Can you fall from being saved?

aggie03 · Jul 20, 2005

Can you find any examples in the New Testament where someone "appears" to be saved, but then really wasn't? That's not the way that Bible talks about the subject. The Bible says there are people who were saved and then decided to walk away from the Lord.

SoulFly51 · Jul 20, 2005

aggie03 said:
Can you find any examples in the New Testament where someone "appears" to be saved, but then really wasn't? That's not the way that Bible talks about the subject. The Bible says there are people who were saved and then decided to walk away from the Lord.

The story of Simon the Sorcerer comes to mind. It appears that he was saved (along with the rest of the crowd around him), but then he strayed.

holo · Jul 20, 2005

OreGal said:
The analogy I always use is that you can go sit your little self in a henhouse all day. Cluck til your little heart is content, peck and scratch at the soil. Hey you can even consume some bugs if that is your heart's delight but that doesn't make you poultry. That's all superficial stuff. What matters is what is internal.

If you really think that, be careful to decide that the girl in question has fallen from salvation (don't know how though) or indeed that she was never saved in the first place.

I don't think you can use her living with her boyfriend etc anymore than her church-going, to decide whether or not she's saved.

SoulFly51 · Jul 20, 2005

I don't think any of us can decide if anyone is saved or not. That's not up to us, and that knowledge isn't granted to us.

aggie03 · Jul 21, 2005

WesWoodell said:
The story of Simon the Sorcerer comes to mind. It appears that he was saved (along with the rest of the crowd around him), but then he strayed.

Acts 8:12-13 ASV

But when they believed Philip preaching good tidings concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. (13) And Simon also himself believed: and being baptized, he continued with Philip; and beholding signs and great miracles wrought, he was amazed.

I've pasted the text from the beginning of the example you mentioned. Simon was saved. If he became "unsaved" some time later it was because he fell from grace, not because he was never saved.

aggie03 · Jul 21, 2005

WesWoodell said:
I don't think any of us can decide if anyone is saved or not. That's not up to us, and that knowledge isn't granted to us.

Can you know that you are saved? If you can know that you are saved, then there is some basis on which judgment can be made as to whether or not someone else is.

I will agree that there are internal things that cannot really be judged from human perspectives, but God also said that if the inside of the man is right, then the outside of the man will do the things that God asks. If one does not do the things that God asks, what is the conclusion that can be drawn?

Can I pass eternal judgment on someone's soul? Absolutely not. Can I have a good idea of where someone will end up spending eternity? Yes. Does this mean that my limited judgment is always correct? No.

Neither does this mean that I should stop making judgments. It is explicitly clear in the Scriptures that God wants me to help other people get to heaven. One of the ways that I can help do that is by helping other people live lives that are pleasing to God -- this means pointing out things that need to change sometimes.

I suppose the bottom line is that Jesus said we will all be judged by the word of God, so if our lives don't conform to it (or we see others whose lives don't) then there are some changes that need to take place.

Leah · Jul 21, 2005

WesWoodell said:
I don't think any of us can decide if anyone is saved or not. That's not up to us, and that knowledge isn't granted to us.

Wes.......you're right.

Its not in our place to determine whether someone is saved or not. Besides, if we just relied on what our eyes see on the outside, then I guess we all would be considered as not saved either. You feel what I'm sayin?

SoulFly51 · Jul 21, 2005

Yes I do.

And as Christians, we should know in our hearts that we are saved.

1 John 5:13
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
(NIV)

I also agree with you, Aggie. We know what the Bible says, and we should warn others when they are stepping away from the teachings of God. But we should never pass judgement on them as to where they'll spend eternity.

For all we know Judas will join us in heaven ...

SoulFly51 · Jul 21, 2005

By the way - I believe there are two different words for "judge" in the Bible. One refers to judging behavior or judging right from wrong, and another refers to judging as God will judge us on Judgement Day (whether we will go to heaven or hell).

We are commanded to judge in the first way, and we are commanded not to judge the second way.

Theophorus · Jul 21, 2005

OreGal said:
My view on this tends to be a bit different from some on this forum. I personally believed that once you are truly saved, that is it, you are saved. I have a family member who was 'saved' in a word of faith church. She spoke in tongues, got herself slain in the ol' Spirit when she could, so on and so forth. She is now living with her boyfriend, doesn't go to church anymore and 'religion' is no longer a part of her life. This perplexes some in my family. I just don't feel she ever became saved in the first place. I think she had a pseudo-salvation and never really understood true salvation and a true relationship with God. Sure, she lived a 'good' life by her definition, went to church, had all these signs and gifts from 'god' and she would have adamently told you then she was saved. That was her 'salvation' and not from God.

Having been hijacked into false beliefs and teachings, I think this is very common. If you are truly walking with God, you won't desert Him and He certainly will not desert you.

The analogy I always use is that you can go sit your little self in a henhouse all day. Cluck til your little heart is content, peck and scratch at the soil. Hey you can even consume some bugs if that is your heart's delight but that doesn't make you poultry. That's all superficial stuff. What matters is what is internal.

God bless.

Let's think about this a second. Many people will fall in love with someone, maybe even get married. They often share something in common with that person. It is an intense experience, often many times more intense than a persons "relationship" with God, yet many times selfishness endures within the heart, and they fall apart.

If we are honest with ourselves, we know that we can choose to espouse ourselves to whom we please. The promise of Christ is that we can become that "chicken" even though our nature is contrary to it. That by grace we become what we are not.

Jim Woodell · Jul 21, 2005

Stinker said:
QUOTE=Stinker]When one quotes (Heb.6:4-6) as a 'proof-text' that a saved person can be lost, they always fail to see that it back-fires on them because it says that; 'if they fall away, it is impossible for them to be brought back to repentance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not a "back-fire" it is serious business. God is clear in this passage, don't flirt with sin!! A person can reach a place in their lifes where they cannot be brought back to repentance, even though they were at one time in a saved relationship with Jesus. [Jim Woodell post #14]

"A person can 'reach a place' in their life where they cannot be brought 'back' to repentance."

Now the 'place' that the people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 had 'reached' is not described, nor the subject. What is described, and the focus of the subject, is their abandonment of what they had experienced when they were practicing Christians......

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

soldout · Jul 21, 2005

holo said:
If you really think that, be careful to decide that the girl in question has fallen from salvation (don't know how though) or indeed that she was never saved in the first place.

I don't think you can use her living with her boyfriend etc anymore than her church-going, to decide whether or not she's saved.

If I remember my bible study correctly, isn't it God Himself who decides who is saved and who is not?

Didn't Jesus Himself have a "thing" for loving harlots into the Kingdom?

If I remember right, it kind of ticked off the "good" people then too.

Stinker · Jul 21, 2005

The story of Simon the Sorcerer comes to mind. It appears that he was saved (along with the rest of the crowd around him), but then he strayed.

aggie03 said:
Acts 8:12-13 ASV

But when they believed Philip preaching good tidings concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. (13) And Simon also himself believed: and being baptized, he continued with Philip; and beholding signs and great miracles wrought, he was amazed.

I've pasted the text from the beginning of the example you mentioned. Simon was saved. If he became "unsaved" some time later it was because he fell from grace, not because he was never saved.

There are 2 parts necessary for New Testament faith or belief.
These are of the intellect and of the will. We have examples of people having just one of either of these, and of course the people fail the Lord. Simon the sorcerer, by the words of his mouth, reveals that he was never a true believer. Here are some other people that lacked one of the components of New Testament belief as well;

Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God. (Jn.12:42-43)

SoulFly51 · Jul 21, 2005

There's a big difference between faith and belief in my book. I believe faith is belief with legs. Action accompanies faith.

InnerPhyre · Jul 21, 2005

If salt loses its taste, it is cast out and trampled. If a branch ceases to bear fruit, it is pruned.

SoulFly51 · Jul 22, 2005

Stinker said:
Simon the sorcerer, by the words of his mouth, reveals that he was never a true believer. Here are some other people that lacked one of the components of New Testament belief as well;

Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God. (Jn.12:42-43)

I don't know - it says that they believed. It seems that these men lacked faith rather than belief. Once again, it is my understanding that faith and belief are two different things.

Apologetic · Jul 22, 2005

I have to ask:

How can you opinionize such an important question?

Now - I have much to say about "being slain in the spirit" as well, but I'm going to stick with this subject here and maybe I'll start a new thread on the "slain in the spirit"-thing.

What did the apostles teach on this subject? The Bible has the answer to this, and it's pretty clear.

I cannot find any proof in the Bible that says once we are saved, we can do whatever we like, even stop believing in Christ, and still go to heaven when we die. However, I can find heaps of warnings against falling away from the faith.

First, there is the Bible proof from the Gospels, showing that the "once saved-always saved"-doctrine is a misconception and is biblically wrong:

Proof_from_the_Gospels

Then there are the letters:

Proof_from_2ndThess

Proof_1stTim_to_James

Proof_from_1stPeter_to_Revelation

Corrections_and_misconceptions_in_the_OSAS

Let it be known that in referring to this article, I do not necessarily agree with the author on all subjects.

Stinker · Jul 22, 2005

I cannot find any proof in the Bible that says once we are saved, we can do whatever we like, even stop believing in Christ, and still go to heaven when we die. However, I can find heaps of warnings against falling away from the faith. [Apologetic post #37]

Anyone who thinks that a person who has been truly born again can resume the practice of sin, does not accurately understand what being born again means.

When a person has been truly born again (Jn.3:7-9) they are connected to the Supernatural. That Supernatural will never let Satan steal that person's soul away.

The confusion comes when people do not allow for the tares (weeds that resemble wheat) that Jesus said would be in the church. These are the one's that give the truly saved a bad name.

Apologetic · Jul 22, 2005

Then what do you make of this passage:

2Pet 2: 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (notice that the Bible says they really knew Him) and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[f]and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

Seriously. How do OSAS twist this Scripture passage?

Don't let men's teachings interpret Scripture for you. Let Scripture interpret itself.

Lynn73 · Jul 22, 2005

Charles Stanley has an excellent book out entitled Eternal Security, can you be sure? He used to believe salvation could be lost but has changed his stance on that.

No, I don't believe a person who is truly saved and been sealed by the Spirit can ever be lost. Backslide, yes. Get out of fellowship, yes. Fall into greivous sin, yes. Be lost again, no. There's too much biblical evidence to the contrary. A Christians behavior can be such that someone watching might no know the difference between the Christian and the lost..but God knows those that are truly His.

Can you fall from being saved?

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