capital punishment in America

[MacFall]

If life insurance became indemnity insurance then the insurance companies could have subrogation rights - which would mean that if you did collect life insurance and then received an award for the wrongful death claim, you would have to pay the insurance company back with some of the award or settlement from the lawsuit.

I would never subscribe to a company with that policy. So the problem is that there are not enough options among firms from which I can choose - and that is because the state has cartelized the insurance market to the point where few existing companies have any incentive to give more than the bare minimum service to their customers.

 

[KarrieTex]

So redirect that purpose to make restitution a priority, and expand the prison system to allow for different and more profitable kinds of work. That would also be the solution to your objection that taxpayers would have to pay for the work programs. The idea is that the inmates pay for them and taxpayers have nothing to do with it.

Of course as I said before, this would entail a lot of changes in the way things are currently run. It might mean that a few high-ranking bureaucrats have to take smaller paychecks. Weird, though - I can't seem to find any pity for them.

And then the LITTLE money they make would be enough??? You do realize these guys don't make even .50 cents an hour.

I am beginning to think you really don't have the knowledge about what is going on.

 

[KarrieTex]

I would never subscribe to a company with that policy. So the problem is that there are not enough options among firms from which I can choose - and that is because the state has cartelized the insurance market to the point where few existing companies have any incentive to give more than the bare minimum service to their customers.

What are you talking about? State has centeralized??

head is starting to hurt.

 

[MacFall]

And then the LITTLE money they make would be enough??? You do realize these guys don't make even .50 cents an hour.

Did you ever look at the disparity in incomes between people doing the same job in prison and out? Having a few friends who were in prison, I have. They are just as productive in either case - the difference is that while they are in prison, the bloated bureaucrats in charge get to take whatever they want off the top. That's what needs to change.

What are you talking about? State has centeralized??

head is starting to hurt.

Not centralized, cartelized. They have restricted entry into the market and thereby reduced competition to the point where companies have little incentive to offer better policies than the next guy. What little competition there is is more along the lines of who is the least bad rather than who is the best.

 

[KarrieTex]

they are dang lucky to be earning .50 cents. if i could do it i would make them work....hard labor...for nada.

that's it i need duct tape...tamara?????

 

[Tamara224]

That may not be sufficient to replace the loss of the victim's income.

Of course not. But that happens all the time even when it's not a criminal matter. I see it all the time in my job. A person gets severely injured in an accident caused by a drunk driver who didn't have insurance. The injured person may only have a $25,000 insurance policy of his/her own. What if their medical bills alone are $100,000? You can try suing the drunk driver but he probably doesn't own any property, has a crap job and child support payments equaling 75% of his income anyway. In other words, he's what we call "judgment proof". Like Karrie said - it's like squeezing blood from a turnip.

That's the fault of the prison system. Currently the philosophy is that the criminal has a debt to society, which he pays by sitting in a jail cell paid for by none other than the same society which he has wronged. That's horse crap. But a prison can be built around a factory, a quarry, a warehouse, or any other installation within which a criminal can work to pay off an actual debt.

Yeah, but in a way that's just passing the burden of his debt to society. If their debt is to society as a whole, then prisoners should work without pay. Then, I suppose, their wages could be earmarked to be paid to the families of their victims.

But then what about the criminal's family?

 

[MacFall]

they are dang lucky to be earning .50 cents. if i could do it i would make them work....hard labor...for nada.

that's it i need duct tape...tamara?????

So you would deprive everyone of the possibility of restitution because YOU PREFER that criminals be unproductive? Sorry for the bluntness, but that's plain selfish.

Yeah, but in a way that's just passing the burden of his debt to society. If their debt is to society as a whole, then prisoners should work without pay.

But that's the thing, their debt is not to society. Society is only a collection of individuals, most of whom have not been wronged by the criminal, and hence have no claim upon him or his labor.

Then, I suppose, their wages could be earmarked to be paid to the families of their victims.

Yes, but giving the criminal a return on his labor would probably serve as an incentive for him to work harder.

 

[KarrieTex]

So you would deprive everyone of the possibility of restitution because YOU PREFER that criminals be unproductive? Sorry for the bluntness, but that's plain selfish.



But that's the thing, their debt is not to society. Society is only a collection of individuals, most of whom have not been wronged by the criminal, and hence have no claim upon him or his labor.



Yes, but giving the criminal a return on his labor would probably serve as an incentive for him to work harder.

Unproductive??? You did NOT read what I typed. I said work for no money. Money does not equate productivity. Work hard...incentive for a criminal.....sigh....you have no clue

Their debt is to society as well. Who do you think pays for their defense attorney, the court costs, the salaries of those who guard them, the police who caught them....shall I go on?

Ultimately, their execution and death relieves the economic burden off of society.

 

[MacFall]

It may be the burden of society now, but it shouldn't be. It is not the criminal who imposes himself on society, but the government, who socializes the cost of crime. It is they who are to blame for that, and hence they who must lose when the system is reformed.

 

[Tamara224]

So you would deprive everyone of the possibility of restitution because YOU PREFER that criminals be unproductive? Sorry for the bluntness, but that's plain selfish.

I didn't read her post that way... I don't think that's what she meant.

But that's the thing, their debt is not to society. Society is only a collection of individuals, most of whom have not been wronged by the criminal, and hence have no claim upon him or his labor.

I kind of agree. But I don't think most people do. Crimes are technically committed against the state. That's how our system has been set up.

I wouldn't be adverse to a system that demanded labor from prisoners where they "earned" a fair wage based on profitability. Subtract the cost of the prisoner's room and board, then split the rest between the victim and the prisoner's family, paid directly to them.

At least then prisoners wouldn't be a drain on society.

Yes, but giving the criminal a return on his labor would probably serve as an incentive for him to work harder.

Perhaps.

 

[KarrieTex]

It may be the burden of society now, but it shouldn't be. It is not the criminal who imposes himself on society, but the government, who socializes the cost of crime. It is they who are to blame for that, and hence they who must lose when the system is reformed.

It's not socialized.

Never mind I give up...like talking to a brick wall.

 

[Tamara224]

Also, FTR, I voted but haven't stated it, I don't think....

I am in favor of the death penalty. I believe it's purpose is for punishment and deterrence. Granted, there are varying opinions on how effective it is as a deterrent. But I believe the main purpose is punishment.

And it does concern me that innocent people are sentenced to death. But I believe that advances in forensic sciences have lessened this risk considerably. I would urge that the death penalty only be available in cases where the evidence meets a certain standard of reliability.

I am also in favor of the death penalty for child molesters. I believe that crime is even more heinous than murder.

 

[MacFall]

How is it not socialized? The cost is created by the criminal when he damages his victim. The state in its capacity of dispute resolution monopolist imposes its own costs. And then who pays? You and everyone else within the tax jurisdiction of the state, who are forced to pay through taxation and inflation the costs of the criminal procedure. That is state socialism - the forceful imposition of a financial liability upon uninvolved third parties by the government.

 

[overit]

Just saying-inmates on death row cost us more then life imprisonment...

Costs of the Death Penalty | Death Penalty Information Center

 

[Obzocky]

- Personal post was too personal, removed -

 

[Sketcher]

Quickly yes. . . Cleanly no.

If you ask me if we are going to have executions, I don't want them to be clean, and I definatly want them to be public.

People should be able to look directly at what they are doing, seeing very clearly that a man is being put to death.

This serves two functions. One is that it makes it more of a detterent and it also brings it home exactly what we are doing. Then we can make a decision based on that.

To me when someone decides to do something "Out of sight" it indicates to me that they are unwilling or do not want to confront the reality of what they are doing.

I find firing squad to actually be one of the most approrpriate means of execution. It should be done with good high quality color footage of the execution made immediatly available for people to watch. If you don't want to watch it, don't support the death penalty. If you watch it and are cool with that, then great be a death penalty supporter.

But don't support anything you can't bring yourself to watch.

*I would say long drop hanging would also be acceptable however hanging often causes a lot of mistakes.*

Well, firing squad to me is "clean," as "cleanly" is a relative term. When I say "quick" and "clean", I mean relatively quick and relatively clean. People murder other people all kinds of nasty ways, and you can't really take all of these monsters out the same way they killed their victims, without becoming a monster yourself. I mean torturing someone for days until he or she dies, that's next-level sick. Just put a bullet in the perp's head and leave the real payback to the professionals after he dies. Or give him a seat in the chair, or a lethal injection, or hang him - pretty much any method that's been legal in this country's history. It's better than what a lot of these sickos deserve, but you do justice while preserving your own, for lack of a better term, humanity.

As for the public bit, I could take it or leave it. I think hanging is the best way to go for public executions. We handled that pretty well, I think. Just don't drag it out, and make it clear in the "pre-game show" that this person was proven to be real scum who deserved to die. And I know some people will take offense to that term, but too bad. Yes, the person could potentially get saved and not really be "scum" anymore, but if so, why not do a brother a favor and send him to the loving arms of his Savior. Nothing more loving you could do for him than that.

 

[Sketcher]

Just saying-inmates on death row cost us more then life imprisonment...

Costs of the Death Penalty | Death Penalty Information Center

I think people on both sides of the issue can agree that needs to be addressed.

 

[Sketcher]

How is it not socialized? The cost is created by the criminal when he damages his victim. The state in its capacity of dispute resolution monopolist imposes its own costs. And then who pays? You and everyone else within the tax jurisdiction of the state, who are forced to pay through taxation and inflation the costs of the criminal procedure. That is state socialism - the forceful imposition of a financial liability upon uninvolved third parties by the government.

And one of the three functions of government according to Adam Smith. I'm fine with it.

 

[Markus6]

Yes, the person could potentially get saved and not really be "scum" anymore, but if so, why not do a brother a favor and send him to the loving arms of his Savior. Nothing more loving you could do for him than that.

Probably the same reason you haven't killed any of your other brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[Sketcher]

Probably the same reason you haven't killed any of your other brothers and sisters in Christ.

I'm not an executioner, who knew.

The way I see it, it's a win-win situation, executing criminals whether they've converted or not. If you execute him and he hasn't converted, he gets what he deserves. If you execute him and he has converted, you send him home to the Savior. If you free him and he really did convert and change, you get someone with a great testimony. If you free him and he was faking it, you've let a monster out to rape and kill again.

Furthermore, I really believe that a well-timed execution can be helpful in bringing the condemned to Christ. If you're going to die in 30-40 years, yeah, whatever. If you know you will die in a year, there's a sense of urgency all of a sudden to make peace with whoever is on the other side of death.