Can't accept Christianity

[razzelflabben]

I personally as well as others I know, have known that God does exist, and what amazes me is why so many people are so afraid to find out who is right on the issue of His existance.

 

[razzelflabben]

Those are things I thought I was promised before, but I only found pain instead when I sought God. Doesn't it make sense that I'd be afraid to open myself up again?

I would be worried if you weren't afraid, but that is exactly the point. God is love and perfect love casts out all fear, therefore, according to scripture, you couldn't have known the real God, only image you thought God was....

 

[genXer]

I personally as well as others I know, have known that God does exist, and what amazes me is why so many people are so afraid to find out who is right on the issue of His existance.

And what gets me, to go further, is why so many non-believers feel the need to try to disprove "something" they deem as "non-existant".

 

[razzelflabben]

And what gets me, to go further, is why so many non-believers feel the need to try to disprove "something" they deem as "non-existant".

What confuses me is why the nonbeliever would think it important to proclaim God does not exist, on a thread for Christians...by definition, wouldn't a christian be someone who believes that there is a deity, not someone who doesn't believe in one?

 

[Catherineanne]

Turning this logic around, the church definitely does exist, and is not at all imaginary, therefore there ought to be nothing whatever to prevent you or anyone else from going to church. I would not recommend it, however. It sounds as if your doubts are far too strong to survive for long in an encounter with that God you are so keen to assert does not exist.

Keep saying it often enough, and you may start to believe it. Meanwhile, you just keep on praying for a stronger non belief.

 

[genXer]

Turning this logic around, the church definitely does exist, and is not at all imaginary, therefore there ought to be nothing whatever to prevent you or anyone else from going to church. I would not recommend it, however. It sounds as if your doubts are far too strong to survive for long in an encounter with that God you are so keen to assert does not exist.

Keep saying it often enough, and you may start to believe it. Meanwhile, you just keep on praying for a stronger non belief.

Boy howdy! Quoted for truth.

 

[genXer]

I can list 10 non-Christian writers and authors that lived within 150 years of Jesus that wrote about Jesus and are considered HISTORICAL PRIMARY SOURCES for his existence and works. Of these 10 that wrote of Jesus only 9 of them wrote of the Ceaser of the time and nobody has ever questioned the historical purity of the Ceaser.

They are: Flavius Joseph, Cornelius Tactitus (Roman historian), Pliny the Younger (Roman historian & politician), Celsus (Roman philosopher), Lucan (Greek satirist), Phlegon (freed slave & historian), Thallus (1st century historian), Mara-Bar Serapion (Jew that mentions first hand witnessing detail of Jesus to his son in letters), Suetonius (Roman historian), The Jewish Talmud (important account as they did not acknowledge Christ).

Now, historically, if you piece together just these 10 you'll have record that:

• Jesus lived during the time of Tiberius Ceasar
• He was a "wonder-worker"
• He was acclaimed to be a Messiah
• He lived a virtuous life
• He had a brother named James
• He was crucified on the eve of Jewish Passover
• He was crucified under Pilate
• DARKNESS & EARTHQUAKE occurred in Jerusalem AT the time of his death
• His disciples denied Roman gods & Worshipped Jesus As GOD
• His disciples claimed he rose from the dead; he was witnessed in bodily form, alive, AFTER being put to death
• All of his disciples died for their belief in Jesus' ressurection
• Christianity spread rapidly, as far as Rome itself

All of this from non-Christian accounts!!! It is irrefutable and backs up the Holy Bible. Paul said if Christ was not resurrected then he wasted his life.

 

[BlessEwe]

Thread Clean Up
Some posts have been modified
​

 

[TheAcherMan]

Ok, so I'm getting the general advice that I should seek God but not rush things. I should find out who God is, but not necessarily open myself up to him. So to understand God, I thought I'd ask some questions about my previous experiences with him. I'd like to know what was going on.

A recap of what it was like:
I always had a picture of the man I wanted to be. I wanted to be strong, noble, honest, selfless, and caring with a solid relationship with God. But I often encountered a bad attitude inside me that would drag me away from these goals. When I wanted to be selfless, I found that deeper down I wanted everything to serve my comfort. Realizing this, I would petition God to send me his Spirit to live through me as a noble person. I begged him to allow me to love him and to love others. Sometimes I would be able to, but those times would disappear quickly. I hated being so depraved, but I couldn't change my attitude through willpower and God wouldn't change it for me. I spent hours pleading with God to destroy the evil in me that I loved too much. But he never did and I finally realized that the bad attitude within me was a more honest depiction of myself than the God-loving Christian I was trying to be. So I gave up and was, although missing a foundation for life, more stable than I was during the back and forth struggle.

So what was wrong with my relationship with God? Is it normal for it to always feel like a strain to love him? Is it normal to only have a few memories of actually appreciating what Christ did? Is it normal to often have a bad attitude that renders you uncaring, selfish, evil-loving, and God-hating? I'd like to know what it was I was struggling against. Was it sinful nature? Was it depression? Or was it that I never really became a christian and was frustrated by trying to live like one without a truly changed heart?

I don't see how I could have even been a Christian with that kind of evil thriving inside me. All I wanted was to be a helpful, productive, and loving Christian, but my heart was always in the gutter. Why would God allow that?

What does a healthy relationship with God look like? Maybe all I need is a good description of this. What does sin look like in the midst of it? Is there ever a deep inexplicable evil attitude that ruins things? All I have is my experience to go on.

I realize now that I don't really know what I'm trying to ask. I have so much confusion about my past and I don't know where to start clearing it up.

 

[razzelflabben]

Ok, so I'm getting the general advice that I should seek God but not rush things. I should find out who God is, but not necessarily open myself up to him. So to understand God, I thought I'd ask some questions about my previous experiences with him. I'd like to know what was going on.

A recap of what it was like:
I always had a picture of the man I wanted to be. I wanted to be strong, noble, honest, selfless, and caring with a solid relationship with God. But I often encountered a bad attitude inside me that would drag me away from these goals. When I wanted to be selfless, I found that deeper down I wanted everything to serve my comfort.

the bible tells us to crucify self, that we don't live for our own comforts anymore. So seems to me that is your first problem. Just a thought for what it's worth.

Realizing this, I would petition God to send me his Spirit to live through me as a noble person. I begged him to allow me to love him and to love others. Sometimes I would be able to, but those times would disappear quickly. I hated being so depraved, but I couldn't change my attitude through willpower and God wouldn't change it for me.

another thought for you, God doesn't force Himself upon us, even for "noble" causes. The HS can only work through the person who yeilds control to Him, not who presumes to know God's will.

I spent hours pleading with God to destroy the evil in me that I loved too much. But he never did and I finally realized that the bad attitude within me was a more honest depiction of myself than the God-loving Christian I was trying to be. So I gave up and was, although missing a foundation for life, more stable than I was during the back and forth struggle.

So what was wrong with my relationship with God? Is it normal for it to always feel like a strain to love him?

not sure about a strain, but there is a constant battle between the "old man" and the "new man" a battle that we take on daily until the two become as one, living in harmony, and even then, it is a daily thing. The bible says we work out our salvation daily....it also says that we should crucify ourselves, which is a painful process.

Is it normal to only have a few memories of actually appreciating what Christ did? Is it normal to often have a bad attitude that renders you uncaring, selfish, evil-loving, and God-hating?

I think there is no norm with God, so not sure how to answer this.

I'd like to know what it was I was struggling against. Was it sinful nature? Was it depression? Or was it that I never really became a christian and was frustrated by trying to live like one without a truly changed heart?

or maybe a part of all the above? I think those are only answers you and God can conclude for sure, anything we might off to those questions would be pure speculation in that we don't know the heart, only God does. Why not ask God to search your heart and tell you?

I don't see how I could have even been a Christian with that kind of evil thriving inside me. All I wanted was to be a helpful, productive, and loving Christian, but my heart was always in the gutter. Why would God allow that?

One thing I'm not sure from your post, that you need to understand is that just because you come to Christ, doesn't mean you suddenly stop being evil...consider David, he was very much a man of God but even in that did some very evil things. We do not suddenly become perfect.

What does a healthy relationship with God look like? Maybe all I need is a good description of this. What does sin look like in the midst of it? Is there ever a deep inexplicable evil attitude that ruins things? All I have is my experience to go on.

wow, interesting question....I'll answer the best I can based on how I understand your question, if I'm missing something, I apologize and ask for clarity so that I can address it.

I think the best way to describe a healthy relationship with God is to say that we need to seek God, through prayer, through attempts at Godliness, and also through yeilding ourselves to HIm, accepting Him as the authority of our lives, and the authority of all. Beyond that, I don't think there are really any rules. Consider this, what makes my husband and I work is not the same as what makes another couple work, there are some basics to a healthy marriage, like communication and commitment, but beyond those very basics, it's as individual as we are. Our relationship with God is the same, there are some basics, but beyond that it's individual. I just thought of something else that might help you understand the basics. The bible tells us that Christ is the bridegroom and we the Church (body of believers) is the Bride. So maybe looking at that relationship will help...what are the basics of a good marriage relationship...in fact, the mystery of our salvation is like the mystery of a marriage where the two become as one. The goal is to live in such a way as the two, you and God become as one.

I realize now that I don't really know what I'm trying to ask. I have so much confusion about my past and I don't know where to start clearing it up.

I don't know if anything so far has helped, but at least we can try to find answers together...

 

[TheAcherMan]

You say the HS works through those who yield to him. What about when you want to yield to him but your heart is too stubborn? I often felt like I needed the HS to help me yield to him. But you can see how that wouldn't work! I tried to yield to the HS many times, but either God didn't care or I was only fooling myself.

I know about the "old man" vs. "new man" conflict, but I'm not sure how to understand it. How do they conflict? What is it like? Are all struggles from the "old man?" I know a Christian doesn't stop being evil, but how does it balance with his Christianity? Does the Christian just suddenly lose the HS? To me, it often seemed like an awkward thing to sin. I rarely felt truly sorry and was never really sure what to do with that failure. Although the Bible says God's already forgiven me, I would still take it as a sign of instability. But I'm thinking of individual sins instead of the "bad attitude" i was talking about. That always seemed too powerful and dominant to be the "old man." (i posted a new thread asking what others thought about this in the "General Struggles" forum). I guess I lack a good picture of what sin should be in a Christian's life. Without living someone else's life, how can I know?

In a marriage, there is a foundation of love for the commitment. How can I be successfully "married" to God if deep down I don't love him or if my love is more often off than on? And how can I be with someone who doesn't seem to talk back and who leaves me frustrated in the dark and hurts me?

 

[razzelflabben]

You say the HS works through those who yield to him. What about when you want to yield to him but your heart is too stubborn? I often felt like I needed the HS to help me yield to him. But you can see how that wouldn't work! I tried to yield to the HS many times, but either God didn't care or I was only fooling myself.

let me offer you this thought, love is patient....both the receiving and the giving. I you know/believe that Jesus is the Christ, then the rest is just a matter of patience. Yielding is a giving up, not a continual trying. Let me see, an analogy....in college, there are a lot of tests. Most kids stay up all night long studying for a hard test so that they will do well. But research shows that to do your best, you need to go to sleep, get a good nights rest. Sounds counterproductive, but it is the best way to do well on a test. Likewise with the HS within, when we stop fighting to do what is right, we end up doing what is right because it is the HS doing it, not we ourselves. Does that make sense?

I know about the "old man" vs. "new man" conflict, but I'm not sure how to understand it. How do they conflict? What is it like?

I am on my way to bed, but stopped by and decided to unwind a bit from the day, if you need me to look up the references I am about to refer you to, please feel free to ask me to do so tomorrow, I have no issue with doing so. Take a look in scripture under purpose. You can easily use the NIV or KJV. There is a verse in that list that talks about God's desire since the beginning, the purpose is for the physical man and the spiritual man to live in harmony, there is a war going on within you, the old man, aka the physical man and the spiritual man. When the two become reconciled one to the other through the power of the HS within, we find, and know peace. This sometimes takes a lot of work and time, other times it's instant. That is an individual thing. Personally I think it has a lot to do with pride, but that is opinion not biblical absolutes. Anyway, it looks a lot like convictions. Like in Paul's words, the things I want to do I don't and the things I don't want to do, I do. This is the struggle of the old man with the new.

Are all struggles from the "old man?"

no, but most are....lots of christians blame the devil for things that are the old mans, or even things that other men do. Most, though not all of our struggles are the old man.

I know a Christian doesn't stop being evil, but how does it balance with his Christianity?

the more a man learns to yield himself to the HS within, the less evil he becomes and the more Godly he finds that he is...personally I know lots of people who weren't even aware of the change until some time down the road. Just because you don't recognize the change, doesn't mean it isn't there. In a lot of cases, others around you notice it before you do.

Does the Christian just suddenly lose the HS?

honestly, as I understand scripture, anyone who "feels" the conviction of the Lord has the HS. It is the HS that calls us to repentance. You can push Him away, refuse Him, but if you are currently feeling conviction, He is there.

To me, it often seemed like an awkward thing to sin. I rarely felt truly sorry and was never really sure what to do with that failure. Although the Bible says God's already forgiven me, I would still take it as a sign of instability.

Like Paul, the things I want to do I don't and the things I don't want to do I do. It really is more about maturity in Christ than about not having the HS. Let's see, when you learned to ride a bike, was it easy right off the bat, or did you need to learn how to ride? Did it take time and effort and patience? The same is true with living in the Spirit. The spirit is there, but we don't know how to live in that spirit, we have spent so much time living in and for self, that we need to learn how to live in the Spirit.

But I'm thinking of individual sins instead of the "bad attitude" i was talking about. That always seemed too powerful and dominant to be the "old man." (i posted a new thread asking what others thought about this in the "General Struggles" forum). I guess I lack a good picture of what sin should be in a Christian's life. Without living someone else's life, how can I know?

because the HS tells you. Every answer you need, every answer you seek is available to you through the Spirit within. You need to be quiet and listen, you need to trust that Spirit, test it if you need to, the bible tells us to.

In a marriage, there is a foundation of love for the commitment. How can I be successfully "married" to God if deep down I don't love him or if my love is more often off than on?

In a marriage, there are lots of times we don't "feel" love, it's part of the territory and anyone who says otherwise is lieing to you. But many people are successfully married without ever knowing thier spouse before hand...think arranged marriages. Even if you came to Christ out of fear, you can choose to learn about Him, be commited to HIm, learn to love Him. You can take the time to find out who He is, and in so doing, find that there is something special about Him, just as you would in an arranged marriage. People have done it for centuries.

And how can I be with someone who doesn't seem to talk back and who leaves me frustrated in the dark and hurts me?

Well, what I usually tell people, is start by crying all the tears you can cry, speak all the words you can say, then sit quiet and listen. I got so angry with God once, that I really told Him off. But, He still loved me and does to this day. I have walked down some very dark and lonely paths, and I have cried from the fear, but when I looked back, I saw that things were not as dark as I thought they were. I often feel hurt by God, even know, my heart feels betrayed, but I have been here before as well, and I know that I was never hurt by God, only by others, and I learn to attribute to God what is God's and to man what is man's.

Now it is time for bed, and if you wish me to elaborate on anything say the word, I should have much more time tomorrow. Have an awesome evening.

 

[TheAcherMan]

Yielding is a giving up, not a continual trying

When I stopped trying to have the HS, I lost God altogether. When I stopped trying to be something different, I had no choice but to accept what I was: a Godless rebel. Not trying didn't bring me back to God; it showed me who I really am deep down. So doesn't that mean that I was only fooling myself the whole time by thinking that I wanted to love God?

 

[razzelflabben]

When I stopped trying to have the HS, I lost God altogether. When I stopped trying to be something different, I had no choice but to accept what I was: a Godless rebel. Not trying didn't bring me back to God; it showed me who I really am deep down. So doesn't that mean that I was only fooling myself the whole time by thinking that I wanted to love God?

the very nature of God(oops, typo, the very nature of man is to love God it should say, sorry) is to love God....it is also the nature of man to reject God. So, you have two conflicting natural responses, the question is which will your cling to?

Oh, and one more thing, it is also the nature of man to not understand what real love is. which makes the whole thing even more interesting.

 

[nhisname]

I was raised in a Christian home, accepted Jesus when I was 6 and led a Christian life with Christian fellowship since then. But in late high school things started to fall apart. While I should have had a faith that welled up from inside and which gave me peace, I found it a strain to love God or even give a crap about what he'd done. I finally decided that I couldn't force myself to love God and that I had to be honest with myself. I released my heart and it quickly fled far away from God. I wasn't happy, but I finally felt genuine and not suffocated.

Still, concerned for my eternal soul, I attended a Christian college for 2 years, but nothing changed. I can now "argue" on the side of the Christian or the atheist. To be honest, I probably argue for Christianity better and I find it hard to shake some of the beliefs. The main theological problems I have mainly revolve around sovereignty vs. free will and the seemingly never ending arguments around things like baptism. It really bugs me that Christians can't agree on so many things that seem to be big deals. Why didn't Jesus teach clearly?

In any case, my main situation is this: I know all there is to know about Christianity, or at least enough. I highly doubt someone could present to me a perspective I am not familiar with. Yet I cannot accept it. My heart wants nothing to do with God and I only think of him bitterly. I don't want to go back to where I was in high school because that relationship was too flimsy and fake, but I would like something to give me a sense of purpose and security in life. Right now I am terrified of death for fear of hell, but I just don't want God. If that's where my heart is, what can I do about it?

If you cannot believe or accept Jesus as savior why do you worry about hell?

 

[TheAcherMan]

If you cannot believe or accept Jesus as savior why do you worry about hell?

I worry about hell because I cannot seem to believe or accept Jesus. I can't argue strongly against the gospel and therefore cannot argue strongly that I won't go to hell because things don't work between me and God.

 

[razzelflabben]

I worry about hell because I cannot seem to believe or accept Jesus. I can't argue strongly against the gospel and therefore cannot argue strongly that I won't go to hell because things don't work between me and God.

But what does hell have to do with our relationship with God? I mean, do I love my kids because I'm afraid that the authorities might come and take me to jail if I don't love them? Or do I love them because they are my children and I find them of great value?
When we "try" to love God because we are afraid of hell, we are only loving ourselves, not loving God at all. Our relationship is all about what I can get, and not a mutual give and take. In a marriage, this kind of thing would doom the marriage.

 

[TheAcherMan]

Yes, I know a relationship of fear is not what I'm shooting for. In general, I seems that a lot of the answers I'm seeking have to grow from personal experience. I am someone who would so much rather have everything explained (what emotional experience to expect, how to handle sin, how to interact with others, etc.) instead of floundering around and trying to figure it out myself. To my personality, it's all very abstract and unsure, so even if I thought I found a truth myself to grasp onto, I would probably be too cautious to cling to it. In any case, I realize I need to starting doing something. So where should I start? How should I begin understanding and experiencing for myself? Should I read the Bible? Which part? that might not help because I would carry all the negative biases I have developed against God. Can i flush those biases out? How? Where do I start???

Another thing I wonder about is what to do about repentance. I realize now that I was almost never grateful to God for saving me from my sins. For most of my life, I ignored that (the gospel) and focused on the purpose and direction that Christianity gave me. Now when I ask myself the question, "do I need a savior?" I respond, "no! why are you trying to make me feel guilty? I don't want that Christ touching my sins and judging me." So obviously, my heart currently rejects the gospel and maybe always did. But if that's where my heart is, then it cannot sincerely ask God to change it. So how will I ever return to God if I can't even submit to him?

 

[razzelflabben]

Yes, I know a relationship of fear is not what I'm shooting for. In general, I seems that a lot of the answers I'm seeking have to grow from personal experience. I am someone who would so much rather have everything explained (what emotional experience to expect, how to handle sin, how to interact with others, etc.) instead of floundering around and trying to figure it out myself.

that is where the HS comes in, the HS has those answers for you, on a personal, intimate level...Just as my husband has answers for me that you could never begin to know.

To my personality, it's all very abstract and unsure, so even if I thought I found a truth myself to grasp onto, I would probably be too cautious to cling to it.

that is more common than you think

In any case, I realize I need to starting doing something. So where should I start? How should I begin understanding and experiencing for myself? Should I read the Bible? Which part? that might not help because I would carry all the negative biases I have developed against God. Can i flush those biases out? How? Where do I start???

again, that is not an absolute, but based on what you have said so far, I would suggest searching out who God is and what He wants for you. Do you have a concordance? Do you know how to study the word? Do you have a study bible? I would start with what you have said, studying two aspects of God, His purpose for mankind, and His love....I have a study guide for Love, I can email it, but it is pretty long, for forum or PM, or you can look it up yourself....Also, start by looking up purpose in the concordance and find out what God's purpose for man and with man is and has been from the beginning. These two things, give us a good beginning understanding into the very nature of God and who He is. It's not about reading the bible, it's about finding the things in the bible you missed before....Look at it more as a "where's Waldo" exploration. In fact, the bible tells us, It is the glory of God to conceal a matter and the honor of kings to search it out....don't look for the God you have been seeing, but rather the God you have been missing. I would also suggest, asking God to direct you and open your eyes. I'll be praying too.

Another thing I wonder about is what to do about repentance. I realize now that I was almost never grateful to God for saving me from my sins. For most of my life, I ignored that (the gospel) and focused on the purpose and direction that Christianity gave me. Now when I ask myself the question, "do I need a savior?" I respond, "no! why are you trying to make me feel guilty? I don't want that Christ touching my sins and judging me." So obviously, my heart currently rejects the gospel and maybe always did. But if that's where my heart is, then it cannot sincerely ask God to change it. So how will I ever return to God if I can't even submit to him?

Don't jump ahead of yourself. Repentance is from the heart, it's a turning around, and going the other way, you can't force yourself into it, but you can create a situation where you desire it. Where you want to be what God created you to be. Relax, and look for God first, the rest will follow.

 

[nhisname]

I worry about hell because I cannot seem to believe or accept Jesus. I can't argue strongly against the gospel and therefore cannot argue strongly that I won't go to hell because things don't work between me and God.

No one comes to Christ knowing everything there is to know about God and his word. It is a life long journey. Start all over again with Christ pray to the Father and tell him what you've told us here. Get in the word and study. Satan is a liar and deceiver and loves it when a Christian falls away from the faith. He keeps hammerings at his weaknesses. Ask God to renew your mind and to protect your thoughts, especially when you pray. We fight against things we cannot see but God is there to protect us. God Bless you and hopefully you'll come back to the flock Prodical son!