is this time line talking about the time of the end. The specifics about this in Rev end with Armageddon. This is why the debate is important. I quoted Luke one where Jesus is to fulfill promises, covenants and oaths and prophecies to deliver the house of Jacob from their enemies. In Zech 14 we see that very deliverance when the kingdom is established. The prophecy of Jesus in LUKE 1 is a New Testament prophecy and when Jesus took the scroll and read Isaiah 61 up the declaring the acceptable year of the LORD he stopped mid sentence. The rest of the chapter is also about the one who had the spirit of the LORD upon them and it declares everything the LORD will do in the day of vengeance and in this day the deliverance of Israel is declared and distinctions are made between Jews and Gentiles in this day. The preterist view has Israel destroyed in the day of vengeance and not saved out of it. This is a huge contradiction. Daniel 7 shows persecution will be stopped when the kingdom comes. The problem is you guys are half right and there is a thing as spiritual Israel and a spiritual kingdom. There is no other way to be saved than the new covenant as Rev 5 shows all the saints worship Jesus having been redeemed by his blood. The reality is the kingdom age on earth is just as true as the spiritual kingdom. And since Jesus will be standing there with the scars and all the prophetic return of the sacrifice will be more like a communion or memorial ceremony even if the offering is called a sin sacrifice. The blood of bulls, goats and all never removed a single sin and it will not remove them in that day. It is by faith that we access the blood of Christ and Jesus gave us communion for this purpose and when he is king over Israel the sacrifices will be pointing to him and all the history will reveal God's glory. Like Hosea said where it was said not my people you shall be called sons of the living God. This is Jezreel which is another name for the Meggido Valley.

And.... we're off! "You can date it" is coming down the outside track, but "It's a sequence of events" is catching him. Oh, what's this? "I'm the OP" is cutting them all off on the corner!

Reminder - this thread is not about which version of Futurism is true or how to date the end times.

It's about how to cope with that view if you have it. And how you conduct yourself around other Christians.

So if you think it's soon - how does it impact your life?

 

[parousia70]

It's about how to cope with that view if you have it. And how you conduct yourself around other Christians.

So if you think it's soon - how does it impact your life?

It sure would be fascinating if we had accounts from Christians with these competing views from, say, the middle ages...

Lets imagine two Christian neighbors from the 1300's...Both Futurists, but one takes the position that we can't know the time so never bothered "watching" for the signs, and simply went about his christian life loving his neighbor as himself and loving God with all his heart.

The other lived his life constantly watching, waiting and preparing for the coming he believe could happen "at any moment" and probably was goign to happen in his own lifetime, and thus expecting the world to get worse and worse, so he abandoned any hope of working to make it better.

Both Live out their lives and Died in a right relationship with Jesus.

Which one had the advantage? Was there any tangible benefit to either one for holding either view? Or, did it even matter what they believed about it at all?

 

[eclipsenow]

It sure would be fascinating if we had accounts from Christians with these competing views from, say, the middle ages...

Lets imagine two Christian neighbors from the 1300's...Both Futurists, but one takes the position that we can't know the time so never bothered "watching" for the signs, and simply went about his christian life loving his neighbor as himself and loving God with all his heart.

The other lived his life constantly watching, waiting and preparing for the coming he believe could happen "at any moment" and probably was goign to happen in his own lifetime, and thus expecting the world to get worse and worse, so he abandoned any hope of working to make it better.

Both Live out their lives and Died in a right relationship with Jesus.

Which one had the advantage? Was there any tangible benefit to either one for holding either view? Or, did it even matter what they believed about it at all?

Now that's more like it!
I like your questions.

 

[parousia70]

Effects on young people
I worry about young people making future study and career and marriage choices then reading some futurists blogs and wrecking their lives as a result! What if they put all their hope in a more immediate return of the Lord? What if they LIVE BY some futurist blog - and also catch some of the sheer mania that being “Sarah Connor” can bring?

What happens when a futurist timetable does not happen as advertised? Have they missed college or career opportunities? Or worse - do they get disillusioned with the whole thing and give up on Christ himself?

It can get worse. What if they read a dire futurist blog in a state of depression? The environmental group I was in years ago raised important sustainability questions Christian thinkers should consider. But sadly this group was full of extremist Cassandras. One young man was convinced that societal collapse was imminent - and hung himself rather than watch his parents and family starve to death in some sort of Mad Max chaos.

Amil sees that the Advent of the Messiah took the covenant nation of Israel and gave it a global, universal mission and dominion over all things. Therefore we are simply the next generation of Joshuas and Davids and Ezras and Pauls and Marys and Deborahs whose mission relates to the victorious destiny and inheritance of the Covenant people of God. We are the people of Hebrews 11 faith and dominon. We are the People who God has predestined that we might "establish righteousness and subdue kingdoms" as did the heroes of our Faith (Heb 11:33). And so we are the only nation upon earth that has been given all dominion over Heaven and earth to subdue it and establish Christ's law and rule among mankind.

Indeed the Church used to think that way up until the late 1800s and 1900s when the endtimes leaders (Darby, Scofield, Moody, Sunday, Lindsey, Impe, etc) began to teach a doctrine of "predestined endtimes defeatism for the Church." Their prescription to the Church? Withdrawal. Retreat. "Come out from her my people." Don't vote. "You Don't polish brass on a sinking ship." Your kids aren't gonna live long enough to choose a career, spouse or college. Etc. etc. etc. This short-term thinking has hamstrung our Churches and hamstrung America which was founded on great faith by Christians who were mostly unfamiliar with endtimes short-term thinking patterns. The pioneers of America were builders and people who saw human history through the eyes of all-powerful faith and Divine destiny.

That worldview and faith has been lost due to false endtimes dogmas.

Only return to the Historic Amil view of the unstoppable Victory of the Gospel in the new covenant age will right that ship.
The historic Church has always had an eschatology of victory and hope. Catholic Amillennialists and later the Postmillennial Revivalists (Johnathan Edwards, etc) all have the same belief that the Church will triumph victorious in this age before the final consummation talked about in the historic creeds. As St. John also said, "The darkness is past; the true light now shineth!"

The apostles rightly understood that the purpose for the end of the Old Covenant Era was "that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:7) and that the Church is God's agent of His own glory and wisdom (Eph 3:1-11, 21). Augustine, Eusebius, the Puritans, and today's Reconstructionists all taught/teach us an eschatology of victory and triumph for the Church (and not doom and gloom).

Amil is the most early and established Christian position on eschatology and it is the position that embraces and affirms the Victory of Christ and His Church in this age.

The Church is the only Nation of Christ that goes on forever, and the Church will never crumble (Matt 16:18-19;Eph 3:9-11,21). However, geo-political nations do come and go, for our God "sets up kings and puts them down" (Dan 2:21)... for God "is the supreme governor among the nations" (Ps 22:28)... for our God "rules over all the kingdoms of the heathen so none is able to withstand Him" (2 Chronicles 20:6)... and His "is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is His; His is the kingdom" (1 Chronicles 29:11). That is the gospel. That is the rule of law for mankind. That is the reality of the kingdom. The Church was given dominion over all the universe by divine right (Rom 4:12-18; Matt 28:18/Dan 7:14,27; Matt 5:5), and the world belongs to us (1 Cor 3:22) -- but, as with Joshua, the people of God must take it all by faith (1 Jn 5:4).

The vast majority of American evangelicals are dispensationalists, and they have been taught that America is doomed by God's will because we are in the last days. This has been their gospel for at least the past 100 years, and so those evangelicals and their kids and their grandkids were taught not to govern, run cities, play baseball, launch universities, or even get into media to fulfill one's duty to Christ. Mere personal piety was taught, the kind that doesn't affect anyone or anything else.
Ideas have consequences. As you point out, Dispensationalist ideas have disastrous consequences (withdrawal, abandonment, escapism, surrender).

Their problem is that dispensationalists were taught a castrated, reduced gospel so that they don't even know what it means to have Christ govern their lives, marriages, jobs, society, and country. Moses understood what it meant to have Christ govern lives, societies, families and country. So did Joshua. And David. And the apostles. And King Jesus. And even many of the fathers of America.