Can you be SINLESS?

not under law said:

I believe it is pointless to debate with anyone who can so casually lie without conscience whilst claiming sinlessness. Matt23 comes to mind

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Could you be a little bit more specific, do you actually mean the entire chapter 23?

I'm sure you are thinking of something more precise.

not under law said:

Now I am confused, if you do not have to be sinless to be saved, and if you are saved you are born again, I do not see how this equates with you stating born again Christians cannot or do not sin

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and @JIMINZ

Just for the record, I know you must be sinless to be saved.

JIMINZ said:

Would you explain verses 17,18 for me?



You haven't reconciled them you have misinterpreted them.

No one is saying, you have to be sinless in order to be saved, I would also respond NO to that question.

The answer NO to the second question is correct also.

The problem we are having seems to be that where I say, "I cannot sin" you are saying "you can and do sin" on a regular basis.

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I could explain verses17&18 to you, but it would firstly be nice to hear your take on them. Why did Paul ask the question for example: Does Christ promote sin? What justification is Paul talking about in those verses? It is a justification that takes time to achieve, justification is instantaneous upon accepting Christ as your saviour? What does Paul mean when he states: If I rebuild what I destroyed I really would be a lawbreaker? Thanks

I'm done for the time being. May return later.

JIMINZ said:

Could you be a little bit more specific, do you actually mean the entire chapter 23?

I'm sure you are thinking of something more precise.

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The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practise what they preach. 2&3
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces.13

not under law said:

Now I am confused, if you do not have to be sinless to be saved, and if you are saved you are born again, I do not see how this equates with you stating born again Christians cannot or do not sin

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1) Nobody is sinless before they receive Salvation.

Rom.3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom. 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

A Born Again Believer is (Regenerated) unto Newness of Life in the Spirit.

Therefore when John writes.

1Jn. 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God.

He is speaking about the Children of God.

JIMINZ said:

1) No body is sinless before they receive Salvation.

Rom.3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom. 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

A Born Again Believer is (Regenerated) unto Newness of Life in the Spirit.

Therefore when John writes.

1Jn. 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God.

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I always think that simply quoting the letter proves little, a child could do it, with pet scriptures, discerning the message written in scripture is a bit harder to do. It would firstly be nice to hear your take on Gal2:17&18. Why did Paul ask the question for example: Does Christ promote sin? What justification is Paul talking about in those verses? It is a justification that takes time to achieve, justification is instantaneous upon accepting Christ as your saviour? What does Paul mean when he states: If I rebuild what I destroyed I really would be a lawbreaker? Thanks

not under law said:

I could explain verses17&18 to you, but it would firstly be nice to hear your take on them. Why did Paul ask the question for example: Does Christ promote sin? What justification is Paul talking about in those verses? It is a justification that takes time to achieve, justification is instantaneous upon accepting Christ as your saviour? What does Paul mean when he states: If I rebuild what I destroyed I really would be a lawbreaker? Thanks

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That is a cop out, if you can't, or do not want to answer the question, I fully understand how that goes, just say you can't that's ok.

JIMINZ said:

That is a cop out, if you can't, or do not want to answer the question, I fully understand how that goes, just say you can't that's ok.

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Nope, I've already responded to that scripture. Neither you or 1st century lady can explain Gal2:17&18, and answer the specific questions asked concerning it.

not under law said:

I always think that simply quoting the letter proves little, a child could do it, with pet scriptures, discerning the message written in scripture is a bit harder to do. It would firstly be nice to hear your take on Gal2:17&18. Why did Paul ask the question for example: Does Christ promote sin? What justification is Paul talking about in those verses? It is a justification that takes time to achieve, justification is instantaneous upon accepting Christ as your saviour? What does Paul mean when he states: If I rebuild what I destroyed I really would be a lawbreaker? Thanks

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I believe in posting TRUTH rather than what I might think is Truth, or my personal opinion on what somebody else wrote under the Inspiration of The Holy Spirit.

I posted verse 9 because that is what you posted, but in order to fully understand what is said in verse 9 then read verse 9 in it's full context.

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

not under law said:

Nope, I've already responded to that scripture. Neither you or 1st century lady can explain Gal2:17&18, and answer the specific questions asked concerning it.

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refresh my memory what post did you do this in?

JIMINZ said:

I believe in posting TRUTH rather than what I might think is Truth, or my personal opinion on what somebody else wrote under the Inspiration of The Holy Spirit.

I posted verse 9 because that is what you posted, but in order to fully understand what is said in verse 9 then read verse 9 in it's full context.

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

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You can tell a person who can discern spiritual truth, they do not just quote their pet scriptures, they can explain scripture, neither you or 1st century lady can explain the two verses asked, nor answer the specific questions raised concerning them

JIMINZ said:

refresh my memory what post did you do this in?

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I could explain verses17&18 to you, but it would firstly be nice to hear your take on them. Why did Paul ask the question for example: Does Christ promote sin? What justification is Paul talking about in those verses? It is a justification that takes time to achieve, justification is instantaneous upon accepting Christ as your saviour? What does Paul mean when he states: If I rebuild what I destroyed I really would be a lawbreaker? Thanks

not under law said:

I could explain verses17&18 to you, but it would firstly be nice to hear your take on them. Why did Paul ask the question for example: Does Christ promote sin? What justification is Paul talking about in those verses? It is a justification that takes time to achieve, justification is instantaneous upon accepting Christ as your saviour? What does Paul mean when he states: If I rebuild what I destroyed I really would be a lawbreaker? Thanks

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Oh I get it, because you said this first then you don't have to interpret it like you want others to do first.

Like i said that is a cop out.

JIMINZ said:

Oh I get it, because you said this first then you don't have to interpret it like you want others to do first.

Like i said that is a cop out.

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If you really want to commit no sin, you should be humble and honest, and admit you cannot explain those verses, and answer the specific questions asked

‘But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker.

Someone in Christ has been born again

But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness Rom6:17-19

Immediatley upon accepting Christ as your saviour you are justified/righteous in God’s sight, so what justification is Paul speaking of in Gal2:16&17? In the above, Paul states the romans used to be slaves to sin, but by following the teaching given they have now become set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness, so they have crossed over from one state to another, but this crossing over takes time, it is not instantaneous. Paul adds they have become slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. If they were already sinless they would not be slaves of righteousness leading to holiness, they would already be perfectly holy. Must read the bible as one cohesive whole, and verse 18 is a good example of not committing error in this regard.

We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

‘But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker.



A new believer may have lived a life riddled with sin. They may have been an alcoholic for thirty years, a constant blasphemer, a habitual thief been in prison and had multiple affairs. All of these things do not simply vanish overnight, but change must come, they must cross over from being a slave to sin to a slave of righteousness leading to holiness. They seek justification of their faith in this regard by faith in Christ, not obeying the law/works of the law. They trust in Christ to get them to where they need to be.

The new believer might immediately stop using foul language for example, they may stop stealing, evidence of being born again is already being shown. But alcohol is not so easy, they have been its slave for so long. One night, the new convert goes to church, they heartily join in the service, praising God for what he has done for them through Christ. Someone who does not understand the Gospel message regarding new believers may smell alcohol on the mans breath as he is there worshipping and heartily praising God. What may they think? ‘’If this man is a Christian Christ must promote sin, for here he is praising and worshipping God whilst being an evident sinner’’. However, though the man is heartily praising God he still hates the sin that he is not yet free of for he has been born again, he does not want it. But he is still entitled to praise God for what he has done for him in Christ, for he is standing in his one and only righteous/justification before God, faith in His Son, and he seeks justification of his new found faith by faith in him. If the man cannot praise God in this regard he may as well go round in sackcloth and ashes until he is as pure as the driven snow

Immediatley after Paul asks the question he answers it: Absolutely not, if I rebuild what I destroyed I really would be a lawbreaker. What has Paul sought so hard to destroy? Righteousnes of obeying the law. Therefore, if he strove to defeat the sin in order to justify his Christianity, he would fail, and simply prove he was a lawbreaker

not under law said:

Nope, I've already responded to that scripture. Neither you or 1st century lady can explain Gal2:17&18, and answer the specific questions asked concerning it.

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The works of the law are the outward works the Old Covenant law demanded such as keeping the Sabbath and holy days, eating only clean meat, being circumcised, etc. The Galatians who were Gentiles, were being harassed by Judaizers saying they must become circumcised to be saved. Paul replies to the Galatians in chapter 5:

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

What did you think? That the works of the law is staying moral. What then? Should you sin so grace may abound? Paul said, God forbid!

And John said in 1 John 3:23-24
23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Don't let the lust of the flesh rule you to believe obedience to God is works. Revelation 14:12 Those who fulfill the lust of the flesh will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. In other words, those who willfully sin carnally, who have never been born again and filled with the Spirit of Christ die in the sins.

CharismaticLady said:

The works of the law are the outward works the Old Covenant law demanded such as keeping the Sabbath and holy days, eating only clean meat, being circumcised, etc. The Galatians who were Gentiles, were being harassed by Judaizers saying they must become circumcised to be saved. Paul replies to the Galatians in chapter 5:

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

What did you think? That the works of the law is staying moral. What then? Should you sin so grace may abound? Paul said, God forbid!

And John said in 1 John 3:23-24
23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Don't let the lust of the flesh rule you to believe obedience to God is works. Revelation 14:12 Those who fulfill the lust of the flesh will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. In other words, those who willfully sin carnally, who have never been born again and filled with the Spirit of Christ.

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I will make a general point before leaving the thread, nothing to be gained debating people who have hardened hearts where sin is concerned
Some come on these websites and have read the bible extensively. They know much of the letter written in it, and consider themselves somewhat of experts in knowledge. But they only have a superficial understanding. The Pharisees of Jesus day could endlessly recite the letter of the then scriptures for they knew them off by heart, but they did not understand the message contained in the letter. Two different things. And of course, the Pharisees liked to portray themselves as super holy people who didn't commit sin, or only minor discrepencies at the most. And they crushed the people with their demands, demands they did not even try and keep themselves. Such people could never understand much spiritual truth, though they thought they did. And some today are just like them. They pretend they are sinless, super holy and because they do not understand the message contained in scripture either they quote a few verses of the letter to support their assertion of sinlessness. Woe betide any new Christian who believes them, as the people were crushed in Jesus day, so they will be now also. And because they have a phariseeical attitude, they cannot either understand the true message, nor can they discern/interpret scripture when asked to do so. This is prevelant in many charismatic churches sadly

not under law said:

I will make a general point before leaving the thread, nothing to be gained debating people who have hardened hearts where sin is concerned
Some come on these websites and have read the bible extensively. They know much of the letter written in it, and consider themselves somewhat of experts in knowledge. But they only have a superficial understanding. The Pharisees of Jesus day could endlessly recite the letter of the then scriptures for they knew them off by heart, but they did not understand the message contained in the letter. Two different things. And of course, the Pharisees liked to portray themselves as super holy people who didn't commit sin, or only minor discrepencies at the most. And they crushed the people with their demands, demands they did not even try and keep themselves. Such people could never understand much spiritual truth, though they thought they did. And some today are just like them. They pretend they are sinless, super holy and because they do not understand the message contained in scripture either they quote a few verses of the letter to support their assertion of sinlessness. Woe betide any new Christian who believes them, as the people were crushed in Jesus day, so they will be now also. And because they have a phariseeical attitude, they cannot either understand the true message, nor can they discern/interpret scripture when asked to do so. This is prevelant in many charismatic churches sadly

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I'm afraid you are the one who is deceived if you believe you are free to sin. Just believe Jesus is your ticket to heaven, but don't have to obey Him. Your choice. But it is why Jesus said the main message of the Reformation, "justification by faith" alone, without holiness was dead. It is a doctrine of demons. Demons believe in God and tremble. They want nothing more than for you to sin your head off. But we cannot obey in our own strength. We must repent in order to receive the power of the Holy Spirit. It is He who makes us practice righteousness. Once you have the Holy Spirit it is very very easy to be righteous. Jesus gave us a new nature that loves to be righteous, so we just do what now comes naturally.