Can You Move if Your slain in the spirit

[SpiritPsalmist]

Quaffer, the ones that fall down and don't change - we always called them "courtesy falls"!

Yea, we did too. I learned though that we can't always dismiss these as worthless . . .God looks at the heart and He knows who is coming with a searching heart. I saw a child come forward once and when the Pastor went to lay hands on him he just promptly layed down. We all had a good chuckle and then the Pastor layed hands on him and prayed a very simple prayer for the Lord to just touch his heart...that child layed there for a very long time, not moving a muscle, just being touched by the Lord.

God promises to meet the searching heart, no matter how immature it may be.

 

[d0c markus]

JimB's 'does it matter?' question raises an interesting issue. The danger of answering the OP with a yes or no answer can potentially further confuse people of whether they were 'genuinely' slain in the spirit, or from peer pressure to fall down (because somehow it is more 'spiritual' for you to fall down, especially when 90% of the church has fallen down!).

I've noticed (and I'm sure others have also, but were ever too polite to raise) some people always fall down, regardless of the length of time they were prayed for or laid hands on. While others 'never' fall down. So if we are to answer - on a subject that is highly subjective and personal nature - whether we ought be able to move or not, it raises yet another question: if I don't fall down, then does it mean I didn't get touched/filled/ministered by the Holy Spirit? So that can be even more embarrassing if we based it on whether you could move or not move, or whether you fell down or not, cause others in the pew or the ushers might think, 'hey, that guy's not spiritual or he's got some sin hanging', otherwise he'd be doing 'carpet time.' I don't think the Holy Spirit will embarass us that way.

I have friends who I deem 'more spiritual' than me who never fall down. And I know others who are marginally spiritual to always fall down. So I think JimB has a valid point, 'Does it matter?'

Another issue, and perhaps not the intended subject of this thread, but maybe others can comment, what's the purpose of being 'slain in the spirit' in the first place? My short answer is, if it doesn't produce fruit in your life, then it was pointless and perhaps not genuine?

To true. I'm not to sure I believe being slain in the spirit is genuine, I was in chapel a while back and this happened and people could move. Looked bogus but i've never experianced it, im still praying for wisdom on it.

 

[Andry]

Those are very valid points andry. In the circumstances I described previously, I was one who went up for prayer week after week after week and never did carpet time. I began to feel some of the insecurities you described and wondered what was wrong with me. However, during my daily routine at work I began to notice my co-workers looking at me odly. Like they were seeing something but did not quite know what it was. One day, someone just came out and asked, "what's happend to you that you are so happy?" Another person said, "are you in love?" I was not quite sure of how to answer them. . .they were mostly Baptist people and would not have understood. I did finely say, "yes, I've fallen in love with Jesus".

It was becoming evident that while I, at that point had not done carpet time, there were some very deep things going on in my heart. My Pastor use to say, "you can lay on the floor all night long but if when you get up you're still mean as a junk yard dog, then you are not changed". I had some bad habits that just fell away. Deep emotional hurts were being healed. Depression left.

To me this "carpet time", whether it's standing or laying, is all about change. He does not change so I must. In my opinion, I believe that when God puts someone out, God is viewing it as a time of surgery. So, whether you are able to move or not, it is best to not be in such a hurry to get up. It is best just to lay there and let Him do what He needs to do.

Quaffer, thank you for sharing your experience. It also takes genuine courage for you to say, at least openly, that you love Jesus in the workplace.

My personal experience of being slain in the spirit was many many years ago as an obnoxious teen - who was wiser than the pastor! - and the teen group was asked to come up for prayer. I thought, sure, it's just prayer. Next thing I know after one of the elders prayed for me, I was staring at the ceiling fan. I didn't see that coming at all. I think that was one of the milestones in my Christian walk.

 

[TwistrAndy]

I'm 15, and already I've been "slain" in the spirit about five times. The first times was at youth revival at church, and at the alter call we all went up to be prayed for, and this one person prayed for me the whole time, and all of a sudden down I went, and when I fell I didn't feel myself hit the floor. If someone was to watch me, then they would say I probably got hurt, cause it looks like you just faint, but to me it was like something behind me just gently lowering me to the ground, and set me there. After I was down, I lay there for about 20 minutes, and I could move my arms and legs, (mainly because they were trembling anyways) but if I tried to lift my head, it felt like my head weighed 300 pounds. So finally they picked me up, and I couldn't walk, cause when they got me up and let go of me, I was on my way back down when they caught me. But each time this happens to me the rest of my body is trembling but my head won't budge a bit. I don't really try to move, because for me it feels so good. Alot of people of other denominations in my family tell me it's demonic or whatever. I know this experience is genuine because I have never looked forward to going to church, yes I always loved God, but I never wanted to go to church. After that, I don't miss a Sunday, Wednesday or Revival, I look forward to everytime the doors are open, and I have the greatest peace of mind ever, and when someone gets me down I think about the reward to come, and I've never felt like that before, and it's so wonderful. I mean if it was demonic, then my question is, why is the devil trying to get me in church? That's because it ain't the devil, it's God, and no one will ever change my mind. To me they're the ones missin out.

 

[w00t4j35u5]

As a minister, I have seen numerous people slain in the spirit. I have been slain countless times. Sometimes I was able to move and other times I was completly unable to move. I have seen people "fight" falling down, and others fake a fall. (I think Ive done both too!)

 

[ChristianRocks]

Can you move if your slain in the spirit?

I don't think I'd want to.

 

[Ecclesiastes]

Can you move if your slain in the spirit?

I would say so. I have seen people shake on the ground after they fell.

 

[Jim B]

What is all this emphasis on "carpet time?" Some people – I am talking Charismatics here; at least the one’s I prefer to hang with - believe that in all too many of these carpet services, when emphasis is directed away from the person and work of Jesus Christ toward some temporary emotional high, like falling on the carpet, the Holy Spirit is, in fact, grieved and leaves a service. Goosebumps are not evidence He is present - you can get goosebumps in a theater or at an amusement park.

It is the Spirit’s mission, I thought, to focus attention toward Jesus, not toward Himself and especially not toward some self-centered, self-serving emotional high He can give us. We are not the center of the Holy Spirit’s attention, Jesus Christ is. I thought that was a fundamental Charismatic doctrine.

Do people fall under the power of God? Surely it happens (it has happened to me, so I am not a total skeptic), but when “manifestations” become the climax, even the focus of a gathering of Christians and we - and not Jesus Christ - become the purpose of our being together, something is seriously wrong. When the focus of our gatherings becomes what we can personally receive from it and not what Christ receives from it, something is very self-centered about our relationship with the Lord. We like to say, “It’s not about me; it’s about Him,” but our actions belie us. So we attend churches and meetings where we get the greatest spiritual high. We are supposed to bless the LORD; we are not supposed to be the subjects of blessing.

John 15.26-27 "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.​

Because I so strongly believe in this central mission of the Spirit (to direct us away from ourselves and toward Christ) and am not that concerned about all the peripheral stuff (like falling down in a church service), I am going to be one of the lone voices in this thread, at the risk of censure, who will state that much of what passes off as a “move of the Spirit” might just in fact be just that - the Holy Spirit moving OUT of a gathering to leave people to get their weekly dose of emotional strokes. And some discerning people are not far behind Him when He leaves.

Jim
\o/

 

[Svt4Him]

What is all this emphasis on "carpet time?"

Is one thread an "emphasis"? If people share their experience is that an "emphasis"? It seems every time I've seen this phrase used, it was by someone who disagreed with what was happening. There was an 'emphasis' on tongues, there was an 'emphasis' on gifts, now there's an 'emphasis' on carpet time. Are people not able to share anything without it becoming an 'emphasis'?

 

[Jim B]

Is one thread an "emphasis"? If people share their experience is that an "emphasis"? It seems every time I've seen this phrase used, it was by someone who disagreed with what was happening. There was an 'emphasis' on tongues, there was an 'emphasis' on gifts, now there's an 'emphasis' on carpet time. Are people not able to share anything without it becoming an 'emphasis'?

It may be a perception, S, and just as subjective a view on one side as it is the other. I perceive it as an emphasis when it is becomes a normative part of a service. It may not be an emphasis for you. It is for me. It is how we view things.

BTW, I just did a “search this forum” search for the phrase “slain in the Spirit” and discovered, as you will, that the term - which does not appear one time in the Bible - can be found in 31 threads in this forum. This is not the lone thread that mentions of the term.

\o/

 

[Tami]

I think Jim's point is not that being slain in the spirit is a bad thing but making it the sole reason to go to church is what's bad. I'm not saying that everybody does this but I have been in some churches where it seemed like manifestations was all they lived for. There was one church I went to a few times when visiting family where it seemed like if someone wasn't howling then they weren't really having church. It seemed like all they were after was a spiritual high. I've been slain in the spirit a couple times myself so I'm not against it or anything but I do have a problem with people who are only after a spiritual high. I'm not saying that anybody in this thread is like that though.

 

[Svt4Him]

It may be a perception, S, and just as subjective a view on one side as it is the other. I perceive it as an emphasis when it is becomes a normative part of a service. It may not be an emphasis for you. It is for me. It is how we view things.

BTW, I just did a “search this forum” search for the phrase “slain in the Spirit” and discovered, as you will, that the term - which does not appear one time in the Bible - can be found in 31 threads in this forum. This is not the lone thread that mentions of the term.

\o/

A normal part of our service includes playing the drums, but that is not an emphasis. And if we had 31 threads on drum playing, no one would think it's an emphasis. Granted if they were all at once, one may think it spam. But have 31 threads on a topic not everyone accepts, and it's an emphasis. As Christians it seems we can talk about anything and not have a problem, but if it's spiritual, we're off. Why is playing drums any less spiritual than falling on the floor? EVERYTHING you do, do it unto the Lord. But it's probably better that everythink not be spiritual, otherwise we'll start debating on whether God can move if the ride (drum) isn't played with the snare or if the drums are too loud/quiet.

 

[Jim B]

Good point, S., but I still say it is a matter of perception.

I have been thinking about this thread today and am wondering …

Do I have to accept the popular view of being “slain in the Spirit” to be on this forum?
Can I still be a Spirit-filled believer and never be “slain in the Spirit?”
Can I, in fact, reject the practice and still be Spirit-filled?​

If being "slain in the Spirit” is as a normative a Christian experience as it seems to be in many modern gatherings of Christians these days (I am talking about the ones I attend), and which seems to invariably occur with the laying on of hands or, as in some instances, when a preacher gestures (or waves his jacket) to a section of an audience, then why didn’t this phenomenon occur when Jesus and the Apostles laid hands on people or why didn’t it accompany their preaching and ministry? And, if it did occur (and there is no indication that it ever did), then why wasn’t it considered important enough to mention in scripture.

If I accept the Scriptures as the final authority in all matters of doctrine and practice (which I do), I am at a loss as to why this experience has become so unusually common and not the exception in many congregations of God’s people. I can remember a time (I am an old codger with a long memory), when being “slain” seldom occurred and was certainly not as commonplace in church services as it seems to be today. It was definitely not a regular feature nor focus of our meetings as it is in too many services that I now attend.

\o/

Another matter:

How does the fruit of the spirit, ‘SELF-CONTROL,’ enter into the mix when a person claims, “I COULD NOT HELP MYSELF but had to fall down when someone laid hands on me?”

... or, they “could not help themselves” but had to blurt out a “message in tongues” at an inappropriate moment in the middle of a public service?
... or, they had no choice but to run around the building during a time of worship.
... or, the preacher suddenly had to change his sermon at the last minute (wasn’t he listening to God the week before?).​

Are the spirits of the prophets still subject to the prophets? What hidden meaning am I missing in the verse that says “But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way” in our public gatherings?

Is it too much to demand some sense of decorum in worship? Apparently, the Apostle insisted on it in 1 Corinthians 14.

Okay, I’m thinking out loud. I am not questioning the Bible. In fact, I want Christians to adhere more closely to the Bible and depend on it for truth and not on subjective experiences.

I know this view is not the popular one on this forum, but these are objections we must honestly field and answer if we are going to give everyone who asks us a (solid and biblical) reason for the hope that is in us.

 

[Andry]

Because I so strongly believe in this central mission of the Spirit (to direct us away from ourselves and toward Christ) and am not that concerned about all the peripheral stuff (like falling down in a church service), I am going to be one of the lone voices in this thread, at the risk of censure, who will state that much of what passes off as a “move of the Spirit” might just in fact be just that - the Holy Spirit moving OUT of a gathering to leave people to get their weekly dose of emotional strokes. And some discerning people are not far behind Him when He leaves.

Jim
\o/

Jim,

I'm going to go out on a limb with you, because I think I know where you're coming from. It can be frustrating sometimes, particularly in charismatic services, where many people seek the 'climax' of the service near the end when the 'preaching' is wrapped up and it's laying on of hands time. I’ve come to the profound opinion, I suppose you can call it that – it’s a conviction to me – that we pray for too many people; when we need to do what Jesus did with the woman caught in the act of adultery – go and sin no more.

Sometimes when we do this, ‘Pastor will you pray with me I’ve had a difficult week….’ It’s only the Christian version of smoking a joint. ‘Oh thank you pastor I feel better now.’ And no doubt you will feel better, but nothing’s changed. Nothing’s changed. And I’ve found myself as I’ve gone on in life, and I was raised in charismatic churches and I was raised in six to seven meetings a week…. I’ve found myself more and more asking the question when I go in gatherings, ‘What’s all that about?’ Is it fulfilling any meaningful purpose other than believers coming together and smoking their joint, ‘oh well we all feel better now.’

While I believe as you do that the central mission of the Spirit is to direct us toward Christ, church services are also a time for the gathered saints to be built up. When I teach/preach, I don't do what I do because I want to 'bless' people. I do what I do to build people. ("I will build my church - not buildings, but people, the called out ones - and the gates of hell shall not prevail," Jesus said). Cause the truth is if I bless you without building something, the blessing is only a feeling, and when the feeling goes what was deposited on you is gone, and your life will not change. But a building, is not just a feeling; when we build something we are establishing something in our lives. So I agree, the 'emphasis' should not be on that 'spiritual high' that many Christians seek on a weekly basis, but at the same time, as we direct our focus on Christ, part of that 'redirecting' is the building up of the saints (so they know/understand that Christ is the focus), and for many, that may include the direct laying on of hands and in addition to the 'word of the Lord' in that service.

 

[Jim B]

Thanx Tami and Andry. I don't feel as alone in this forum as I did before.

I do know from PMs I receive that there are others who share my views but for some reason, as one indicated, they are afraid of being broad-sided by those who disagree with them. It is fine to object to a person’s views (so long as scripture is brought to bear on the subject) and so long as personal attacks and questioning one's motives are not added to the argument. It is a shame that differing viewpoints are not as respected as they should be and that people are actually afraid to air their positions in a public forum.

Oh well.

 

[Svt4Him]

Jim, I agre with you in part. But let me try and answer. When it says 'let everything be done in order' does that mean everything BUT? People can focus on the order part, people can focus on the everything part, but there's what God's doiing in the middle of it.

But let me go back to my analogy, as I've heard this asked exactly as I'm going to present it. Well, not exactly, but same questions:

Do I have to accept the popular view of music in church? - nope
Can I still be a Spirit-filled believer and believe drums aren't in the Bible?” -yup
Can I, in fact, reject the practice and still be Spirit-filled? - sure.

​

Now for the fruit of the Spirit, let me get the verse:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

and:
(for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth),

Now when Moses talked to God, the people couldn't look on him. Was that a lack of self control? If so, does that mean it wasn't God's glory as it was causing confusion? What about a service that someone is so convicted of sin, they start crying, is that self control? I couldn't stop, so was it a different spirit convicting me of sin? And another thing is when talking about the fruit of the spirit, there is only one, and it is made up of all those areas. But fruit takes time to grow. But even following this, I have been in services that make me fall asleep, does that mean there is no joy? I felt none, apart from when they said we could leave. No Spirit?

Now to say I became a Christian when I saw this. The one thing I needed to know was that God was here, not up in space somewhere. When I saw this, it changed my life. But there have been times when I too wondered what was going on. But then I thought when I play with my son, we do things that others think are weird, but I do it because I love my son. I haven't quite come to the place where I think God plays with His kids yet, but that's because I am a doer, and I believe God loves me more when I am doing things for Him. To stay and play doesn't register. I know it's a wrong mindset, and maybe if I was to fall down and relax in God's presence I'd be changed. Now for my testimony, and it does have weight. (quick digress) People say if it's not in the Bible, they don't want to hear it. That's wrong. My testimony is my testimony, and it's powerful. We can overcome through our testimony, and the Blood of the Lamb. As a new Christian, I was 'slain' by the Spirit. In my mind, I asked three questions. What about my girlfriend (we lived together) what about my roommate (we did drugs every day together) and what about my work (when I was hired they asked if I was Christian, as the place was bad). I saw God put a sheild around my heart and felt (didn't hear) Him say "Don't worry, I'll guard your heart." then I started laughing. This laugh freed me from drugs, and I've never been around them since. That was quite a few years ago too. Some say laughing isn't God, it's out of order, it's a lack of control. I just grin inside and think of my testimony. If they ask, I'll tell, otherwise my heart just winks at God.

 

[Svt4Him]

Thanx Tami and Andry. I don't feel as alone in this forum as I did before.

I do know from PMs I receive that there are others who share my views but for some reason, as one indicated, they are afraid of being broad-sided by those who disagree with them. It is fine to object to a person’s views (so long as scripture is brought to bear on the subject) and so long as personal attacks and questioning one's motives are not added to the argument. It is a shame that differing viewpoints are not as respected as they should be and that people are actually afraid to air their positions in a public forum.

Oh well.

When you say broad-sided, you you mean a post like this? I see noone who's done this apart from the accusation that people do it. Personally I feel this is itself broad-siding those who disagree.

 

[Jim B]

When you say broad-sided, you you mean a post like this? I see noone who's done this apart from the accusation that people do it. Personally I feel this is itself broad-siding those who disagree.

Your post before this one was excellent, S. I do not completely agree, but at least I see your point.

This post, S, is not my feelings. They are the feelings of someone who sent me a PM. I am not afraid of being broadsided but I do object to my motives being prejudged as has often happened in this forum and I do resent when those who do not agree with me attack me personally. I confess, sometimes I have been guilty of that myself and have apologized. I know when we feel deeply about things it is hard to keep our feelings under control, but I appreciate it when you offer me sound, well-thought-out objections as you did in your post #36 above. Thanks for you views. I'll return soon. I have a honey-do to take care of.

\o/

 

[Jim B]

Svt4Him,

I guess my mindset is different from yours. I am the kind of guy that always - ALWAYS! - needs a scripture and verse to support everything I believe. I am this way to a fault, as you probably have noticed, but that is the way I am. Because God loves all of His children, I think He loves us the way we are: different; not clones. Probably, the family of God needs both (all) viewpoints and probably we can learn from one another. I am Vineyard by choice and I know a lot of my colleagues are experiential in their relationship to God. I am more dogmatic (a word I hate!), but please don’t judge the Vineyard by me. I am what is called post-Wimber Vineyard and, though Charismatic in my nurture I am Evangelical by nature.

Regarding the theme of this thread, when I see people flocking to meetings in churches (as they do in my area) for no other reason than they want to see (and be in) what strikes me as a religious snake-oil show, it goes against my temperament. I am not saying I am right and they are wrong, but it always comes down to “show me in the Bible.” If it has a scripture or scriptural precedent to support it, I am satisfied. If it doesn’t, I will have to be convinced in other ways, I suppose.

Because you and I have stood on opposite sides of issues, I just wanted you to know where I am coming from. I do respect your beliefs and opinions and, in some ways, wish I were more like you.

I guess I can only say, By the grace of God I am what I am.

Respectfully,
Jim
\o/

 

[Andry]

Regarding the theme of this thread, when I see people flocking to meetings in churches (as they do in my area) for no other reason than they want to see (and be in) what strikes me as a religious snake-oil show, it goes against my temperament. I am not saying I am right and they are wrong, but it always comes down to “show me in the Bible.” If it has a scripture or scriptural precedent to support it, I am satisfied. If it doesn’t, I will have to be convinced in other ways, I suppose.

Perhaps digressing from the OP, but had to add my thoughts to yours. Now I think it’s wonderful to have miracles in the church. And we are seeing them and we want to continue seeing them. But the truth is by and large that the church does not change in the midst of miracles; the church needs to change in spite of miracles, and because of miracles. But they must not be the root by which we change; they are a vehicle for manifesting the power of God and the kingdom of Heaven.

The children of Israel had miracles every single day for 40 years during their wandering in the desert. From the moment that they left Egypt, they were led by a cloud during the day, which covered them and protected them from the heat of the sun, and they were led by a pillar of fire, a column of fire, all the way through the night, which guarded them and gave them warmth. Every single day that miracle took place – physical manifest evidence, miracle. As they walked across the desert God began to provide bread for them. So that every day when they got out of their bed, and walked out of their tent, there on the ground, outside of the tent, was a delivery of fresh bread. Six days a week it was there; on the sixth day there were two deliveries of bread to allow for the Sabbath. And that happened day in and day out, month in and month out, year in and year out, every day they saw and witnessed a physical, obvious – you didn’t have to make a story around it – it was obvious, it was physical, and it was abundant, miracle provision of God. He split rocks and brought water out of dry rock in the middle of the desert where there was no well, and there was no fountain. One day He gave them so much meat that it was up to their waist. God providing all these miracles, but here’s the deal, they still died in the desert. The children of Israel had miracles every single day of their life and it changed absolutely nothing. They still grumbled, they still complained, they still missed the blessing of God, they never caught the plot, they never got into God’s purposes, and yet miracles were happening around them everyday.

So may I suggest that if they saw them in that frequency and it did not change the way they thought about the Kingdom of God one squat, that if we saw miracles manifest every day of our lives, it is not going to change the way we think about the Kingdom of God one squat. We will still die in the desert, we will still be discouraged, we’ll still be miserable, we’ll still grumble, we’ll still be disloyal, because…… miracles are not what we need. So for those of you who think, ‘if only I saw God do a certain healing, or if only I saw God do a certain provision, then it would change me.’ – it will not.

We have got to stop crying out, ‘O God send us miracles.’ And we have got to start praying like Jesus taught us to pray, ‘And may your kingdom come, and may your will be done, here on earth, just like it is in heaven.’ God does not want to drop miracles into us, He wants to drop kingdom into us. Because the issue is not about us surviving to go to heaven. The issue is about us living so that heaven can come to us.