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Carnivores - why do they exist?

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by judy, Mar 28, 2003.

  1. judy

    judy Veteran

    +74
    Agnostic
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    Before "The Fall", do Christians believe that in Eden there were no carnivorous animals? Because supposedly before Adam and Eve ate the apple, there was no death in the world.

    If their sin caused the animals to start eating each other, why? Did God feel compelled to punish all the animals (who were now in danger of getting eaten), even though they had nothing to do with the Fall of Man?

    Does this seem strange to anybody else?
     
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  2. Arikay

    Arikay HI

    +175
    Taoist
    Whats even stranger is that if god created all the animals, he created Lions, Tigers and bears, etc, with abilities purposly made for eating meat, like sharp teeth and claws. So he created them to expect the fall

    Not only that but many carnivores require things that they can only get by eating other animals. So somehow these non meat eating animals got fed these chemicals to keep them alive while they ate veggies.
     
  3. Orihalcon

    Orihalcon crazy dancing santa mage

    595
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    maybe piles of pre-slaughtered meat appeared each day in paradaise for them
     
  4. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    +1,462
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    Married
    US-Republican
    I posted about this some time back.

    Anyway, my thinking is this: If you watch a predator, you will find that, while it may be horrible and viscious, it is an *excellent* horrible and viscious predator.
     
  5. Mr Buddhist

    Mr Buddhist <font color="silver"><div style="width:100%; filte

    42
    +0
    You need predators, otherwise there'd be no plants as the herbivors (sp?) would multiply exponentially and eat them all.

    That's my non God explanation, unless God saw this and put them there, I don't know.
     
  6. judy

    judy Veteran

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    The reason I thought of asking this question is because I'm currently jobless and therefore have an opportunity to spend many daylight hours watching the National Geographic Channel and Animal Planet.

    When I see a terrified baby gazelle being brought down by a cheetah, it's just heartwrenching to see the fear and horror in that baby's eyes.

    No wonder paradise is seen as a place where the lion and the lamb can lie down together. Killing each other for food (we do it too, I enjoy hamburgers as much as the next red-blooded American) is just so horrible and brutal.

    The fact that nature is so "red of tooth and claw" (I forget who said that originally) is ample evidence to me that there is no benevolent, loving god watching over all of us.
     
  7. Late_Cretaceous

    Late_Cretaceous &lt;font color=&quot;#880000&quot; &gt;&lt;/font&g

    +106
    Catholic
    If there was no death, but reproduction occured - wouldn't the planet get pretty crowded?

    In fact, life cannot exist without death. Some degree of cell death is even necessary in the development of the human embryo (otherwise I would have a hard time typing all this with fused fingers!).

    So doesn't the concept of a world without death violate the very notion of life?
     
  8. Frumious Bandersnatch

    Frumious Bandersnatch Contributor

    +304
    Unitarian
    I have had some well known creationists, including Helen formerly of CARM now of the Baptist Board claim that there were no carnivores before the flood not the fall. So what do YECs here think? Was it after the fall or after the flood that animals started eating each other?

    The Frumious Bandersnatch
     
  9. DNAunion

    DNAunion Active Member

    677
    +0
    DNAunion: Let's not forget that "veggies" are also alive. So animals eating them would still require death to occur.
     
  10. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +19
    Jehovahs Witness
    According to scripture it is reasonable to conclude that there was death in Eden prior to the fall.&nbsp;

    Only Man was given the prospect of "everlasting life" not the animals.&nbsp; Adam would have seen the animals die of natural causes as it appears to be evident that they were&nbsp;created that way&nbsp;as is suggested by peters words at 2 Peter 2:12 "But these [men], like unreasoning animals born naturally to be caught and destroyed."

    Also Ecclesiastes 3:18-20 says: “I said in my heart concerning the speaking of the sons of men, that God might make it clear to them, and that they might see that they by themselves are but beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even the same thing befalleth them; as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one kind of spirit: so that the preeminence of man above the beast is nought; for all is vanity. Every thing goeth unto one place: every thing came from the dust, and every thing returneth to the dust”
    &nbsp;

    Ecclesiastes&nbsp;also seems to suggest that due to the condemnation to death that man inherited from Adam, we have now&nbsp;become like the lower animals that die, not that animals are condemned to death for sin, but again, because God did not create them to live forever.

    Also when God told Adam that the penalty for willfull disobedience was death, Adam didn't question it, he seemed to know what death was which would have been the case had he seen death first hand as it were&nbsp;in Eden.&nbsp;

    &nbsp;
     
  11. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    There was no death from sin. Sense you have time, read David Rohl's description of what He believe is the Garden in Eden, where the tree of life was. Adam and Eve died, because they were thrown out of the Garden and could not get to the tree of life.

    http://tlc.discovery.com/convergence/eden/expertqa.html

    When I was in Flordia, I went to a little zoo in the West Palm Beach area, with is a fairly wealthy area down there. It was a nice little zoo. There were some very big turtles there that they said were 300 years old. It seems that reptile keep growing. If you have a alligator that is 25 feet in size, it is because it is a very old alligator, that has lived long enough to get that big.

    Dinosaur are usually reptiles. If they got as big as they did back then, it was because they lived a long life.

    Mission control, we have a problem here. Sin did not enter into the world untell Adam and Eve 6000 years ago. In fact Sin was the name of the moon god of the Sumerian people.

    So, if you have any bones from over 6000 years ago, that have any tooth marks on them, showing that animal was eaten by another animal. Then animals eating animals was going on before Adam and Eve and sin entered the world.

    Now, I do not know if animals were eating each other longer than 6000 years ago, that is a science question, not theology. You will have to check with your science teacher on that one.
     
  12. webboffin

    webboffin NOT APPLICABLE

    +2
    OH MY!!!!
     
  13. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
     
  14. judy

    judy Veteran

    +74
    Agnostic
    Married

    Are you saying there was death amongst animals and vegetables, but not humans?

    Or that there was death in the rest of the world, but not the Garden of Eden?




    :confused:
     
  15. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
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    Adam and Eve still had the potential for redemption and eternal life. The animals were born to die "naturally". It was not natural for Adam and Eve to die, because they were not born to die. They were born to live forever. They had a part of God in them, that they could have lived forever.

    Still, what your saying is a nice contribution to the discussion, I am just trying to develop it a bit further.
     
  16. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    There was no death in the Garden of Eden because the tree of life was there. As soon as Adam and Eve fell into sin, they were thrown out of the garden so they would not eat of the tree of life.

    Even now, only those who are redeemed will eat from the tree of life. Only those who drink from the river of&nbsp;the water of life.

    Rev. 22:1-2
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. [2] In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.




    &nbsp;
     
  17. judy

    judy Veteran

    +74
    Agnostic
    Married
    Okay, I'm trying to grasp this concept. There was the earth, and, except for the Garden of Eden, the rest of it was as we know it today - animals eating plants and each other, ecosystems, things dying so that other things may live. The balance of nature and all that.

    But, in the Garden of Eden, there was no death. So when God brought the animals over to Adam so he could name them, did these animals stay in the Garden and therefore never die? Or did they leave the Garden and eventually perish? Did a select few get to stay and enjoy eternal life in paradise with God's immortal humans?

    What did A&E subsist on? Even if they were vegetarians, their eating habits would have caused the death of at least a number of plants.

    Why would God include death in his natural plan for all living things other than humans?

    I'm coming to the conclusion that this sort of thinking is just another attempt to elevate humans above the natural order of other living things. To try to obtain a feeling of being somehow "special."
     
  18. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +19
    Jehovahs Witness
    I was trying to say that death is a natural thing among all creation except humans.&nbsp; All life on this planet was created to have a natural cycle of life and death including all animal life, but humans, made in God's image and an intelegent creation was created to live for ever and never experience death. Ecclesiastes 3:11 "Everything he has made pretty in its time. Even time indefinite he has put in their (mankinds)&nbsp;heart, that mankind may never find out the work that the [true] God has made from the start to the finish".&nbsp;

    What does this mean? It means that under normal circumstances people desire to live without dying.&nbsp; It is usually things like old age and the problems that accompany it along with such things as sickness physical and mental that tend to diminish our desire for life.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;


    It was Man's rebellion in Eden that brought death to the human race.&nbsp; Although the first human couple disobeyed God, and therefore proving themselves unfit to live forever, God’s original purpose for man to live forever in true peace and happiness upon the earth&nbsp;did not change. It must and will&nbsp;be fulfilled! Isaiah 55:11 "so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it".

    The Bible also make these&nbsp;promises: Psalm 37:29&nbsp;&nbsp;"The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it."

    Matthew 5:5 “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.

    Often the Bible tells us&nbsp;of God’s&nbsp;purpose to give humans who serve him everlasting life.

    John 3:14-16 "And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life.&nbsp;&nbsp;“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life".

    John 3:36 "He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him".

    Isaiah 25:8 "He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces. And the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for Jehovah himself has spoken [it]".

    Revelation 21:3, 4 "With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

    &nbsp;




    &nbsp;
     
  19. judy

    judy Veteran

    +74
    Agnostic
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    Lightbearer, I'm going to copy my questions from the post above yours, since you may have missed it.

     
  20. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +19
    Jehovahs Witness
    Hi Judy, sorry if I missed your point.&nbsp;

    The cycle of life and death existed inside of Eden as well as outside.&nbsp; Animals and plants&nbsp;were created naturally to die, only humans had the prospect of living forever.&nbsp; As far as plants are concerned we cannot look upon the death as you call it of a plant the same way as we would an animal and far less than we would a human.

    Plants were created for and always considered part of the foodchain from the begining.

    God gave plants as food for man&nbsp;and for animals.&nbsp; Genesis 1:29-30 "And God went on to say: “Here I have given to YOU all vegetation bearing seed which is on the surface of the whole earth and every tree on which there is the fruit of a tree bearing seed. To YOU let it serve as food. And to every wild beast of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving upon the earth in which there is life as a soul I have given all green vegetation for food.” And it came to be so".

    At this time there is no mention of any meat being allowed for food for Man or animals,&nbsp;just vegetation, fruit, grains and so on.

    That God considers Humans far, far above the animal kingdom being made in the image of God and therefore a higher creation is evident from the fact that&nbsp;Adam was given dominion over all the animals and was to carry it out in a responsible way.

    Of man’s creation, we read: Gen 1:26&nbsp;“God went on to say: ‘Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.’” (Sadly today because of sin and the corruption it has brought into the world&nbsp;this is not the case and man exploits them horribly).&nbsp;

    God added (after the flood of Noah's day) the eating of animal flesh&nbsp;for food.&nbsp;

    Genesis 9:2-7 Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for YOU. As in the case of green vegetation, I do give it all to YOU.&nbsp;&nbsp;Only flesh with its soul—its blood—YOU must not eat.&nbsp;&nbsp;And, besides that, YOUR blood of YOUR souls shall I ask back. From the hand of every living creature shall I ask it back; and from the hand of man, from the hand of each one who is his brother, shall I ask back the soul of man.&nbsp;&nbsp;Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image he made man.&nbsp;&nbsp;And as for YOU men, be fruitful and become many, make the earth swarm with YOU and become many in it.”

    Yet to shed Man's blood was considered murder and was to be avenged.

    Jesus in illustrations showed that God cares about all his creation yet he considers Man in a superior way.&nbsp;

    Matthew 6:25-30 “On this account I say to YOU: Stop being anxious about YOUR souls as to what YOU will eat or what YOU will drink, or about YOUR bodies as to what YOU will wear. Does not the soul mean more than food and the body than clothing?&nbsp;&nbsp;Observe intently the birds of heaven, because they do not sow seed or reap or gather into storehouses; still YOUR heavenly Father feeds them. Are YOU not worth more than they are?&nbsp;&nbsp;Who of YOU by being anxious can add one cubit to his life span?&nbsp;&nbsp;Also, on the matter of clothing, why are YOU anxious? Take a lesson from the lilies of the field, how they are growing; they do not toil, nor do they spin; but I say to YOU that not even Sol´o·mon in all his glory was arrayed as one of these.&nbsp;&nbsp;If, now, God thus clothes the vegetation of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much rather clothe YOU, YOU with little faith?

    Matthew 10:29 Do not two sparrows sell for a coin of small value? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without YOUR Father’s [knowledge].&nbsp;&nbsp;But the very hairs of YOUR head are all numbered.&nbsp;&nbsp;Therefore have no fear: YOU are worth more than many sparrows.

    Adam was a human "Son of God" an inteligent creature,&nbsp;therefore he was the crowning glory of God's earthly creation and what everything else was made for. As such he&nbsp;was far superior to all other created things on earth.
     
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