Could be that there was some misunderstanding of my comment.What's so unusual? What other Scripture verses other than the O.T text do you believe Jesus was refurring too that the people of that time would understand and be familiar with?
I find your statement itself very interesting, as I did not do what you stated!Interesting PM, So you agree with something other than the Bible, the writings of fallible men? The reason I find it interesting, is because back on post #448 you professed the complete opposite!!
I am truly sorry to hear that.Unfortunately, my spiritual advisor has been diagnosed with Cancer and has been laid up in the infirmary at the Abby.
Hmmmm......But knowing Fr. A.......e the way I do, and if I were to show him my response/answer to your question, pretty sure he would say, "that pretty much say's/answers it all in a nut shell."
Pretty vague....whatever it is referring too, I'm not surprised that two Catholics would agree on something.Funny thing is PM, Swag365' answer on the Catholic questions thread, and mine pretty much mirrored each other answering your question.
And as I’ve stated before, you haven’t ‘answered’ the question, you’ve responded with empty, blathering rhetoric. And Swag365 hasn’t answered it either.Like I said before many times, your inquiry was answerd, but you were expecting different results in your "gotcha question" to fuel your anti-Catholic talking points. Oh Well!
Oh ye of little faith! Nothing is impossible for Him – He is ‘outside of time’. That should be Catholic enough for you. And since He didn’t specify the ‘Catholic church’ and the Catholic church was also not in existence when He made that statement, there is no reason to think that it could not be another one.Thank you PM, that is probably the most "Protestant" answer I have ever heard coming from a Protestant! Unfortunately, you have a huge problem believing this, for it would be impossible. The problem being, none of these Protestant churches or the numerous splinter churches that followed existed before the reformation. We are talking a fifteen hundred year difference here my friend! Sorry!
I have no idea why you posted them, as the claim you made is not evident in the reality of whom many Catholics and the Catholic church actually place their trust. (well, you didn’t actually post the verses, you just conveniently posted the references. Nice job Fidelibus!)Of course they do! Us Catholics, along with the Catholic Church believe in them 100%. Why do you think I posted them?
Your 'spiritual advisor' must be so proud of you.Wow! you sure had me fooled. I thought by a couple of your previous posts you just may have an inkling of what the Catholic Church actually believes and teaches her members. That just got tossed into the trash heap like a dirty diaper with this most unfortunate and unlearned statement of yours.
Did I say 'official' teachings - NO.FYI, These prayers were written hundred of years ago by Saints, Monks,, Church Theologians, ect. and in no way reflect official teachings of the Catholic Church. For example, the first prayer you posted was composed by St. John Bosco, a holy Italian priest of the 19th century. He had a deep spiritual life especially characterized by his love of the Virgin Mary. He spent great amounts of time in prayer each day and related to others several visions he had.
One of them included the Blessed Mother under the title of “Mary, Help of Christians.” The name of the prayer you posted, but conveniently left out along with the author. Nice job PM!
The prayer St. John Bosco composed, expresses this spiritual reality, invoking the heavenly aid of our Mother during our time of need.
In regards to your statements where you claim the Catholic Church teaches her members we are to put our trust and faith some where other than God, I'd like to propose a challenge to you similar to the challenge 'Swag365' did on the "Got Catholic Questions" thread pg #16. (which you have failed to accept I may add. No wait, what did you tell him? Oh yeah.... "hold that thought") Well I think he is still on hold PM!
Now PM, my challenge to you is...., show any official Catholic Church teaching, were the Church commands her members to worship, trust, and put their faith somewhere, or in someone other than God. Now, like what Swag365 said, If you can do this, I will leave the Catholic Church, and convert to any Protestant church of your choosing. Now........ if you cannot PM, do you have the sand and would you admit you cannot, and retract your statement saying otherwise? The ball is in your court!
You may want to start with the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and go to Paragraphs 2096-2097. Then check out Canon Law 1255 of the 1918 Codex. Good Luck!
Pretty vague....whatever it is referring too, I'm not surprised that two Catholics would agree on something.
And as I’ve stated before, you haven’t ‘answered’ the question, you’ve responded with empty, blathering rhetoric.
I have no idea why you posted them, as the claim you made is not evident in the reality of whom many Catholics and the Catholic church actually place their trust.
(well, you didn’t actually post the verses, you just conveniently posted the references. Nice job Fidelibus!)
Your 'spiritual advisor' must be so proud of you.
And as I’ve stated before, you haven’t ‘answered’ the question, you’ve responded with empty, blathering rhetoric.
And Swag365 hasn’t answered it either.
Oh ye of little faith! Nothing is impossible for Him – He is ‘outside of time’.
That should be Catholic enough for you.
And since He didn’t specify the ‘Catholic church’ and the Catholic church was also not in existence when He made that statement, there is no reason to think that it could not be another one.
Yes and as you can see below, certain Catholics embraced this prayer and by their examples and practices ‘taught’ other Catholics to place their trust in Mary…not God.
Do a search, there’s a plethora of information from Catholic sites about Marian practices and prayers that not just asking her to intercede in prayer, but are directed ‘to’ her to actually ‘do’ things, these practices had to come from 'somewhere', especially since the Catholic church itself and many of its leaders promulgate and encourage them.
Well your ‘thinking’, once again, is wrong, as he himself voided his own challenge by being honest.
Retract what statement "saying otherwise" – please post the statement that I made. If you are referring to the one below: it's already been dealt with and verified above.
These prayers below, based on the developed teaching of men from the Catholic church show where Catholics are taught to put their faith and trust and it's NOT in Him.
I suggest you check out scripture, as it confirms Who we should be trusting in and His ability to be able to meet all our needs!
Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.I get you are still in denial of my response because it didn't meet "your" approval, but I am not embolden to "your" approval or non-approval.
My question, my determination on whether it was answered or simply responded too.You may not agree with it, but that's on you. Just because "you" feel the question was not answered doesn't give you the final authority to determine it one way or the other.
What "anti-Catholic rhetoric" would that be? Hopefully after making such an accusation you can show where this has been done by me, if not it remains as nothing more than a desperate, panicky, tossed out slur on your part.Sure I did. Unfortuntely for you, it just didn't meet or fuel "your" anti-Catholic rhetoric...
Oh I noticed the key word 'help'....but that has nothing at all to do with the context of what I posted, being : Yes and as you can see below, certain Catholics embraced this prayer and by their examples and practices ‘taught’ other Catholics to place their trust in Mary…not God.Apparently, you didn't notice the key word in the quotes from the popes you posted. The key word being "help"..... aka... intercession of the saints and angels before the throne of God. The Saints hear our prayers in heaven by God’s power and take them before the throne of God as “spirits of the just made perfect” (Heb 12:23) Also see Rev. 5:8 and Rev. 8:3-4.
Again, show where, any where, the Catholic Church teaches we are to put our total trust and faith somewhere other than God. I on the other hand will show you otherwise.
Oh.... meaning,,,, you are suggesting I should check out and believe what "you" and your personal and fallible interpretations/opinions, that have absolutely no authority over me or anyone else, thinks these passages (Eph.1:15-23; Col.1:15-23) may mean, and are subject to error.... right?
CCC: Paragraph 2096; "Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. "You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve," says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy."
Padre Pio’s Prayers – Our Lady of Graces
VISIT TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY (excerpt)
I love you, O most lovable Lady, and because of my love for you, I promise to serve you always and to do all in my power to win others to love you also. In your hands I place all my hopes; I entrust the salvation of my soul to your care. Accept me as your servant, O Mother of Mercy; receive me under your mantle.
..........................................................
CCC: Paragraph 2097; "To adore God is to acknowledge, in respect and absolute submission, the "nothingness of the creature" who would not exist but for God. To adore God is to praise and exalt him and to humble oneself, as Mary did in the Magnificat, confessing with gratitude that he has done great things and holy is his name. The worship of the one God sets man free from turning in on himself, from the slavery of sin and the idolatry of the world."
Mary was a "creature" herself. - "idolatry of the world."
............................................................
Canon Law 1255 of the 1918 Codex strictly forbids adoration of anyone other than the Holy Trinity. However, Catholics do feel that Mary is entitled to a great measure of exaltation because, in choosing her as the Mother of Redemption, God Himself exalted her – exalted her more than any other human person before or since.
"However".... handy little word
To clarify, Mary herself does not perform miracles; all miracles are an act of God. That being said, Catholics that DO know their faith, believe that Mary will pray for us if we ask, and that God’s miracles can be related to her intercession.
The Pope clearly does more than just ask for her intercession/prayers, he asks her, and encourages Catholics to ask her to DO things.
https://www.archstl.org/pope-francis-composes-prayers-for-end-of-pandemic-to-be-recited-after-rosary-5271
O Mary, You shine continuously on our journey as a sign of salvation and hope. We entrust ourselves to you, Health of the Sick, who, at the foot of the cross, were united with Jesus’ suffering, and persevered in your faith.
“Protectress of the Roman people,” you know our needs, and we know that you will provide, so that, as at Cana in Galilee, joy and celebration may return after this time of trial.
Help us, Mother of Divine Love, to conform ourselves to the will of the Father and to do what Jesus tells us. For he took upon himself our suffering, and burdened himself with our sorrows to bring us, through the cross, to the joy of the Resurrection. Amen.
We fly to your protection, O Holy Mother of God; Do not despise our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from every danger, O Glorious and Blessed Virgin.
“We fly to your protection, O Holy Mother of God.”
In the present tragic situation, when the whole world is prey to suffering and anxiety, we fly to you, Mother of God and our mother, and seek refuge under your protection.
Virgin Mary, turn your merciful eyes toward us amid this coronavirus pandemic. Comfort those who are distraught and mourn their loved ones who have died, and at times are buried in a way that grieves them deeply. Be close to those who are concerned for their loved ones who are sick and who, in order to prevent the spread of the disease, cannot be close to them. Fill with hope those who are troubled by the uncertainty of the future and the consequences for the economy and employment.
Mother of God and our Mother, pray for us to God, the father of mercies, that this great suffering may end and that hope and peace may dawn anew. Plead with your divine Son, as you did at Cana, so that the families of the sick and the victims be comforted, and their hearts be opened to confidence and trust.
Protect those doctors, nurses, health workers and volunteers who are on the frontline of this emergency, and are risking their lives to save others. Support their heroic effort and grant them strength, generosity and continued health.
Be close to those who assist the sick night and day, and to priests who, in their pastoral concern and fidelity to the Gospel, are trying to help and support everyone.
Blessed Virgin, illumine the minds of men and women engaged in scientific research, that they may find effective solutions to overcome this virus.
Support national leaders, that with wisdom, solicitude and generosity they may come to the aid of those lacking the basic necessities of life and may devise social and economic solutions inspired by farsightedness and solidarity.
Mary Most Holy, stir our consciences, so that the enormous funds invested in developing and stockpiling arms will instead be spent on promoting effective research on how to prevent similar tragedies from occurring in the future.
Beloved Mother, help us realize that we are all members of one great family and to recognize the bond that unites us, so that, in a spirit of fraternity and solidarity, we can help to alleviate countless situations of poverty and need. Make us strong in faith, persevering in service, constant in prayer.
Mary, Consolation of the afflicted, embrace all your children in distress and pray that God will stretch out his all-powerful hand and free us from this terrible pandemic, so that life can serenely resume its normal course.
To you, who shine on our journey as a sign of salvation and hope, do we entrust ourselves, O Clement, O Loving, O Sweet Virgin Mary. Amen.
…………………………….
Padre Pio’s Prayers – Our Lady of Graces
VISIT TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY
Most holy Virgin Immaculate, my Mother Mary, it is to you, who are the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the world, the advocate, the hope and the refuge of sinners, that I have recourse today, I, who most of all am deserving of pity. Most humbly do I offer you my homage, O great Queen, and I thank you for all the graces you have obtained for me until now, and particularly for having saved me from Hell, which, by my sins, I have so often deserved.
I love you, O most lovable Lady, and because of my love for you, I promise to serve you always and to do all in my power to win others to love you also. In your hands I place all my hopes; I entrust the salvation of my soul to your care. Accept me as your servant, O Mother of Mercy; receive me under your mantle. And since you have such power with God, deliver me from all temptations, or rather, obtain for me the strength to triumph over them until death. Of you I ask the grace of perfect love for Jesus Christ. Through your help I hope to die a happy death. O my Mother I beg you, by the love you bear my God, to help me at all times, but especially at the last moment of my life. Do not leave me, I beseech you, until you see me safe in Heaven, blessing you and singing your mercies for all eternity, amen. So I hope, so may it be.
AN ACT OF CONSECRATION
O Mary, Virgin most powerful and Mother of mercy, Queen of Heaven and Refuge of sinners, we consecrate ourselves to thine Immaculate Heart. We consecrate to thee our very being and our whole life; all that we have, all that we love, all that we are. To thee we give our bodies, our hearts and our souls; to thee we give our homes, our families, our country. We desire that all that is in us and around us may belong to thee, and may share in the benefits of thy motherly benediction.
And that this act of consecration may be truly efficacious and lasting, we renew this day at thy feet the promises of our Baptism and our first Holy Communion. We pledge ourselves to profess courageously and at all times the truths of our holy Faith, and to live as befits Catholics who are duly submissive to all the directions of the Pope and the Bishops in communion with him. We pledge ourselves to keep the commandments of God and His Church, in particular to keep holy the Lord’s Day. We likewise pledge ourselves to make the consoling practices of the Christian religion, and above all, Holy Communion, an integral part of our lives, in so far as we shall be able so to do.
Finally, we promise thee, O glorious Mother of God and loving Mother of men, to devote ourselves whole-heartedly to the service of thy blessed cult, in order to hasten and assure, through the sovereignty of thine Immaculate Heart, the coming of the kingdom of the Sacred Heart of thine adorable Son, in our own hearts and in those of all men, in our country and in all the world, as in heaven. so on earth. Amen.
………………………………
Mary, Star of the Sea
Mary, Star of the Sea
September 19, 2017
“She, I say, is that shining and brilliant star, so much needed, set in place above life’s great and spacious sea, glittering with merits, all aglow with examples for our imitation. Oh, whosoever thou art that perceiveth thyself during this mortal existence to be rather drifting in treacherous waters, at the mercy of the winds and the waves, than walking on firm ground, turn not away thine eyes from the splendor of this guiding star, unless thou wish to be submerged by the storm! When the storms to temptation burst upon thee, when thou seest thyself driven upon the rocks of tribulation, look at the star, call upon Mary. When buffeted by the billows of pride, or ambition, or hatred, or jealousy, look at the star, call upon Mary. Should anger, or avarice, or fleshly desire violently assail the frail vessel of thy soul, look at the star, call upon Mary. If troubled on account of the heinousness of thy sins, distressed at the filthy state of thy conscience, and terrified at the thought of the awful judgment to come, thou art beginning to sink into the bottomless gulf of sadness and to be swallowed in the abyss of despair, then think of Mary. In dangers, in doubts, in difficulties, think of Mary, call upon Mary. Let not her name leave thy lips, never suffer it to leave thy heart. And that thou mayest more surely obtain the assistance of her prayer, see that thou dost walk in her footsteps. With her for guide, thou shalt never go astray; whilst invoking her, thou shalt never lose heart; so long as she is in thy mind, thou shalt not be deceived; whilst she holds thy hand, thou canst not fall; under her protection, thou hast nothing to fear; if she walks before thee, thou shalt not grow weary; if she shows thee favor, thou shalt reach the goal.”
(Translation from Pius XII’s encyclical, paragraph 31).
St. Bernard on Mary, Star of the Sea
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Many devotions to Mary, many prayers and petitions, state that she can do this or that if she chooses. She can guarantee that the petitioner will not die without a last chance to repent, for example. Of course, not every prayer is that way, and it can be said that it's only because of God that she is able to grant such petitions, but the fact remains that this kind of thing is part of the issue, even apart from the question of whether or not it's proper.Again PM, please show where any of these intercessory prayers, writings, or poems ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to "Do Things" on Her own and outside the power of God?
Already addressed the CCC/Canon Law quotes in my post #465....red part especially.Again PM, please show where any of these intercessory prayers, writings, or poems ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to "Do Things" on Her own and outside the power of God?
So, in case you missed it on my post # 463, I will re-post it.
"Again, show where, any where, the Catholic Church teaches we are to put our total trust and faith somewhere other than God. I on the other hand will show you otherwise.
CCC: Paragraph 2096; "Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. "You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve," says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy."
CCC: Paragraph 2097; "To adore God is to acknowledge, in respect and absolute submission, the "nothingness of the creature" who would not exist but for God. To adore God is to praise and exalt him and to humble oneself, as Mary did in the Magnificat, confessing with gratitude that he has done great things and holy is his name. The worship of the one God sets man free from turning in on himself, from the slavery of sin and the idolatry of the world."
Canon Law 1255 of the 1918 Codex strictly forbids adoration of anyone other than the Holy Trinity. However, Catholics do feel that Mary is entitled to a great measure of exaltation because, in choosing her as the Mother of Redemption, God Himself exalted her – exalted her more than any other human person before or since.
Have a Blessed Day!
This say it allMany devotions to Mary, many prayers and petitions, state that she can do this or that if she chooses. She can guarantee that the petitioner will not die without a last chance to repent, for example. Of course, not every prayer is that way, and it can be said that it's only because of God that she is able to grant such petitions, but the fact remains that this kind of thing is part of the issue, even apart from the question of whether or not it's proper.
Here are several examples:
Petitions to the Sorrowful Heart of Mary – Redimidos (wordpress.com)
I love the Memorare. Thanks for sharing!
Not "it can be said", it is plainly stated, repeatedly, throughout Catholic theology.Many devotions to Mary, many prayers and petitions, state that she can do this or that if she chooses. She can guarantee that the petitioner will not die without a last chance to repent, for example. Of course, not every prayer is that way, and it can be said that it's only because of God that she is able to grant such petitions, but the fact remains that this kind of thing is part of the issue, even apart from the question of whether or not it's proper.
LOL Read the Bible. In the Davidic kingdom, the mother of the king is the queen. At the cross Jesus made Mary our spiritual mother--mother of His Church.My Queen, My Mother, I offer
myself entirely to thee.
And to show my devotion to thee,
I offer thee this day, my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart,
my whole being without reserve.
Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own,
keep me, guard me as thy property and possession.
Amen.
I guess that leaves God with nothing. Oh well.
That isn't the point, however. What I was saying is that there is a counter-argument (yours), but that it does not excuse every case where the devotions go too far. Unfortunately, that counter is routinely used by some people to justify all prayers to the saints.Not "it can be said", it is plainly stated, repeatedly, throughout Catholic theology.
LOL Read the Bible. In the Davidic kingdom, the mother of the king is the queen. At the cross Jesus made Mary our spiritual mother--mother of His Church.
Again, this is what I posted:
Yes and as you can see below, certain Catholics embraced this prayer and by their examples and practices ‘taught’ other Catholics to place their trust in Mary…not God.
So the queen receives complete and utter obeisance from the subjects and the king receives nothing of the sort?
It is the height of dishonesty and deception for the RCC to hide its Mariolatry.
That we are supposed to take it too.......If a brother has something against another brother he is to go to him in person. If the problem is not resolved, then he is to bring two or three others. If they cannot resolve it then the matter is to be laid before the church (a larger body of believers) who will judge the matter.
The local church, of course.
If you suppose that the pillar and ground of truth rests with a self-professedly infallible leader of a huge religious bureaucracy, you are most assuredly wrong. It rests with Jesus Christ alone and His word, the Bible, alone.
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