Cardinal Walter Kasper says..

[stephenc]

"The Catholic Church believes there should be no connection between ecclesiastical and worldly power. History has taught us this. The Catholic Church's self-understanding is that it doesn't seek worldly privelige; it seeks freedom."

Well that's what he said.

(Interview during visit to Oslo)

 

[Virgil the Roman]

How hasn't this man been stripped of his Cardinalate yet? He's said so many ambiguous and nigh-heretical things in the past; it makes me want to vomit. I'm really hoping that the Roman Pontiff would discipline the man. Deus Misereatur.

Let us pray for our Roman Pontiff, that he may not fear those ravenous wolves of Error, but preach and enforce the orthodox Truth of the Holy Catholic Faith; and that he may discipline his flock. Amen.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Why would Pope Benedict strip this Cardinal of his position, when the Pope would most likely be in agreement with this statement.

"The Catholic Church believes there should be no connection between ecclesiastical and worldly power. History has taught us this. The Catholic Church's self-understanding is that it doesn't seek worldly privelige; it seeks freedom."

In hid book, "Values in Times of Upheaval," Pope Benedict, stresses the importance of the separation of powers between the state and religion.

Jim

 

[QuantaCura]

I think it should probably be "shouldn't seek worldly honors" as there have been plenty of members of the Church throughout history who have sought such vain honors (and Saints in every generation telling clerics and the faithful not to). There is also the issue of clerics acting as rulers in the temporal sphere (the president of Paraguay, a bishop, was suspended a divinis; the "Gregorian reforms" of St. Gregory VII also countered this problem when it arose in his time). I think that is what His Emminence is speaking of.

That being said, such a doctrine may be twisted by those who wish to see the state have unbridled autonomy--rather, the state is still subject to God and truth. And as Bl. John XXIII stated, the Church is the Mater et Magistra, the Mother and Teacher of all Nations. Her teaching should inform the state and the state and Church should work together in harmony and mutual concord since both are subject to the same God aand both have the good of mankind as their common end.

Today, the impediments to the spread of Christ's Kingdom are experienced most dramatically in the split between the Gospel and culture, with the exclusion of God from the public sphere...Certain values detached from their moral roots and full significance found in Christ have evolved in the most disturbing of ways. In the name of 'tolerance' society has had to endure the folly of the redefinition of spouse, and in the name of 'freedom of choice' it is confronted with the daily destruction of unborn children. When the Creator's divine plan is ignored the truth of human nature is lost.

False dichotomies are not unknown within the Christian community itself. They are particularly damaging when Christian civic leaders sacrifice the unity of faith and sanction the disintegration of reason and the principles of natural ethics, by yielding to ephemeral social trends and the spurious demands of opinion polls. Democracy succeeds only to the extent that it is based on truth and a correct understanding of the human person. Catholic involvement in political life cannot compromise on this principle; otherwise Christian witness to the splendour of truth in the public sphere would be silenced and an autonomy from morality proclaimed.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/b...f_ben-xvi_spe_20060908_canada-ontario_en.html

13. The Almighty, therefore, has given the charge of the human race to two powers, the ecclesiastical and the civil, the one being set over divine, and the other over human, things. Each in its kind is supreme, each has fixed limits within which it is contained, limits which are defined by the nature and special object of the province of each, so that there is, we may say, an orbit traced out within which the action of each is brought into play by its own native right.
---
There must, accordingly, exist between these two powers a certain orderly connection, which may be compared to the union of the soul and body in man. The nature and scope of that connection can be determined only, as We have laid down, by having regard to the nature of each power, and by taking account of the relative excellence and nobleness of their purpose. One of the two has for its proximate and chief object the well-being of this mortal life; the other, the everlasting joys of heaven. Whatever, therefore in things human is of a sacred character, whatever belongs either of its own nature or by reason of the end to which it is referred, to the salvation of souls, or to the worship of God, is subject to the power and judgment of the Church. Whatever is to be ranged under the civil and political order is rightly subject to the civil authority. Jesus Christ has Himself given command that what is Caesar's is to be rendered to Caesar, and that what belongs to God is to be rendered to God.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13sta.htm

The two spheres are distinct, yet always interrelated.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/b...ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

It is only right, however, that at all times and in all places, the Church should have true freedom to preach the faith, to teach her social doctrine, to exercise her role freely among men, and also to pass moral judgment in those matters which regard public order when the fundamental rights of a person or the salvation of souls require it.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_.../vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html

The direct duty to work for a just ordering of society, on the other hand, is proper to the lay faithful. As citizens of the State, they are called to take part in public life in a personal capacity. So they cannot relinquish their participation “in the many different economic, social, legislative, administrative and cultural areas, which are intended to promote organically and institutionally the common good.” [21] The mission of the lay faithful is therefore to configure social life correctly, respecting its legitimate autonomy and cooperating with other citizens according to their respective competences and fulfilling their own responsibility.[22] Even if the specific expressions of ecclesial charity can never be confused with the activity of the State, it still remains true that charity must animate the entire lives of the lay faithful and therefore also their political activity, lived as “social charity”.[23]​

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/b...ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

51. Governmental authority, therefore, is a postulate of the moral order and derives from God. Consequently, laws and decrees passed in contravention of the moral order, and hence of the divine will, can have no binding force in conscience, since "it is right to obey God rather than men "(34).

Indeed, the passing of such laws undermines the very nature of authority and results in shameful abuse. As St. Thomas teaches, "In regard to the second proposition, we maintain that human law has the rationale of law in so far as it is in accordance with right reason, and as such it obviously derives from eternal law. A law which is at variance with reason is to that extent unjust and has no longer the rationale of law. It is rather an act of violence."(35)

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j...cuments/hf_j-xxiii_enc_11041963_pacem_en.html

4. And, since where religion has been removed from civil society, and the doctrine and authority of divine revelation repudiated, the genuine notion itself of justice and human right is darkened and lost, and the place of true justice and legitimate right is supplied by material force, thence it appears why it is that some, utterly neglecting and disregarding the surest principles of sound reason, dare to proclaim that "the people's will, manifested by what is called public opinion or in some other way, constitutes a supreme law, free from all divine and human control; and that in the political order accomplished facts, from the very circumstance that they are accomplished, have the force of right." But who, does not see and clearly perceive that human society, when set loose from the bonds of religion and true justice, can have, in truth, no other end than the purpose of obtaining and amassing wealth, and that (society under such circumstances) follows no other law in its actions, except the unchastened desire of ministering to its own pleasure and interests?

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanta.htm

 

[Rhamiel]

also there is a rule agianst clergy holding political office, it is a kinda old rule too right? so this is the norm for the modern Church.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Why would Pope Benedict strip this Cardinal of his position, when the Pope would most likely be in agreement with this statement.




In hid book, "Values in Times of Upheaval," Pope Benedict, stresses the importance of the separation of powers between the state and religion.

Jim

If you heard or read some of the things Cardinal Kaspar's said; then perhaps, you might be more inclined to believe me. Kaspar has in the past proclaimed the continual "validity of the Old Testament covenant as pertaining for enabling the Jews to be saved." And has said to the Traditional Anglican Communion for them, not to convert to the One True Catholic Faith. Christ fulfilled the Old covenant and established the New Covenant (New Testament); the old is fulfilled and no longer binding; for Christ has superseded it with himself; and by his new Testament: established his Church: the New Israel.

 

[QuantaCura]

How hasn't this man been under interdict, or stripped of his Cardinalate yet? He's said so many heretical and nigh-heretical things; it makes me want to vomit. I'm really hoping that the Roman Pontiff would've done this by now, or excommunicate the man. Deus Misereatur. I'm surprised as much of an "Arch-Conservative" as they said Benedict XVI was; he's not really. He's a moderate pope.

Let us pray for our Roman Pontiff, that he may not fear those ravenous wolves of Error, but preach and enforce the orthodox Truth of the Holy Catholic Faith. Amen.

I think you are passing a bit of a rash judgment. Check out the above post of mine.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

I think you are passing a bit of a rash judgment. Check out the above post of mine.

It's not really this I was referencing; but Cardinal Kaspar in general. He's said alot of inexpedient things that are very nigh to heresy in the past. I was just lamenting that in general; for when Cardinal Kaspar opens his mouth: I've come to expect some ambiguous or scandalous statement to pop out. I'm not attempting to be rash; only I see a good portion of what Cardinal Kaspar typically issues in his many statements sound oftenly scandalous, ambiguous or highly questionable. I should've been more specific and for that I apologize.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

I think you are passing a bit of a rash judgment. Check out the above post of mine.

I read them; they're very good, I do not object to them. So don't worry.

 

[Rochir]

It's not really this I was referencing; but Cardinal Kaspar in general. He's said alot of inexpedient things that are very nigh to heresy in the past. I was just lamenting that in general; for when Cardinal Kaspar opens his mouth: I've come to expect some ambiguous or quasi-heretical statement to pop out. I'm not being rash. I should've been more specific and for that I apologize.

Examples?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I'd have to read what he actually wrote, to see the full context of what he was getting at.

My post was in responce to what was stated in this thread

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Examples?

His statements on the Jewish Covenant being still valid for them. ....uhm, yeah....that's one. I can't remember where the others are....