Cannot Be A Christian If...

Davy · Apr 11, 2021

ViaCrucis said:
What, exactly, is a picture of the Kremlin supposed to say here? I show a picture of a gigantic mansion owned by one of the wealthiest families in the world, and you show a picture of the Kremlin?

Okay, here's the Whitehouse:

There was no point in posting a picture of it, but neither was there any point in you posting a picture of the Kremlin.

If you want to point out the evils of the USSR, you'll get no argument from me. The Stalinist regime was evil. But the evils of Stalinism don't justify the evils of Capitalism.

Just so we're clear, I'm not a Communist, nor a Marxist. I don't have enough faith in human beings behaving themselves well enough for a true implementation of Marxist ideas to work. Marx desired the dissolution of the State, envisioning a Communist utopia where the workers owned the means of production and all things were shared equally. I think much of that is a noble ideal, but also unrealistic.

The evidence for how unrealistic it is can be seen wherever anyone has tried to implement some form of Marxist society, such as with the Bolsheviks.

You can't quench ambition, you can't quench human selfishness, and the thirst for power. There will always be at least some people who want more, to be on top, to have power. And those people will find power if given the opportunity. Where a power vacuum opens, there will be those who will come to fill it.

But to pretend as though Capitalism is any better morally is simply sticking one's head in the sand. The fruits of Capitalism are all around us, as the poor get poorer, the rich get richer, and the least of these suffer under the heavy heel of the wealthy and the powerful.

The Christian should desire what is best for their neighbor, and thus seek what is good and just for our societies and communities. And therefore we should promote justice, love mercy, and walk humbly before our God (Micah 6:8); and that means being on the side of the poor, the hungry, and the oppressed wherever they are.

On that basis, we have seen time and again the failures of Capitalism, the failed attempts at Communism, and the utter inhuman nightmare of Fascism. All within the last century and a half.

So maybe rather than cheerleading such failed economic models as though any of them have been great is a problem. Especially Fascism, that was just in every way the worst of all worlds. So let's set our pom poms down, use our hearts and minds and conscience to prioritize that which we should prioritize in accordance with God's will: That we love our neighbor and seek what is maximally good for him.

-CryptoLutheran

Kind of amazing how so much hatred against the system of free enterprise you expound while promoting your Faith as a Lutheran.

When I joined the U.S. military during the Vietnam War, I took an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of The United States of America, which is also the oath all U.S. public servants must take, including the police.

That U.S. Constitution supports Christian values from God's Word.

So if you want to mock hypocrites working under the guise of following that Constitution, fine, but don't mock the country, nor that Constitution, nor We The People whom it represents. A Communist won't limit themselves with mockery of the hypocrites, they will also mock that U.S. Constitution (because they want to destroy it), and also the people who 'still' support it (like me, like many good U.S. government leaders, and like many good still existing U.S. military leaders).

Davy · Apr 11, 2021

Dave L said:
Christian Communism says "what's mine is yours". Worldly Communism says "what's yours is mine". Abraham Kuyper.

"Christian Communism"??? That's funny!!! There is no such thing.

Communism is just a tool used by the wealthy elite globalists, i.e., those who seek to rule the world, those who don't really have a country, because money is their country.

Davy · Apr 11, 2021

ViaCrucis said:
So your argument is that the evils of Communism should be attributed to Capitalists? I'm not sure that's the argument you were trying to make, but that is the argument you've just made.

-CryptoLutheran

You just made a silly false assumption without any basis of what I said at all. It's easy to tell so far you like making stuff up, like in your previous posts, which reveal hints of hatred towards the United States of America.

I realize not all people living in the United States are true Americans who love its Christian history of its original founders, and the U.S. Constitution they gave U.S. citizens. Some people here in the U.S. that came from other countries are not interested in becoming real Americans, but are still latched to their old country's beliefs and ways, which some is that is vehemently against... the U.S. Constitution. That's why there is a Communist Party USA that also exists here in the U.S. who receives direction from Moscow, and not Washington, D.C.

Rachel20 · Apr 11, 2021

Davy said:
Communism is just a tool used by the wealthy elite globalists, i.e., those who seek to rule the world, those who don't really have a country, because money is their country.

The same ones who tell us we'll own nothing and we'll be happy!!! FYI I think they only recently decided the NWO would be liberal (socialist) as Biden was the first I heard attach that to the phrase "New World Order". Both parties spoke of it openly before, since Bush Sr, but none took this step. I think they chose it because nationalism, capitalism, etc... lean more individualist and the NWO requires collectivism.

ViaCrucis · Apr 11, 2021

Davy said:
Kind of amazing how so much hatred against the system of free enterprise you expound while promoting your Faith as a Lutheran.

I don't recall saying I have any hatred of free enterprise. But why should my Christian faith as a Lutheran be an impediment to my criticism of Capitalism? I am bound to Christ and His Gospel, not to manmade systems.

When I joined the U.S. military during the Vietnam War, I took an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of The United States of America, which is also the oath all U.S. public servants must take, including the police.

That U.S. Constitution supports Christian values from God's Word.

So if you want to mock hypocrites working under the guise of following that Constitution, fine, but don't mock the country, nor that Constitution, nor We The People whom it represents. A Communist won't limit themselves with mockery of the hypocrites, they will also mock that U.S. Constitution (because they want to destroy it), and also the people who 'still' support it (like me, like many good U.S. government leaders, and like many good still existing U.S. military leaders).

Thank you for your service.

I haven't mocked the United States nor its constitution. But I am under no obligation to blind loyalty to this or any other nation. My King is Jesus Christ, and my loyalty is to His kingdom.

As a Christian in the Lutheran tradition I believe in living out one's faith through their vocation; thus I am called to live my faith out in my vocation as a citizen of the United States. I do that not by blind loyalty and allegiance, but by seeking the good of my fellow countrymen, my neighbors. And part of that means being critical of what needs to be criticized.

I have no need for nationalistic pride, it neither benefits me nor my neighbor.

The US isn't a Christian nation, and its Constitution isn't a Christian constitution. They are manmade systems, and have no divine weight or authority. I like the US Constitution, I believe that the secular liberal republic with democratic values the Constitution promotes is, at least as an idea, a very good thing. As it keeps the State free from infringing on the rights of me or my neighbor; and upholds those rights for all--thus establishing order and lawfulness and public good.

Much of my criticisms I could dole out would be in the ways that the US has failed in the execution of those ideals. From slavery, to the genocide of the indigenous nations, to Jim Crow, and to yes, Capitalism run amok.

It is for this reason that I do support and promote equality, and equity; and in the just treatment of all people under civil law. That the role of society is for the common good of all its members, not just the few. And so those are the things I promote in my vocation as citizen, in particular through the democratic process of voting.

-CryptoLutheran

Albion · Apr 11, 2021

ViaCrucis said:
The fact that you think Great Britain was the first nation to become Christian, at a time when there was no such thing as Great Britain, and then go on to lambast false revisionist history tells me that you probably don't know much about history.

The first nation to convert to Christianity was Armenia by the way.

-CryptoLutheran

No. Britain (not the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland obviously ) does have a claim to being first, but what is the requirement--the entire land? every last person? Obviously, it's a matter of opinion and the way the claim is worded also.

Dave L · Apr 11, 2021

Davy said:
"Christian Communism"??? That's funny!!! There is no such thing.

Communism is just a tool used by the wealthy elite globalists, i.e., those who seek to rule the world, those who don't really have a country, because money is their country.

“And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.” Acts 2:42–45 (KJV 1900)

Davy · Apr 11, 2021

Tigger45 said:
US minimum wage + skyrocketing housing costs =

That situation is just a tip of the iceberg of what the globalist elites have been up to for centuries in the West.

Like Ben Franklin said, death and taxes are certain, but prior to 1913 U.S. citizens did not pay income tax. Citizens paid other taxes, but not on their personal income. In 1862 there was an income tax law instituted, but was later repealed in 1872. The Federal government tried to pass a tax on income again in 1894, however, the U.S. Supreme Court found the tax unconstitutional in 1895 because of language in the U.S. Constitution. So the bankers had the U.S. Constitution changed with the 16th Amendment in 1913, and also imposing their own language for the Federal Reserve Act they developed in secret at the Jekyll Island resort in Georgia.

The gloablist banker's plans all along was to be able to create money out of thin air, not backed by anything. In 1971, under the Nixon administration, the U.S. completely left the gold standard backing of the U.S. dollar.

Alan Greenspan Quotes About Gold | A-Z Quotes

Wall Street bankers got huge bailouts from the 2008 mortgage bubble crisis, even giving some of their CEO's millions in bonuses. Nothing was said of all the wealth they got from trading the fake credit paper like it was AAA stock, but in reality was a credit instrument loaded with debt (i.e., new mortgage loans with no equity). Nothing was said about the institutions that said it was a good investment, like Harvard business school, Standard & Poors, and even Alan Greenspan, ex-chairman of the Federal Reserve (see the DVD Inside Job).

So the problem with today's finance system isn't the country, nor with many U.S. leaders, but with the banking systems that the U.S. founders were strongly against, because fiat money not backed by anything like it is today is not the only time U.S. bankers have tried to takeover the U.S. monetary system. The Federal Reserve Bank itself is a 'private' bank; it pays taxes. It is NOT a part of the U.S. Government system. It is run by globalist banking elites.

ViaCrucis · Apr 11, 2021

Albion said:
No. Britain (not the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland obviously ) does have a claim to being first, but what is the requirement--the entire land? every last person? Obviously, it's a matter of opinion and the way the claim is worded also.

What would make Britain have a better claim than any other region of occupied or contested territory?

That's the thing apparently I'm not understanding.

I have no trouble with the idea that Christianity was present in the British Isles from quite early on, but that's a very different thing to a nation accepting Christianity as its official religion. There was no "British nation" at the time, the island of Britain itself was ruled by a variety of Celtic tribal kingdoms, which the Romans continued to butt heads with.

So how could there be a Britain to officially adopt Christianity without such a Britain even existing until much later on? A British Church? Absolutely. But a British nation or state? Not so much.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Apr 11, 2021

Davy said:
The gloablist banker's

How to spot the antisemitic dog whistle.

-CryptoLutheran

Davy · Apr 11, 2021

Dave L said:
“And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.” Acts 2:42–45 (KJV 1900)

I've never seen nor heard of any Communist system doing that, so there's the evidence. All you are doing is listening to Communist propaganda, their trying to use early Christianity to make the gullible think there is such a thing as "Christian Communism". Communal living is NOT the same thing as Communism. That is why you will find poverty and starvation in the Communist systems who don't convert to some form of Capitalism, like many of today's Communist nations of today have been forced to do, or die.

Davy · Apr 11, 2021

ViaCrucis said:
How to spot the antisemitic dog whistle.

-CryptoLutheran

Are you a Communist??

I'm just curious, since you like to use 'their' propaganda and fabrication of falsehood tools on this topic.

ViaCrucis · Apr 11, 2021

Davy said:
Are you a Communist??

I'm just curious, since you like to use 'their' propaganda and fabrication of falsehood tools on this topic.

You'll note that earlier in this thread I explicitly said I wasn't a Communist and I don't think Communism works.

I'm not the one using political propaganda in this thread.

-CryptoLutheran

Davy · Apr 11, 2021

ViaCrucis said:
You'll note that earlier in this thread I explicitly said I wasn't a Communist and I don't think Communism works.

I'm not the one using political propaganda in this thread.

-CryptoLutheran

You can't call exposure of Marx's Manifesto planks which are against Christianity as "political propaganda". IF... you do, then it means you are not against Communism. And you cannot be for BOTH Christ and Communism which is atheistic. So make up your mind.

Davy · Apr 11, 2021

Rachel20 said:
The same ones who tell us we'll own nothing and we'll be happy!!! FYI I think they only recently decided the NWO would be liberal (socialist) as Biden was the first I heard attach that to the phrase "New World Order". Both parties spoke of it openly before, since Bush Sr, but none took this step. I think they chose it because nationalism, capitalism, etc... lean more individualist and the NWO requires collectivism.

There's a good book you might be interested in: New Lies For Old by the ex-KGB colonel Golitsyn who defected to the U.S. back in the 1960s. He wrote that work in 1984 and predicted that if the Russian Communists had reached the 3rd final phase of their 1958 long-range disinformation strategy against the West, they might consider taking the Berlin Wall down. He shows the plan is to join East and West under a one-world Socialist system, basically "one world government".

Sketcher · Apr 11, 2021

These two actually are good arguments from a Biblical perspective:

Davy said:
1. abolition of private property - God's Word establishes the idea of private property. Alms is also Biblical, which is the donating of private property to those in need. Communism has never fulfilled their idea of the abolition of private property, because they simply seize the property of others for use by the ruling class, the high leaders of the Communist Party, and do it in the name of abolition of private property. When only the ruling class has access to everything, then it's in reality just theft of the people.

Davy said:
7. extension of factories and farms in the hands of the state - in Stalinist Russia, people that had worked farms for generations were moved to the cities to work at factories while other peoples (non-farm workers) were used to replace them in a collective. Many starved because of this. The government took over ownership of the farms, as the abolition of private property means seizing all private property by the government. And they decide how it's to be distributed. God's Word says in His future Kingdom we will plant vineyards and build houses, and we won't labor and another take it away or inhabit, that we will enjoy the fruit of our labor (Isaiah 65:21-23).

This one kind of is, inheritance is spoken of positively in the OT, but this one really needs to be better articulated from a Biblical standpoint (as in, where in Scripture does it support inheritance rights, and with the NT's focus on life in Heaven rather than earthly accumulation, should inheritance rights remain?):

Davy said:
3. abolition of rights of inheritance - this basically is the idea of abolishing one's birthright from their parents. There can't be generations of inheriting land under a Communist system. This platform by Marx was part of his theory of the abolition of private property.

I can agree with most of the rest for political, rather than Biblical reasons. To say that these are wrong for Biblical reasons are problematic, especially these two since they appear to have specific Biblical counterpoints:

Davy said:
2. a progressive graduated income tax - before 1913, the United States had no tax on personal income. That actually is a Communist philosophy from Marx's manifesto. By this method the wealth of the people is re-distributed, which is an attack on property rights. God's Word stands as a protector of property rights. It's a God-given right, not a right only the state can give.

Romans 13:1-7 tells us that taxes are permissible by God. It doesn't go into detail of how people should be taxed, or how much they should be taxed, but it does say that the government may tax the people. Scripture otherwise upholds the concept of private property.

Davy said:
8. Equal obligation for all to work - no lines drawn between the work done by men and women, eliminating roles of traditional Christian society per God's Plan. The idea is for the woman to leave the home and go to work in the factory, helping to establish the breaking up of the family unit, which family is a very Biblical principle.

The Bible really doesn't do that either with the exception of positions of church leadership in the NT and priests and IIRC, Levites in the OT. Communism is anti-family and the Bible is pro-family, but the Proverbs 31 woman in addition to being an able mother is also a working woman.

For the rest of these, it's harder to make a real Biblical determination since the Bible was written in times where the state was commonly accepted to have much more legitimate power than contemporary libertarians will argue. These were times of kings and emperors, with legal customs and religious law but no Constitution.

Davy said:
4. confiscation of property by immigrants or rebels - just being an immigrant, or disagreeing with the Communist government creates the situation of their seizing their property. This is part of the abolition of private property idea also.

5. centralization of credit in control of the state - this is the National Bank idea, a state-controlled monopoly over a nation's economic system. In Communist countries the state controls the distribution and control of monetary wealth. In the U.S., a move towards this kind of system of control began with the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. The Federal Reserve has the ability to create inflation, recessions and depressions, thus controlling the wealth of the people, whereas only Congress is to have authority to regulate coin money, meaning the U.S. dollar backed by a gold standard. Centralization of credit in control by the banks is against the system of a gold standard, even as Allan Greenspan had said in 1966 before being chosen later as chairman of the Federal Reserve. President Andrew Jackson also fought the idea of the national bank charter the New York bankers wanted towards centralization of the control of wealth.

6. centralization of communication and transportation - government controlled communication laws, and transportation laws, which affect people's ability to conduct free enterprise, which is God's way. In Communist countries, this is strictly controlled like in a Nazi type atmosphere.

9. combination of agriculture and manufacturing in the hands of the state - the plan for a gradual elimination of divisions between town and country. Since Marx's goal was the elimination of private property, it also means the abolition of individual ownership applied to living and working spaces.

10. free education by government controlled institutions; combination of education with industrial education - this is how The Bible was taken out of the schools. There is nothing written in the U.S. Constitution that says one cannot teach Bible in a school. And with schools controlled only by the state, they can determine what is taught to your children, like idiotic systems such as Common Core. At present in the U.S., only the public school systems are under these state controls, the private schools are not, there are still many Christian Bible teaching private schools. The establishing of the U.S. Department of Education was a move towards Marx's totalitarian controlled public school system.

Now, I disagree with the way that socialists like to implement these, but there really isn't a Biblical case for or against any of them as stated.

Sketcher · Apr 11, 2021

Tigger45 said:
US minimum wage + skyrocketing housing costs =

View attachment 297594 View attachment 297595 View attachment 297596

And people in some Communist countries would be impressed that they have cars.

Tigger45 · Apr 11, 2021

Sketcher said:
And people in some Communist countries would be impressed that they have cars.

Pure lack of compassion and resolve for the completely unnecessary plight of fellow Americans. Crony capitalism is only possible due to the apathetic nature of those who already have their needs met.

All Glory To God · Apr 11, 2021

Davy said:
A Communist cannot be a 'true' Christian, for those philosophies are antichrist.

Biblical institutions Karl Marx's ideas are against...

1. abolition of private property - God's Word establishes the idea of private property. Alms is also Biblical, which is the donating of private property to those in need. Communism has never fulfilled their idea of the abolition of private property, because they simply seize the property of others for use by the ruling class, the high leaders of the Communist Party, and do it in the name of abolition of private property. When only the ruling class has access to everything, then it's in reality just theft of the people.

2. a progressive graduated income tax - before 1913, the United States had no tax on personal income. That actually is a Communist philosophy from Marx's manifesto. By this method the wealth of the people is re-distributed, which is an attack on property rights. God's Word stands as a protector of property rights. It's a God-given right, not a right only the state can give.

3. abolition of rights of inheritance - this basically is the idea of abolishing one's birthright from their parents. There can't be generations of inheriting land under a Communist system. This platform by Marx was part of his theory of the abolition of private property.

4. confiscation of property by immigrants or rebels - just being an immigrant, or disagreeing with the Communist government creates the situation of their seizing their property. This is part of the abolition of private property idea also.

5. centralization of credit in control of the state - this is the National Bank idea, a state-controlled monopoly over a nation's economic system. In Communist countries the state controls the distribution and control of monetary wealth. In the U.S., a move towards this kind of system of control began with the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. The Federal Reserve has the ability to create inflation, recessions and depressions, thus controlling the wealth of the people, whereas only Congress is to have authority to regulate coin money, meaning the U.S. dollar backed by a gold standard. Centralization of credit in control by the banks is against the system of a gold standard, even as Allan Greenspan had said in 1966 before being chosen later as chairman of the Federal Reserve. President Andrew Jackson also fought the idea of the national bank charter the New York bankers wanted towards centralization of the control of wealth.

6. centralization of communication and transportation - government controlled communication laws, and transportation laws, which affect people's ability to conduct free enterprise, which is God's way. In Communist countries, this is strictly controlled like in a Nazi type atmosphere.

7. extension of factories and farms in the hands of the state - in Stalinist Russia, people that had worked farms for generations were moved to the cities to work at factories while other peoples (non-farm workers) were used to replace them in a collective. Many starved because of this. The government took over ownership of the farms, as the abolition of private property means seizing all private property by the government. And they decide how it's to be distributed. God's Word says in His future Kingdom we will plant vineyards and build houses, and we won't labor and another take it away or inhabit, that we will enjoy the fruit of our labor (Isaiah 65:21-23).

8. Equal obligation for all to work - no lines drawn between the work done by men and women, eliminating roles of traditional Christian society per God's Plan. The idea is for the woman to leave the home and go to work in the factory, helping to establish the breaking up of the family unit, which family is a very Biblical principle.

9. combination of agriculture and manufacturing in the hands of the state - the plan for a gradual elimination of divisions between town and country. Since Marx's goal was the elimination of private property, it also means the abolition of individual ownership applied to living and working spaces.

10. free education by government controlled institutions; combination of education with industrial education - this is how The Bible was taken out of the schools. There is nothing written in the U.S. Constitution that says one cannot teach Bible in a school. And with schools controlled only by the state, they can determine what is taught to your children, like idiotic systems such as Common Core. At present in the U.S., only the public school systems are under these state controls, the private schools are not, there are still many Christian Bible teaching private schools. The establishing of the U.S. Department of Education was a move towards Marx's totalitarian controlled public school system.

I agree with a lot of this, and will add some of my views.

First, I think someone cannot be a Christian and a communist/socialist at the same time. Not a 'true' christian, I just simply don't think it's possible to be saved and hold to those kinds of ideas. They need to repent of that, or suffer the eternal consequences.

The views of communism are so outrageously anti-christian because the designers and the propagators deny Gods design of male and female. They have done this by pushing the transgender propaganda, trying to liquidate the male female template.

They deny nations and borders, so the world can be turned into one global plantation for communists to govern with no option of alternative views available. And we as Christians should know that the purpose of these communists making a one world government is really setting the stage for the anti-Christ to manifest, and the great tribulation begins.

They deny Gods design of the family unit of mother and father. This has lead to children being raised in the abnormal and sinful situation of gay or lesbian people.

And they ultimately deny god with their desire for an all powerful government. If gods law and mans law are in conflict a christian would be on the creators side, the unsaved communist will undoubtedly be on Caesars side.

Much more I could say but I'll stop here. Any references for my political points can be found in the communist manifesto.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Apr 11, 2021

ViaCrucis said:
Next do a thread that addresses how one can't be a Christian if they are a Capitalist.

-CryptoLutheran

What are we talking about when we're talking about Capitalists? Someone whose a successful entrepreneur? A good worker who is skilled as his profession? There's nothing inherently unchristian about that.

The problem with communism is that it has tied itself historically to the destruction of religion and the propagation of State atheism. Be it Soviet Union or PRC and others. Communism in it's efforts to do away with all class distinctions doesn't blend particularly well within Christianity either since only the most radical interpretations of Christianity ever advocated something similar and they were usually radicals.

Treating the two as if they were equal is a bit of a stretch. Capitalism like any human system has flaws, but Communism is far worse and no Christian can really believe it.

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