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Carl Sagan said it better than I can...

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Nuka

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"If the general theory of a big bang and an ever-expanding universe after that is correct, than what happened before that? Was the universe simply devoid of all matter, and then the matter appeared through means which we cannot fully comprehend, how did that happen? In many cultures, the customary answer is that a god or gods created the universe out of nothing, but if we wish to peruse this question courageously, we must of course ask ourselves the next question: where did god come from?

If we decide that this is a question that cannot be answered as we will never know the answer, then why not save a step and conclude that the origin of the universe is an unanswerable question? Or, if we say that god always existed, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always existed, and has no need for a creation - and it was always here?"
 

Agonaces of Susa

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Nuka said:
"If the general theory of a big bang and an ever-expanding universe after that is correct
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That's a big "if" considering Carl Sagan also said it's possible there was no Big Bang.

"There is nevertheless a nagging suspicion among some astronomers, that all may not be right with the deduction, from the redshift of galaxies via the Doppler effect, that the universe is expanding. The astronomer Halton Arp has found enigmatic and disturbing cases where a galaxy and a quasar, or a pair of galaxies, that are in apparent physical association have very different redshifts...." -- Carl E. Sagan, professor, 1985

"If Arp is right, the exotic mechanisms proposed to explain the energy source of distant quasars—supernova chain reactions, supermassive black holes and the like —would prove unnecessary. Quasars need not then be very distant. But some other exotic mechanism will be required to explain the redshift. In either case, something very strange is going on in the depths of space." -- Carl E. Sagan, professor, 1985
 
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caustic

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Agonaces of Susa said:
That's a big "if" considering Carl Sagan also said it's possible there was no the Big Bang.
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Not really considering he still thought it was probable that there was a big bang.

You're also failing to take into account the fact that we can measure the distance to type Ia supernovae (and any other astronomical object of a standard brightness) and that it corresponds perfectly with what we expect from our measurements with redshifts. That is to say the universe is expanding, and that it's rate of expansion is increasing.

I'd post the link to a reference for the statement about measuring the distance to type Ia supernovae but I don't have the required post count.
 
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AV1611VET

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Nuka said:
Or, if we say that god always existed, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always existed, and has no need for a creation - and it was always here?"
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That would certainly save a step, but that step is not worth taking.

It's a step in the wrong direction.

If we conclude that God has always existed (as Jesus said), then we must also conclude that the universe did not exist, since God says He created it.
 
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MoonLancer

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that's right, we should make it more complicated and contrived.
 
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AV1611VET

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MoonLancer said:
that's right, we should make it more complicated and contrived.
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Um ... no ... simpler actually.

We have, in the beginning, God --- not God and the universe.

You cannot have both, or Sagat's whole point goes down the drain.
 
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Belk

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AV1611VET said:
Um ... no ... simpler actually.

We have, in the beginning, God --- not God and the universe.

You cannot have both, or Sagat's whole point goes down the drain.
Click to expand...

How is that simpler then in the beginning, universe?
 
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MoonLancer

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AV1611VET said:
Um ... no ... simpler actually.

We have, in the beginning, God --- not God and the universe.

You cannot have both, or Sagat's whole point goes down the drain.
Click to expand...

You have forgotten two simpler alternatives. In the

beginning there was the universe... full stop.

or that the universe created God. It would explain his very human personality in the old testament.
 
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AV1611VET

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MoonLancer said:
You have forgotten two simpler alternatives. In the

beginning there was the universe... full stop.
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That's what Scientism teaches (I think).

You have to remove God from the universe, before you can replace Him with nature.

This is the point Paul makes in the book of Romans.

We Christians say God has always existed --- in the spirit of what we call Diabolical Mimicry, atheists want to believe the universe has always existed.

But you can't have both.
 
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Nathan Poe

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Actually, we don't have to conclude that, since we have no reason to consider such a "God" to be at all trustworthy.
 
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Nathan Poe

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AV1611VET said:
We Christians say God has always existed --- in the spirit of what we call Diabolical Mimicry, atheists want to believe the universe has always existed.
Click to expand...

Not sure who the "we" that you're referring to might be, but you you might want to tell "them" that they have no idea what diabolical mimicry is.

Since this thread is about Carl Sagan and not you, why not tell "them" to run along and google it, and then "they" can come back and contribute something useful to the discussion?
 
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MoonLancer

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AV1611VET said:
That's what Scientism teaches (I think).
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Scientism is just a contrived word you came up with to muddy the debate water. It is not an ism.

The only thing i have seen creationism create are new slanderous words.
 
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AV1611VET

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MoonLancer said:
Scientism is just a contrived word you came up with to muddy the debate water. It is not an ism.
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You may want to consider changing this post so you won't look misinformed.

It's up to you, though.

You're zeal to accuse me of this is backfiring.
 
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SithDoughnut

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MoonLancer said:
Scientism is just a contrived word you came up with to muddy the debate water. It is not an ism.

The only thing i have seen creationism create are new slanderous words.
Click to expand...

Scientism is a real word:

1. the style, assumptions, techniques, practices, etc., typifying or regarded as typifying scientists.

2. the belief that the assumptions, methods of research, etc., of the physical and biological sciences are equally appropriate and essential to all other disciplines, including the humanities and the social sciences.

3. scientific or pseudoscientific language.

AV is misusing the word, as Scientism has no 'teachings'. However, it is still a word, if not a common one. Don't worry though, no zeal has 'backfired'
 
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caustic

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There would be very few atheists who consider the universe to have always existed. A big bang that happened 13-14 billion years ago is the theory with the most credence.
 
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BananaSlug

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AV1611VET said:
That's what Scientism teaches (I think).
Click to expand...

Science can only explain natural phenomena with natural explanations. Science is really agnostic in this sense. You yourself have stated God has hidden evidence of creation and the flood. Science cannot make statements on events that do not have evidence.

You have to remove God from the universe, before you can replace Him with nature.
Click to expand...

The only reason you believe in God is because you have a book that tells you to. The universe itself does not show there is a deity, and if all of the evidence of his creation is hidden (like you state) that means there is no direct evidence for the existence of one.

This is the point Paul makes in the book of Romans.
Click to expand...

Which is your interpretation just as much as it was mine. However, I used the original language and the context in which Paul was speaking.

We Christians say God has always existed --- in the spirit of what we call Diabolical Mimicry, atheists want to believe the universe has always existed.
Click to expand...

If there is no observable physical evidence for such a being, why believe such a thing exists? There are other religions and religious texts that state deities exist yet you do not believe in them. Why? If no physical evidence exists to show the existence of any particular deity, then there is equal chance any religion could be right or wrong.
 
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