Capitalism and Heaven

[HighwayMan]

Question for people: how do you imagine heaven to be more like?

Will heaven be a place where all souls are respected and fully upheld, where "every tear will be wiped," where all souls will be equal, and receive an equal "share of the joy" under God, where there will be no injustice, no inequality, no "richer" or "poorer" social classes...

Or will heaven be about "getting one over" the other souls, prospering where others fail, taking advantage of opportunities where others do not have them, enjoying luck while others find misfortune, making use of your abilities, while others lag behind because of disability or lack of ability...

If it's more the 1st version, and yet you are a capitalist...how do you reconcile the two? Would heaven not bother you, if it's the opposite of what you support on earth? As imperfect as humans will always be, shouldn't we at least be trying, as much as we can, to mirror what is good?

 

[SnowyMacie]

Question for people: how do you imagine heaven to be more like?

Will heaven be a place where all souls are respected and fully upheld, where "every tear will be wiped," where all souls will be equal, and receive an equal "share of the joy" under God, where there will be no injustice, no inequality, no "richer" or "poorer" social classes...

Or will heaven be about "getting one over" the other souls, prospering where others fail, taking advantage of opportunities where others do not have them, enjoying luck while others find misfortune, making use of your abilities, while others lag behind because of disability or lack of ability...

If it's more the 1st version, and yet you are a capitalist...how do you reconcile the two? Would heaven not bother you, if it's the opposite of what you support on earth? As imperfect as humans will always be, shouldn't we at least be trying, as much as we can, to mirror what is good?

The first one. We are fallen humans, there is no system that actually works here on Earth, but I believe that in a perfect world, communism would flourish for the benefit of everyone, which is what Heaven is closest to describing when it talks about things. I read an article recently that I felt matched pretty close to what I think of when I think of Heaven's "economy"...
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/shopping-i-can-t-really-remember-what-that-is/

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Question for people: how do you imagine heaven to be more like?

Will heaven be a place where all souls are respected and fully upheld, where "every tear will be wiped," where all souls will be equal, and receive an equal "share of the joy" under God, where there will be no injustice, no inequality, no "richer" or "poorer" social classes...

Or will heaven be about "getting one over" the other souls, prospering where others fail, taking advantage of opportunities where others do not have them, enjoying luck while others find misfortune, making use of your abilities, while others lag behind because of disability or lack of ability...

If it's more the 1st version, and yet you are a capitalist...how do you reconcile the two? Would heaven not bother you, if it's the opposite of what you support on earth? As imperfect as humans will always be, shouldn't we at least be trying, as much as we can, to mirror what is good?

Axe to grind?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The first one. We are fallen humans, there is no system that actually works here on Earth, but I believe that in a perfect world, communism would flourish for the benefit of everyone, which is what Heaven is closest to describing when it talks about things. I read an article recently that I felt matched pretty close to what I think of when I think of Heaven's "economy"...
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/shopping-i-can-t-really-remember-what-that-is/

Communism is great! Just ask the 100,000,000 who were starved to death, shot, or poisoned by it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes

 

[JackRT]

I see heaven as a union with God perhaps not even with any sense of personal identity. Beyond that, I cannot say because all our attempts to nail down and define the transcendent are futile because they are beyond our human understanding.

 

[SnowyMacie]

Communism is great! Just ask the 100,000,000 who were starved to death, shot, or poisoned by it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes

I said "in a perfect world"

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Question for people: how do you imagine heaven to be more like?

Will heaven be a place where all souls are respected and fully upheld, where "every tear will be wiped," where all souls will be equal, and receive an equal "share of the joy" under God, where there will be no injustice, no inequality, no "richer" or "poorer" social classes...

Or will heaven be about "getting one over" the other souls, prospering where others fail, taking advantage of opportunities where others do not have them, enjoying luck while others find misfortune, making use of your abilities, while others lag behind because of disability or lack of ability...

If it's more the 1st version, and yet you are a capitalist...how do you reconcile the two? Would heaven not bother you, if it's the opposite of what you support on earth? As imperfect as humans will always be, shouldn't we at least be trying, as much as we can, to mirror what is good?

Heaven's not going to be a democracy either.

If you're a supporter of democracy, how do you reconcile the two?

You reconcile them by realising here on earth we do not have a perfect leader, and have to make do with what we have. As such, democracy is flawed, but is the best system we have.

Once in heaven though, with a perfect God, clearly His absolute rule is the best system possible.

In the same way, there will be no need for capitalism in a world with a perfect God, who will provide all things for us, where no one will be in need, and does not have to share resources between us, or access a limited set of resources.

Here on earth though, there is a limited amount of resources we have, with imperfect and sinful leaders. Therefore systems that try to emulate prosperity for everyone, like communism, fail and are prone to corruption and abuse of power.

As such, capitalism isn't meant to be perfect, it is flawed, but it seems to be the best we can do with what we have here on earth, taking into account our limited resources and the sinful nature of people.

 

[Light of the East]

It seems odd to try to describe heaven in terms of a political system when Christ described it in terms of a marriage. It seems off base to try to attach a monetary understanding such as Capitalism or Communism to it when it is about entering into the experience of love.

I understand the question, but the response seems far afield.

 

[Mary7]

The first one. We are fallen humans, there is no system that actually works here on Earth, but I believe that in a perfect world, communism would flourish for the benefit of everyone, which is what Heaven is closest to describing when it talks about things.

From my understanding the current 'communism' is not true communism and it does not work. The early church was closer to true communism or even economic socialism than capitalism

 

[christos11]

Great Question... and indeed, Heaven is simply going to be amazing! What's perhaps the hardest to perceive about Heaven is that it is built on the foundation and in a framework of Perfect Love. Thus, in this state of being, there is no past or future... only the Now, and Now, and Now... thus there is no judgement, for love doesn't judge, for it sees everything forgiven and or otherwise honored, even though what is happening if less than rightous.

That said, Love to says NO... and in each moment, it takes a stand... surprising and perplexing to many, it is not a NO in defense in anything, but rather correction. For it reconizes Truth versus "untruth"... which is simply "out of alignment" with Perfect Love, which always moves in "the highest interest" of everyone!

Thus, from a commerce standpoint, heaven will have "no money"... which is a means of "conditional love" (meaning you give me your time and I will pay you money for it). Thus comes the mind bender... the hard to grash prospective: In heaven, everyone will be provided everything they desire, without condition; for in Heaven, we will be perfectly aligned with "God will for us" (everyone). And when we are "in alignment", we all will be loving what we are doing... so the contribution "to the whole" (the Oneness of Love) simply compliments everyone desires... where we all will be working in Love... which is loving "what we do and are guided to do". You see, this is already worked out by God, no different than the perfect movement of Nature and all Her Kingdoms.

All said... if you want to explore this more and the actual plan given for "Implementing Heaven on Earth"... read it here:

 

[dqhall]

I recall Jesus' parable about the vineyard owner who went to town to hire workers standing around idle. He hired some in the morning to work harvesting grapes, then he went back through out the day to hire more. He agreed to pay them a set amount, but they had to work to get the pay. They all worked different hours, but they got the same pay. Some thought it was not fair. They had no choice, but to accept the pay they agreed upon.

Other farmers pay per unit of produce harvested instead of by the day. In either system the worker agreed ahead of time to the pay scale.

Laziness and idleness are the road to ruin. A diligent man will build a house instead of protest in the streets for the government to give him free housing.

Venezuela flirted with Communism and Socialism. There are chronic food shortages and high inflation. People spent too much time standing in lines. The government tried to control everything to no avail.

https://www.ft.com/content/cdbcd9d2-a950-11e6-809d-c9f98a0cf216

 

[com7fy8]

If it's more the 1st version, and yet you are a capitalist...how do you reconcile the two? Would heaven not bother you, if it's the opposite of what you support on earth? As imperfect as humans will always be, shouldn't we at least be trying, as much as we can, to mirror what is good?

If capitalism = greed > the Bible is clear >

"But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition." (1 Timothy 6:9)

By the way, it doesn't say you have to be rich, here, in order to get all this trouble. But those who "desire" will have all this trouble. All a person has to do is desire to be rich, and this is enough to bring such trouble.

Heaven's not going to be a democracy

I included do not need to be the one making the decisions. God is so better ! ! !

Once in heaven though, with a perfect God, clearly His absolute rule is the best system possible.

But we now can have His perfect rule > in our "hearts", how He rules us > Colossians 3:15 > plus 1 John 4:18, how God's love rules in us

there will be no need for capitalism in a world with a perfect God,

I consider 1 Corinthians 9:19-23. Our Apostle Paul made himself "all things to all men" so . . . I consider . . . he could reach and share with any and all people. So, I might do some things capitalistic and democratic, but in order to share with capitalist and democratic people.

It seems odd to try to describe heaven in terms of a political system when Christ described it in terms of a marriage.

hmm . . . a yummy and nutritious insight

 

[marawuti]

Two observations - as sin will be removed from our context and our being there will be no need for political / economic systems
Second, "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create; for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy." Is 65:17,18
We won't even remember this context of sin where such systems had their origins.

 

[Greg J.]

The noteworthy aspect of Capitalism in my mind is that it is a social system that uses wealth as a way to stratify individuals, then they learn "social skills" to learn to live within that social strata. Our strata affects what our education will be like, the kind of people we spend time with, and so forth.

Other systems of government use other criteria, or similar criteria with other variations, but in the end, they all stratify, because there is going to be a large range of inconsistent perspectives in any large group of people. Because of the fallen part of human nature, there will be an attempt to protect one's "rights" according to their view, ultimately using force or suffering diminished numbers.

If that force is relatively fair, we have a society that is about as good of a condition that could be. If the force is not fair, we get a society that is roughly as bad as it could be.

None of these concepts apply in heaven, where we will all be in unity with God similar to how Jesus and the Father have unity with each other.

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. (John 17:20-23, 1984 NIV)

 

[Anguspure]

Question for people: how do you imagine heaven to be more like?

Will heaven be a place where all souls are respected and fully upheld, where "every tear will be wiped," where all souls will be equal, and receive an equal "share of the joy" under God, where there will be no injustice, no inequality, no "richer" or "poorer" social classes...

Or will heaven be about "getting one over" the other souls, prospering where others fail, taking advantage of opportunities where others do not have them, enjoying luck while others find misfortune, making use of your abilities, while others lag behind because of disability or lack of ability...

If it's more the 1st version, and yet you are a capitalist...how do you reconcile the two? Would heaven not bother you, if it's the opposite of what you support on earth? As imperfect as humans will always be, shouldn't we at least be trying, as much as we can, to mirror what is good?

Its really simple. The new heavens and earth will be governed under the principles of the kingdom as exemplified by Christ Jesus, the central principle being Agape Love, the free will act of lowering oneself for the benefit of our neighbour.
In this way the world will be governed from within every individual acting from the Spirit of God in them.

No current political or social system of governence or management evident on earth (aside from that, that exists already under the headship of Christ) comes even close to this because the inherent selfishness, sinfullness and poverty of spirit of mankind that must be compensated for in order for any system to actually work in a fallen world.

Christ calls us to another way, here and now, not in some etheral future time. But that way cannot be compared with any system of man and it involves acting in a way that worldly systems cannot even cater for or understand.

 

[SnowyMacie]

It seems odd to try to describe heaven in terms of a political system when Christ described it in terms of a marriage. It seems off base to try to attach a monetary understanding such as Capitalism or Communism to it when it is about entering into the experience of love.

I understand the question, but the response seems far afield.

Yes, it is a bit odd.

 

[SnowyMacie]

From my understanding the current 'communism' is not true communism and it does not work. The early church was closer to true communism or even economic socialism than capitalism

Yes, communism as Marx described it has never happened, and nobody has even really been that close to it.

 

[Ned Netterville]

Capitalism is a name meant to be pejorative given to a system of free markets by Karl Marx. Before Marx, the system was referred to by its French name, "laissez faire,' or "laissez faire, laissez passer," which was more descriptive of what the system is. The definition in Wiki is accurate: "Laissez-faire (/ˌlɛseɪˈfɛr-/, French: [lɛsefɛʁ] ( listen)) is an economic system in which transactions between private parties are free from government interference such as regulations, privileges, tariffs, and subsidies. The phrase laissez-faire is part of a larger French phrase and literally translates to "let (it/them) do", but in this context usually means to "let go"." Let do and let pass as instructions to government are how I think of it. In a large sense, capitalism is freedom, and if freedom prevails the only possible economic system is capitalism. Of its critics I inquire, "What is it about freedom you don't like?

Ludwig von Mises one of history's great economists, described the capitalist market economy in his magnum opus, Human Action, thus:

"The market economy is the social system of the division of labor under private ownership of the means of production. Everybody acts on his own behalf; but everybody's actions aim at the satisfaction of other people's needs as well as at the satisfaction of his own. Everybody in acting serves his fellow citizens. Everybody, on the other hand, is served by his fellow citizens. Everybody is both a means and an end in himself, an ultimate end for himself and a means to other people in their endeavors to attain their own ends. This system is steered by the market. The market directs the individual's activities into those channels in which he best serves the wants of his fellow men. There is in the operation of the market no compulsion and coercion."

The design, the operation of the market economy without interference by the violent state, is the most productive engine of human prosperity ever invented. Of course it wasn't "invented" by any human, although it took humans to recognize its value and describe its operation. Like the design of the Universe with its planets, stars and galaxies ordered by forces humans are only beginning to vaguely comprehend, the free market is, in my opinion, designed by the same Creator who brought order to the Universe.

I have no idea what heaven is like, any more than the author of this thread knows anything about heaven, and, evidently, knows even less about capitalism. As for the "kingdom of God," and the "kingdom of heaven," about which Jesus had a lot to say, I presume if it has an economic system, that system could only be laissez faire, since Jesus taught that the Truth will make you free, and free is what capitalism is all about.

 

[Winken]

ALL earthly things will have passed away. The newness of Heaven will be precisely that: New. Nothing can describe that newness now.

 

[HighwayMan]

The thread is not about political systems in heaven, but principles. Will heaven be based on equality for all, where no people are above others, and where everyone receives an equal share of the joy that God provides? Or will some people receive ("earn", whatever word you want to use) more of God's joy than others?

Such principles for instance can not exist in capitalism - as with other pyramid systems, there must always be those that are higher, richer, more well off than others.