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I meant the ones of the early Councils such as this one:If I recall correctly, Martin Luther was all for getting rid of the books of Revelation, James and I think a few others.
Good catch. I believe the councils of Rome, Hippo and Carthage which were held shortly after Laodicea included the Canon we see today in our NT and so it includes the Apocolypse of John.I meant the ones of the early Councils such as this one:
1. The Council of Laodicea (A.D. 363) - this particular council accepted all of the books of the New Testament except the Book of Revelation.
That is why I have said that Book of the Bible has caused more division within Christianity than any other.Good catch. I believe the councils of Rome, Hippo and Carthage which were held shortly after Laodicea included the Canon we see today in our NT and so it includes the Apocolypse of John.
Oh. I read that Zwingli also excluded Revelation from his canon.
I wouldn't say the inspired writing (Revelation) itself causes division. It is more of a people problem and some people will not accept the fact the Church determined -- through the guidance of the Holy Spirit -- the canon of Scripture. The same Church has also preserved those sacred writings from error and saved them from destruction throughout the centuries.That is why I have said that Book of the Bible has caused more division within Christianity than any other.
Notice how RCs and non-RCs differ on the intpretations of that book.
If I didn't think it was inspired I wouldn't have spent almost 2 yrs translating it from the greek texts......
http://www.bible.ca/b-canon-church-did-not-give-world-bible.htm
Refutation of James Bernstein (Orthodox):
- First Bernstein says it was the church, not the councils that set the canon, then two pages later he says the church determined the canon. Yet Bernstein tries to prove his point by telling us the canon was determined by the Council of Laodicea A.D 363 and third Council of Carthage in A.D 397. Obviously then Bernstein contradicts himself. First he says it was not the councils, then he refers to two church councils to prove the church had the authority to set the canon.
- Bernstein is walking on eggshells by referring to the Council of Laodicea A.D 363 and third Council of Carthage in A.D 397, because he knows the first council accepted only 26 books and rejected the book of Revelation, while the second council accepted all 27 books including revelation. We would ask the obvious question: What good is the "authority of the church" if it contradicts itself? One council rejects the book of Revelation the other council accepts revelation. Which "authority" was right?
- Obviously then, no church council set the canon, and it was not by "church authority" that the canon was set. Rather there was a common understood canon of 22 books that had never been questioned and widely distributed since 100 AD, along with 5 other books that were in full circulation since 100 AD, but questioned.
I got that site from a google search as I know very little about the early Councils or ECFs.I wouldn't say the inspired writing (Revelation) itself causes division. It is more of a people problem and some people will not accept the fact the Church determined -- through the guidance of the Holy Spirit -- the canon of Scripture. The same Church has also preserved those sacred writings from error and saved them from destruction throughout the centuries.
I found the names of the 4 "angels" in Chapt 40 interesting.The Book of Enoch was also very popular among Christians.
Matthew 5:17Way Before Constantine The early Christian Church fathers of the 1st and 2nd centuries A.D. did not consider the Sabbath day to be a day all Christians were obligated to observe. They gave a different testimony.
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians 8-10 (c. 110 A.D.)
"Do not be deceived by strange doctrines or antiquated myths, since they are worthless. For if we continue to live accordance with Judaism, we admit that we have not received grace. For the most godly prophets lived in accordance with Christ Jesus. This is why they were persecuted, being inspired as they were by His grace in order that those who are disobedient might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed Himself through Jesus Christ His Son, who is His Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased Him who sent Him. If, then, those who had lived in antiquated practices came to newness of hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath but living in accordance with the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through Him and His death (which some deny), the mystery through which we came to believe, and because of which we patiently endure, in order that we might be found to be disciples of Jesus Christ, our only teacher, how can we possibly live without Him, whom even the prophets, who were His disciples in the Spirit, were expecting as their teacher? Because of this He for whom they rightly waited raised them from the dead when He came. Therefore let us not be unaware of His goodness. For if He were to imitate the way we act, we are lost. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live in accordance with Christianity. For whoever is called by any other name than this one does not belong to God. Throw out, therefore, the bad leaven, which has become stale and sour, and reach for the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted with Him, so that none of you become rotten, for by your odor you will be examined. It is utterly absurd to profess Jesus Christ and to practice Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity, in which "every tongue" believed and "was brought together" to God." (10)
Epistle of Barnabas 2:4-6 (c. 130 A.D.)
"For He has made it clear to us through all the prophets that He needs neither sacrifices nor whole burnt offerings nor general offerings, saying on one occasion: 'What is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?' says the Lord. 'I am full of whole burnt offerings, and I do not want the fat of lambs and blood of bulls and goats, not even if you come to appear before Me. For who demanded these things from your hands? Do not continue to trample My court. If you bring fine flour, it is in vain; incense is detestable to Me; your new moons and sabbaths I cannot stand.' Therefore He has abolished these things, in order that the new law of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is free from the yoke of compulsion, might have its offering, one not made by man.
Epistle of Barnabas 15:8-9 (c. 130 A.D.)
"Finally, He says to them: 'I cannot bear your new moons and sabbaths.' You see what He means: it is not the present sabbaths that are acceptable to Me, but the one that I have made; on that Sabbath, after I have set everything at rest, I will create the beginning of an eighth day, which is the beginning of another world. This is why we spend the eighth day in celebration, the day on which Jesus both arose from the dead and, after appearing again, ascended into heaven." (11)
The Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius Pamphilus (c. 260-339 A.D.) is probably one of the most important works on early Church history available, covering the events of its first three centuries. As one born during the early Church period, Eusebius was an able historian who had a close view of the events that helped shape the historical and theological developments of the early Church.
Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, Book 1, Chapter 5 (c. 315 A.D.)
"For as the name Christians is intended to indicate this very idea, that a man, by the knowledge and doctrine of Christ, is distinguished by modesty and justice, by patience and a virtuous fortitude, and by a profession of piety towards the one and only true and supreme God; all this no less studiously cultivated by them than by us. They did not, therefore, regard circumcision, nor observe the Sabbath, neither do we; neither do we abstain from certain foods, nor regard other injunctions, which Moses subsequently delivered to be observed in types and symbols, because such things as these do not belong to Christians." (13)
Justin Martyr (c. 100-165 A.D.) lived during the reign of Antonius Pius and suffered martyrdom in 165 A.D. during the reign of Marcus Aurelius. He was an enthusiastic evangelist of the Gospel, and after traveling widely throughout the Roman Empire settled in Rome as a Christian teacher. While there, neighboring philosophers plotted against him because of his Christian profession, brought him up before the Roman authorities, who carried out his execution by beheading him.
The First Apology of Justin, Chapter 67
"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things ... But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead." (17)
Some Christians would say that these epistles and statements are unreliable and reflect a general apostasy that was going on in the Church at the time. But this is the Church of which Christ said "the gates of Hades shall not overpower it." Also, the men who wrote letters such as these to the early Christians were the type of people of whom were spoken in Hebrews 11.
Hebrews 11:35-40.
Many early Church leaders and followers of Christ such as Ignatius, Polycarp and Justin Martyr, to name a few, suffered severe persecution and eventual martyrdom at the hands of the Romans for spreading the Gospel of Christ. But to keep to the main point, Sabbath-keeping was not a requirement in those days for all Christians, nor was it generally observed. And this was going on long before Constantine the Great enacted his civil Sunday law.
I found the names of the 4 "angels" in Chapt 40 interesting.
The name "Phanuel" is in the Bible, the father of Anna [Luke 2:36] and a place named by Jacob in Gene 32. Like I have said before, I read thru that book 1 time about 4 yrs ago, but before I would read it again, I would want to tranlslate it first.
Other than that, I will stick to the book of Revelation for now as that is tough enuf to harmonize with the rest of the OC and NC of the bible
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/book_of_enoch.htm
The Bible never mentions an angel named Phanuel, let alone an angel who is set over the repentance of those who inherit eternal life.
Chapt 40:9 seen and whose words I have heard and written down? And he said to me: This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.
10 And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days
Luke 2:36 And there was Anna, a prophetess, daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher, she was much advanced in days, having lived with an husband seven years from her virginity,
5323 Phanouel {fan-oo-ale'} of Hebrew origin 06439;; n pr m
AV - Phanuel 1; 1
Phanuel = "the face of God"
6439 Pnuw'el pen-oo-ale' or (more properly,) Pniylel {pen-oo-ale'}; from 6437 and 410; face of God; Penuel or Peniel, a place East of Jordan; also (as Penuel) the name of two Israelites:--Peniel, Penuel.
Genesis 32:30 And Jacob calleth the name of the place Peniel: for `I have seen God face unto face, and my life is delivered;'
Genesis 32:31 And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh.
Judges 8:8 And he went up thence to Penuel, and spake unto them likewise: and the men of Penuel answered him as the men of Succoth had answered him.
Judges 8:9 And he spake also unto the men of Penuel, saying, When I come again in peace, I will break down this tower.
Judges 8:17 And he beat down the tower of Penuel, and slew the men of the city.
1Kings 12:25 Then Jeroboam built Shechem in mount Ephraim, and dwelt therein; and went out from thence, and built Penuel.
1Chronicles 4:4 And Penuel the father of Gedor and Ezer the father of Hushah. These are the sons of Hur, the firstborn of Ephratah, the father of Bethlehem.
1Chronicles 8:25 And Iphedeiah, and Penuel, the sons of Shashak;
How did this thread go from the canon of scripture to Sunday/Sabbath?
Frankly I think this is just MtA's attempt to validate Arian and Judaec "Christian" beliefs.
This Council is not one of the Ecumenical Councils (7 are called Ecumenical by the EO).
Non-ecumenical Councils may either have been rejected, or were local (responding to a local or regional but not general problem). Canons iterated therein are not always applied, but are (at least for a time) in response to a local problem that threatens to divide the Church.
The emperor (here named as Constantine) may call a Council but does not decide a council.
As this Council is neither the work of the emperor named, nor is it ecumenical, I am unsure how the conclusion is made that has been suggested ...
Michael "Thee" Archangel does not realize how very Roman Catholic he is in his thinking. To begin with, he, like many (not all) died-in-wool Roman Catholics accept by faith that the Roman Catholic Church existed during the time of Constantine the Great; it did not, so that is an item of faith Michael "Thee" Archangel shares with many (not all) Roman Catholics. I'd not be surprised if Michael "Thee" Archangel also believes the Roman Catholic Church existed further back than that.
.
Heads of church could indeed call for a council, as did Constantine. Not only did Constantine the great proclaim himself head of the Christian Church, but he was also the Pagan High priest at the same time. He was Pontifix Maximus, a title for a Pagan High Priest; he keep that title until the day he died.
The Papacy claims to have authority to change scripture in any way they think fit.
I couldn't find anything but I found this interesting.Yes, I stated the emperor could call a council.
I said he did not decide the outcome/decisions of the council.
Also, the Council you refer to is not considered "Ecumenical" (ie is a regional Council.)
Could you provide primary source documentation (extant edict, decree, pronouncement) where Constantine identifies himself as the head of the Church ? I've not run across any, and perhaps your source cites it.
You can read St. Irenaeus' Against Heresies (ca 170 AD) in which he expounded on apostolic succession, with "pre-eminent authority" at Rome. In other words, he pointed out that only the Catholic Church had valid apostolic succession. -snip-
The Mark 16:9-20 is a late addition. So how can a person know if a certain word or scripture does not belong? well think of these words: Thou shall not put the Lord thy God to the test. Or this: Matthew 7:22Mark 16:9-20 was it added or not.
Without going into specifics, that ending confirms X. So, yes it is original IMO.
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