Can you be good without God?

Born Again2004 · May 12, 2016

Luke 18:19
As a human, I can see a lot of good in someone but that is secular.
Jesus said : John 15:5
As a Christian, we know that "all good things come from above" And the only good that God recognizes is his good work in and through us!

Eudaimonist · May 12, 2016

Albion said:
Nonsense. The idea of a supreme being--any such entity, even in theory--does not in any way require magic to be a part of it.

I am willing, but you might actually want to explain to me how I can possibly "logically exclude" a "God connection". Is there any way to do that? What evidence is required?

And what is a "God connection" if not something supernatural and thus essentially magic? You are free to explain what you think the connection is.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Albion · May 12, 2016

Eudaimonist said:
I am willing, but you might actually want to explain to me how I can possibly "logically exclude" a "God connection". Is there any way to do that?

?? I included a reference to what I called a "God connection." You responded by calling such a thing "magic." The two are entirely different concepts.

Davian · May 12, 2016

Landon Caeli said:
That depends on the reason as to why you choose to make your decisions.

Assume you do not have access to those reasons.

If you knew that I had seen a child being raped, and had the ability to interfere, yet I simply stood by, allowed it to happen, and said nothing to anyone about it, would you categorize this as "good" or "evil"?

Tinker Grey · May 12, 2016

Romans 2:14-15 said:
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

It would seem that Christians should acknowledge at least that non-believers can do good without belief.

GoldenBoy89 · May 12, 2016

Achilles6129 said:
A: No, you cannot. God is the definition of good and in order to be good without God you'd have to have good coming from outside of itself, a logical impossibility.

How did you come to the conclusion that "God is good" if the only measure you have of goodness is... whatever God says it to be? That's called painting the target around the arrow, or the Texas sharp-shooter fallacy.

God is the source of good and therefore everything that God proclaims and does is good by definition.

How would you know? Do you have a sense of moral judgment of your own? God could be doing terrible things but because he says they're good, you don't question it?

Nothing morally good can come from any source outside of God and therefore nothing can be morally good unless God defines it as such. Human beings do not define what moral goodness is; God does.

Humans, being created by God, certainly have a propensity towards violence. If you wish to define God as the absolute source of all that exists, I don't see how you can ignore all the terrible, evil things that exist.

God knows the true difference between good and evil because God is, by definition, the most intelligent being that there is. Everyone else is of less intelligence, so we should trust what God says about good and evil above everyone else.

Okay. What does God say about good and evil?

and... How do we know God said those things and not evil, fallible men?

Achilles6129 · May 12, 2016

Davian said:
If you knew that I had seen a child being raped, and had the ability to interfere, yet I simply stood by, allowed it to happen, and said nothing to anyone about it, would you categorize this as "good" or "evil"?

That depends on your reasons for standing by. Since you can't right any wrong or undo any evil that's been done, I'd have to say that you'd have to have a fairly good explanation. But since God can right wrongs, it's a bit different. God may very well have a good reason to permit evil, especially considering that he can undo its effects.

Achilles6129 · May 12, 2016

Eudaimonist said:
That doesn't really follow. If God had created human beings with at least some power for goodness

If there is any good in man, then there is God in man, since God is the definition of goodness. That would negate the gospel of Jesus Christ. However, I'm trying to not get into Biblical apolegetics on this thread.

Eudaimonist said:
(Man being created in God's image, after all),

I don't necessarily agree with this at all, but see above.

Eudaimonist said:
That's convenient. Murder, rape, genocide...if God does it, it's good by definition!

Ah, but you're missing the point. If God did it, then it wouldn't be murder, rape, or genocide, even though you might perceive it that way. And, of course, we're not here to talk about Biblical apologetics, but the Torah absolutely prohibits rape and murder, meaning that God defines himself as prohibiting rape and murder.

Eudaimonist said:
That doesn't follow. Intelligence does not guarantee correctness, and it doesn't mean that everyone else should stop thinking and questioning and having integrity.

Ah, but yes it does. God is the Supreme Being and is therefore in a better position to know about good and evil than anyone else. If you're sick, do you go see a homeless person on the street, or do you go see a doctor? Who would you trust more? Obviously the doctor, because they're in a better position to know what's going on. And in the same way, the Supreme Being would be in a better position than anyone else to know the difference between good and evil.

Achilles6129 · May 12, 2016

Tinker Grey said:
It would seem that Christians should acknowledge at least that non-believers can do good without belief.

If that's true, then they did good without God, which is logically impossible, since God is the definition of good. That would destroy all of Biblical theology. I would also contest your interpretation of Rom. 2:14-15.

Eryk · May 12, 2016

Achilles6129 said:
If that's true, then they did good without God, which is logically impossible, since God is the definition of good. That would destroy all of Biblical theology. I would also contest your interpretation of Rom. 2:14-15.

Doing good without God and doing good without belief are two different things. Our belief doesn't make God exist. And God can act providentially in the lives of those who don't believe.

Achilles6129 · May 12, 2016

Eryk said:
Doing good without God and doing good without belief are two different things. Our belief doesn't make God exist. And God can act providentially in the lives of those who don't believe.

So do you believe you can do good without God, or no?

Davian · May 12, 2016

Achilles6129 said:
That depends on your reasons for standing by. Since you can't right any wrong or undo any evil that's been done, I'd have to say that you'd have to have a fairly good explanation. But since God can right wrongs, it's a bit different. God may very well have a good reason to permit evil, especially considering that he can undo its effects.

What you just described is situational ethics.

What you said in your original post was everything that God proclaims and does is good by definition, which makes the rape scenario I described "good", as this is something that your god (assuming it exists) does all the time.

Which is it now?

Davian · May 12, 2016

Achilles6129 said:
...
And, of course, we're not here to talk about Biblical apologetics, but the Torah absolutely prohibits rape and murder, meaning that God defines himself as prohibiting rape and murder.

Yet, [hypothetically] stands idly by watching it all happen.

quatona · May 12, 2016

Achilles6129 said:
However, I'm trying to not get into Biblical apolegetics on this thread.

So which God are you talking about?

Achilles6129 · May 12, 2016

Davian said:
What you just described is situational ethics.

What you said in your original post was everything that God proclaims and does is good by definition, which makes the rape scenario I described "good", as this is something that your god (assuming it exists) does all the time.

Which is it now?

Except that you're not God as I said earlier, meaning that your powers are vastly limited.

Achilles6129 · May 12, 2016

quatona said:
So which God are you talking about?

The Judaeo-Christian one. We're prohibited by forum rules from talking about apologetics.

Davian · May 12, 2016

Achilles6129 said:
Except that you're not God as I said earlier, meaning that your powers are vastly limited.

As are your god's, apparently.

Power Shortage

Davian
Sep 18, 2015
3

If "good" or "evil" depends on who is doing it and why, then what you are describing is situation ethics. That is not what you described in your OP.

Which is it?

Eryk · May 12, 2016

Achilles6129 said:
So do you believe you can do good without God, or no?

Of course not. God is the source of our existence. We are nothing apart from him. But non-believers can do good without having religious beliefs. The goodness that anyone does is a divine force, setting off a chain of events that affect the lives of people they will never meet. It's a service to humanity that makes life more bearable for others and it shows us all that life is worth living. And all of this is damnable because the people who did these things didn't have the correct theology? The God I believe in can't be put in a theological bottle anyway. That would be insulting. So we are all thinking about these transcendent, spiritual issues with clumsiness and ignorance, so no one can judge how other people think about these things. How about a little humility?

quatona · May 12, 2016

Achilles6129 said:
The Judaeo-Christian one. We're prohibited by forum rules from talking about apologetics.

So creating a thread like this appears to be pointless.

Achilles6129 · May 12, 2016

Eryk said:
Of course not. God is the source of our existence. We are nothing apart from him. But non-believers can do good without having religious beliefs. The goodness that anyone does is a divine force, setting off a chain of events that affect the lives of people they will never meet. It's a service to humanity that makes life more bearable for others and it shows us all that life is worth living. And all of this is damnable because the people who did these things didn't have the correct theology? The God I believe in can't be put in a theological bottle anyway. That would be insulting. So we are all thinking about these transcendent, spiritual issues with clumsiness and ignorance, so no one can judge how other people think about these things. How about a little humility?

So God is in man, then?

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