Capitalism and Heaven

[Anguspure]

The thread is not about political systems in heaven, but principles. Will heaven be based on equality for all, where no people are above others, and where everyone receives an equal share of the joy that God provides? Or will some people receive ("earn", whatever word you want to use) more of God's joy than others?

Such principles for instance can not exist in capitalism - as with other pyramid systems, there must always be those that are higher, richer, more well off than others.

This passage:
"At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me."

So we see that there is inequality, or a ranking, if you wish to call it such, in the kingdom in that those who lower themselves below the rest are in fact the greatest.

When we choose to lower ourselves and let the Spirit work through us, that is when we become Christ like and, like Christ, become the Father to others.

In that respect we can see even in this world, here and now, that those who are closest to God receive more of Him, and those of us who choose to maintain ourselves and don't trust Him enough to lower ourselves in this way, receive less of Him.

I can see no reason why this would not continue to be the principle in the kingdom of heaven even in the new heavens and earth. It is, after all, how we were created to live in the first place.

 

[Anguspure]

It seems odd to try to describe heaven in terms of a political system when Christ described it in terms of a marriage. It seems off base to try to attach a monetary understanding such as Capitalism or Communism to it when it is about entering into the experience of love.

I understand the question, but the response seems far afield.

Although to be fair Jesus did describe the kingdom in financial terms on a number of occasions, so its not really all that far afield.

 

[Sketcher]

Question for people: how do you imagine heaven to be more like?

Will heaven be a place where all souls are respected and fully upheld, where "every tear will be wiped," where all souls will be equal, and receive an equal "share of the joy" under God, where there will be no injustice, no inequality, no "richer" or "poorer" social classes...

Or will heaven be about "getting one over" the other souls, prospering where others fail, taking advantage of opportunities where others do not have them, enjoying luck while others find misfortune, making use of your abilities, while others lag behind because of disability or lack of ability...

If it's more the 1st version, and yet you are a capitalist...how do you reconcile the two? Would heaven not bother you, if it's the opposite of what you support on earth? As imperfect as humans will always be, shouldn't we at least be trying, as much as we can, to mirror what is good?

Capitalism is the best economic system human beings have ever come up with. It does more to elevate people out of abject poverty and prosper the general population than the best intended central planning by a government body. Heaven, unlike Earth, is foretold not to have the problem of scarcity like we have, and we will be in direct communion with God who is far wiser and more compassionate than any government or other body of human beings could ever imagine being. Hence, I wouldn't trust anyone other than God to plan an economy. And the oppression that communism brought is evidence enough to me why people shouldn't bother with it anymore.

 

[Anguspure]

"What is it about freedom you don't like?

To which the people replied "The repeated and consistent way in which evil men use their freedom to enslave and oppress the vulnerable and the weak."
The truth is that no government in this sinful world mandated by the people, and committed to serving the constituency can afford to be truly laissez faire.
After all none of us would allow the local car dealer to practice his trade on our 5 year old without the appropriate supervision.

 

[HighwayMan]

This passage:
"At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me."

So we see that there is inequality, or a ranking, if you wish to call it such, in the kingdom in that those who lower themselves below the rest are in fact the greatest.

When we choose to lower ourselves and let the Spirit work through us, that is when we become Christ like and, like Christ, become the Father to others.

In that respect we can see even in this world, here and now, that those who are closest to God receive more of Him, and those of us who choose to maintain ourselves and don't trust Him enough to lower ourselves in this way, receive less of Him.

I can see no reason why this would not continue to be the principle in the kingdom of heaven even in the new heavens and earth. It is, after all, how we were created to live in the first place.

Yes, that's interesting, and in a way, could pose even a bigger problem for dedicated capitalists. How will those who have "achieved" and "prospered" much more than others in this life, and truly believe that to be because of their skill/hard-work/intelligence, be able to lower themselves in such a way, especially if they believe those who failed did so because of their own faults, laziness etc? Can you imagine, say, a New York billionaire who lives in giant towers and gleefully "wins" enough to lead an entire nation to one day in heaven lower himself to a child, or to the poor "lazy" person who "failed" in everything in life and begged for food outside of his towers, and accept, for all eternity, that he is not better than them in any way shape or form?

 

[Anguspure]

Yes, that's interesting, and in a way, could pose even a bigger problem for dedicated capitalists. How will those who have "achieved" and "prospered" much more than others in this life, and truly believe that to be because of their skill/hard-work/intelligence, be able to lower themselves in such a way, especially if they believe those who failed did so because of their own faults, laziness etc? Can you imagine, say, a New York billionaire who lives in giant towers and gleefully "wins" enough to lead an entire nation to one day in heaven lower himself to a child, or to the poor "lazy" person who "failed" in everything in life and begged for food outside of his towers, and accept, for all eternity, that he is not better than them in any way shape or form?

Something like this perhaps:

 

[TheSeabass]

Question for people: how do you imagine heaven to be more like?

Will heaven be a place where all souls are respected and fully upheld, where "every tear will be wiped," where all souls will be equal, and receive an equal "share of the joy" under God, where there will be no injustice, no inequality, no "richer" or "poorer" social classes...

Or will heaven be about "getting one over" the other souls, prospering where others fail, taking advantage of opportunities where others do not have them, enjoying luck while others find misfortune, making use of your abilities, while others lag behind because of disability or lack of ability...

If it's more the 1st version, and yet you are a capitalist...how do you reconcile the two? Would heaven not bother you, if it's the opposite of what you support on earth? As imperfect as humans will always be, shouldn't we at least be trying, as much as we can, to mirror what is good?

Communism is where all things are in common where property is confiscated then "equally shared". Therefore is salvation/heaven were based on Communism then would not all be 'equally saved" and you are pushing the idea of Universalism?

If one person were saved and another person not saved, then would you accuse the saved person of "getting something over" the unsaved person? Accuse the saved person of 'enjoying luck' while the lost person was just unlucky?