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Carnivores - why do they exist?

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by judy, Mar 28, 2003.

  1. judy

    judy Veteran

    Thank you Lightbearer. Generally I don't like answers full of biblical quotations, but your reply was very lucid. Your knowledge of the Bible seems quite formidable!

    Pretend that Adam and Eve never sinned. Pretend that all of us are still living in the Garden of Eden, perfectly happy in communion with God, filled with bliss all the time.

    How happy could you actually be while witnessing the death of a baby gazelle being cruelly killed by a lioness?

    Say you had a child, like my daughter, who loved all of God's creatures, great and small. How free from pain would her life be, as she had to bid farewell to one small pet after another as they died of old age?

    You see, happiness to me is incompatible with the death of any cute fuzzy animals in my vicinity.

    Now, spiders and mosquitos are a whole other story!
  2. lucaspa

    lucaspa Legend

    For every example of survival by killing, there is also an example of survival by cooperation.  Think of all the symbiotic relationships out there.

    Have you seen the program yet documenting the boom and bust cycle among herbivores if there are not predators? There was an excellent study of deer on islands.  The population expands until they have eaten all the vegetation and then 90%+ of the animals starve. It's just as horrible watching a baby who is all bones and skin stagger around until it collapses.

    There are no lessons about the existence or non-existence of a benevolent, loving deity in nature.  Arguments can be made both ways.

    "1.  Evolution means only that all organisms are united by ties of genealogical descent.  This definition says nothing about the mechanism of evolutionary change:  In principle, externally directed upward striving might work as well as the caricatured straw man of bloody Darwinian battle to the death.  The objections, then, are to Darwin's theory of natural selection, not to evolution itself.
    2.  Darwin's theory of natural selection is an abstract argument about a metaphorical "struggle" to leave more offspring in subsequent generations, not a statement about murder and mayhem.  Direct elimination of competitors is one pathway to Darwinian advantage, but another might reside in cooperation through social ties within a species or by symbiosis between species.  For every act of killing and division, natural selection can also favor cooperation and integration in other circumstances.  Nineteenth-century interpreters did generally favor a martial view of selection, but to every militarist, we may counterpose a Prince Kropotkin, urging that the "real" Darwinism be recognized as a doctrine of integration and "mutual aid."
    3.  Whatever Darwinism represents on the playing fields of nature (and by representing both murder and cooperation at different times, it upholds neither as nature's principal way), Darwinism implies nothing about moral conduct.  We do not find our moral values in the actions of nature.  One might argue, as Thomas Henry Huxley did in his famous essay "Evolution and Ethics," that Darwinism embodies a law of battle, and that human morality must be defined as the discovery of an opposite path.  Or one might argue, as grandson Julian did, that Darwinism is a law of cooperation and that moral conduct should follow nature.  If two such brilliant and committed Darwinians could come to such opposite opinions about evolution and ethics, I can only conclude that Darwinism offers no moral guidance."
    Stephen Jay Gould, essay "William Jennings Bryan's last campaign" in Bully for Brontosaurus, 1991 pp. 426-427.
  3. lucaspa

    lucaspa Legend

     :(  then your criteria is worthless, if it does not apply to all creatures. 

    My kids have had to say farewell to three cats so far.  I'm not sure life was ever supposed to be "free of pain". Each cat in turn provided happiness.  Each death provided sadness.

    A well-rounded person needs both.  How emotionally complete is a person that only knows happiness and never sorrow?  Can they ever be said to grow and reach their potential if you always protect them from sorrow?

    So, if God is a parent, then as a parent God has to be concerned with the total mental health of His children.  Shielding them from pain and sorrow is not being a good parent.

    I'm sorry, but your argument against the existence of deity simply isn't a good argument.
  4. judy

    judy Veteran


    Again, I have to ask - What if Adam and Eve hadn't sinned?

    Did God intend for us to suffer, for some mysterious reason, even if the human race had remained without sin?

    If so, do you anticipate much suffering in heaven? You want to remain well-rounded for eternity, don't you?

    Or do you believe that witnessing/experiencing suffering here on earth is enough of a trial, and accomplishes enough "rounding," to merit a pain-free eternity?
  5. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    Jehovahs Witness
    Hi Judy,

    Fortunalely, it is evident this didn't happen in or out of Eden prior to the flood.  God's original purpose was that animals not only be at peace with Man but also with each other and this was the state of things prior to the flood.  After the flood much of earths food sources would have been destroyed and maybe for this reason God allowed other food sources to be eaten.  Also he would set up a system of sacrifices that would eventually lead to the one and finnal sacrifice of the Messiah that would provide the legal basis for returning the earth to the peacfull state that existed on earth prior to Adams sin.  Whatever, the situation we find today where as you say a lion preys on a young gazelle (and yes, i can see why many would find this an unpleasant thing to witness) is only a temporary situation as is all human suffering also.  But to stay with your point, the followig promise is made by God about restoring the peacfull state between man and beast and beast and beast.

    At Isaiah 11:6-9 "And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. 7 And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. 8 And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. 9 They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea".

    All this will be accomplished under the rule of Jesus Christ when God's kingdom (Which many have prayed for in the so called Lords Prayer "Let your Kingdom come let your will be done on earth as in heaven").  Under that righteous government your daughter would never have to witness such things again.



  6. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    Perhaps that is why we are told that Adam and Eve experanced so much grief when they were thrown out of the Garden of Eden.

    In the Garden the animals were all what we today would call domesticated animals. They did not eat one another. Life was different in the Garden, compared to what it was in the world outside of the Garden of Eden.

    For 1000 years this whole planet will become like the Garden of Eden. We will live, rule and reign here with Christ for 1000 years.

    It is obvious that God is drawing you to this, because in your heart you desire to return to Eden and be a part of it.

    In Eden we are clothed when kindness, gentleness, love, mercy, grace, forgiveness. We could write a whole dictionary on the different things we will be clothed with, and you could write a whole book on each one of those things.

    Here are a few of the garments we are to wear:

    Put on the garments of:











    Self control





    One mind (no fussing)





    Blessings untold








    Deep thoughts

    An understanding heart

    Separation from everything that Jesus was separated from


    Full assurance

    Complete trust

    His will to do all of His will

    Knowing what all the will of God is

    Being on time, i.e.: God’s time



    Hunger and thirst for the Holy Ghost

    I will! I can!

    To run after Jesus because He is drawing on you

    Godly fear with honor and respect

    Holy boldness

    Miracle power

    Healing power

    Calvary’s compassion

    An obedient life




    Waiting upon the Lord

    Encouragement to your own heart

    Pleasing God by using the garment of faith

    Reality of God

    Reality of Jesus

    Reality of the Holy Ghost<I>Every time these anointings are given out, it is another garment for you to wear,</I> saith the Lord.

    Freedom and liberty

    Witness (live your witness, don’t just talk it)

    Being an example of a true believer (live, walk, speak in truth0


    Being led by the Spirit and the Spirit only



    Pentecostal fire

    Purity of God


    Good report

    Meditation on the Word


    Fire of the Holy Ghost


    Holy conversation

    The whole armor of God


    Brotherly love

    Unity of the Spirit till we all come into unity

    Sound doctrine



    Sound speech




    To fight or war against the devil


    The six spiritual senses


    Forgetting the past

    Light, no darkness at all



    Fullness of Christ</DIR>Fullness of the Godhead

  7. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    If Adam and Eve had not sinned they still would have reproduced and multiplyed. As their family grew, then God would have expanded the size of the Garden of Eden, or at least the size of the Land of Eden, to fill the whole world.

    It is still God's plan to turn this whole world into an Eden, it is just taking Him 6 or 7000 years longer than planned.
  8. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    We are in a world that is perishing and people will perish right along with it, if they do not have the eternal life of Jesus in them.

    Everything we do, everything we live for, is to show people HOW they can receive eternal life and live forever.

    Jesus is the new and the living way, He came to bring us the abundant life. In the world we will know sorrow, but Jesus said, be of good cheer, because He has overcome the world.

    1 Cor. 15:54-57
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [55] "O Death, where is your sting?
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; O Hades, where is your victory?"
    [56] The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. [57] But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.