Can you be good without God?

[Achilles6129]

A: No, you cannot. God is the definition of good and in order to be good without God you'd have to have good coming from outside of itself, a logical impossibility. God is the source of good and therefore everything that God proclaims and does is good by definition. Nothing morally good can come from any source outside of God and therefore nothing can be morally good unless God defines it as such. Human beings do not define what moral goodness is; God does.

God knows the true difference between good and evil because God is, by definition, the most intelligent being that there is. Everyone else is of less intelligence, so we should trust what God says about good and evil above everyone else.

Thoughts?

 

[SkyWriting]

A: No, you cannot. God is the definition of good and in order to be good without God you'd have to have good coming from outside of itself, a logical impossibility. God is the source of good and therefore everything that God proclaims and does is good by definition. Nothing morally good can come from any source outside of God and therefore nothing can be morally good unless God defines it as such. Human beings do not define what moral goodness is; God does.

God knows the true difference between good and evil because God is, by definition, the most intelligent being that there is. Everyone else is of less intelligence, so we should trust what God says about good and evil above everyone else.

Thoughts?

You already answered your question.

 

[Achilles6129]

Everyone is allowed to express their opinion and provide input. That includes myself, of course.

 

[Davian]

A: No, you cannot. God is the definition of good and in order to be good without God you'd have to have good coming from outside of itself, a logical impossibility. God is the source of good and therefore everything that God proclaims and does is good by definition. Nothing morally good can come from any source outside of God and therefore nothing can be morally good unless God defines it as such. Human beings do not define what moral goodness is; God does.

God knows the true difference between good and evil because God is, by definition, the most intelligent being that there is. Everyone else is of less intelligence, so we should trust what God says about good and evil above everyone else.

Thoughts?

If you knew that I had seen a child being raped, and had the ability to interfere, yet I simply stood by, allowed it to happen, and said nothing to anyone about it, would you categorize this as "good" or "evil"?

 

[Landon Caeli]

If you knew that I had seen a child being raped, and had the ability to interfere, yet I simply stood by, allowed it to happen, and said nothing to anyone about it, would you categorize this as "good" or "evil"?

That depends on the reason as to why you choose to make your decisions.

 

[quatona]

A: No, you cannot. God is the definition of good and in order to be good without God you'd have to have good coming from outside of itself, a logical impossibility. God is the source of good and therefore everything that God proclaims and does is good by definition. Nothing morally good can come from any source outside of God and therefore nothing can be morally good unless God defines it as such. Human beings do not define what moral goodness is; God does.

God knows the true difference between good and evil because God is, by definition, the most intelligent being that there is. Everyone else is of less intelligence, so we should trust what God says about good and evil above everyone else.

Thoughts?

I have a serious problem with every argument that involves defining entities into existence, sorry.
It gets even worse when you define "the definition of..." into existence.

 

[Eudaimonist]

God is the definition of good

Well, that's how some Christians try to define good. It's not universally seen that way.

and in order to be good without God you'd have to have good coming from outside of itself, a logical impossibility.

That doesn't really follow. If God had created human beings with at least some power for goodness (Man being created in God's image, after all), then goodness could arise from human beings simply because they are human beings. The ultimate explanation for that goodness might be God (from within a Christian worldview), but human beings would still have a human power for goodness.

God is the source of good and therefore everything that God proclaims and does is good by definition.

That's convenient. Murder, rape, genocide...if God does it, it's good by definition!

I don't think that you really mean that it's good by definition. What you mean is that God is like a spigot out of which only goodness flows. That doesn't make what comes out good by definition, but good by one's understanding of the situation.

Nothing morally good can come from any source outside of God and therefore nothing can be morally good unless God defines it as such.

More defining? Murder, rape, and theft are good if God defines them that way?

Human beings do not define what moral goodness is; God does.

I understand that you believe this. You just seem to be arguing that you're right because you've chosen the premises in which you're right.

God knows the true difference between good and evil because God is, by definition, the most intelligent being that there is.

More definitions...coming from theologians...who are human beings.

Everyone else is of less intelligence, so we should trust what God says about good and evil above everyone else.

That doesn't follow. Intelligence does not guarantee correctness, and it doesn't mean that everyone else should stop thinking and questioning and having integrity.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[DogmaHunter]

A: No, you cannot. God is the definition of good and in order to be good without God you'd have to have good coming from outside of itself, a logical impossibility. God is the source of good and therefore everything that God proclaims and does is good by definition. Nothing morally good can come from any source outside of God and therefore nothing can be morally good unless God defines it as such. Human beings do not define what moral goodness is; God does.

'divine command theory' is a morally bankrupt idea.

What you are describing here has nothing to do with moral behaviour and everything with mere obedience to a perceived authority.

God knows the true difference between good and evil because God is, by definition, the most intelligent being that there is. Everyone else is of less intelligence, so we should trust what God says about good and evil above everyone else.

Thoughts?

My thoughts?

Quite simple: your religious preaching and beliefs are irrelevant in discussions about ethics and morals as they pertain to society and human behaviour.

When one argues about wheter or not a certain action is a moral one, one requires to actually provide some form of reasoning.

Merely declaring "god says so", is not such a reason. That's merely an assertion, which is faith-based, of all things.

"obedience" is not a moral compass.

 

[Moral Orel]

That doesn't really follow. If God had created human beings with at least some power for goodness (Man being created in God's image, after all), then goodness could arise from human beings simply because they are human beings. The ultimate explanation for that goodness might be God (from within a Christian worldview), but human beings would still have a human power for goodness.

Ooh, that's good! I never thought about that.

Now just apply what we learned from the Tower of Babel, that "nothing will be impossible" for us humans if we all work together, and we don't need God to be good anymore. Thanks, The Bible!

 

[Larniavc]

You can be good without the Christian god.

I am, most days.

 

[Eryk]

Can we be [essentially contested concept] without an [essentially contested concept]? Oh man this is a tough one. Let's straighten the whole thing out with a book that has mutually irreconcilable interpretations. Well that was easy. Who's buying drinks?

The answer is, there is no answer agreed upon by everyone, on any topic. Tyrants try to settle arguments with bullets and thumbscrews, but that solution doesn't last long because people are going to keep on thinking and disagreeing, about everything. It never comes to an end.

I'm not saying that reality is not objective. It may well be the case that objective moral facts exist. But we will never fully or finally get to this truth in discourse, because of cognitive biases, and because every idea is questioned in the act of observing it. Observing is evaluating and questioning, and if we stopped doing that we wouldn't be human anymore.

The concept of justice is one political experiment after another in history, and it seems like democracy is winning the argument all around the world. But elections and institutions can be bought by the oligarchy. The electorate can be manipulated by demagogues. This puts democracy in question at the historical moment when the matter seemed settled.

The concept of goodness in the personal sphere has its own difficulties. What is the difference between helping and interfering in the lives of others "for their own good"? When is violence permissible?

We cannot make these questions disappear with a magic word like "God". Historically, that word has only raised more questions. It behooves religious people to accept this.

 

[Locutus]

A: No, you cannot. God is the definition of good and in order to be good without God you'd have to have good coming from outside of itself, a logical impossibility. God is the source of good and therefore everything that God proclaims and does is good by definition. Nothing morally good can come from any source outside of God and therefore nothing can be morally good unless God defines it as such. Human beings do not define what moral goodness is; God does.

God knows the true difference between good and evil because God is, by definition, the most intelligent being that there is. Everyone else is of less intelligence, so we should trust what God says about good and evil above everyone else.

Thoughts?

The implications of this are huge, as other posters have highlighted. I suspect you haven't considered them.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

God is the definition of good...

Thoughts?

My thought is that nonsensical statements don't deserve to be considered.

Saying that an abstract concept can be defined as the properties of a supernatural being is as ridiculous as saying that the color orange can be defined as the taste of a hamburger.

 

[Albion]

You can be good without the Christian god.

I am, most days.

But does performing a good act make the doer good himself? Or is it just that something which is good in itself took place?

 

[Eudaimonist]

But does performing a good act make the doer good himself?

Yes, it does.

We need to add some qualifiers. We can say that it must be done from habit (one's character) and from genuine intent (no ulterior motives). Perhaps there are others.

However, I don't think that we should regard this as impossible to human beings.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Albion]

Yes, it does.

That's one answer, but I think a case can be made for the opposite POV.

We need to add some qualifiers. We can say that it must be done from habit (one's character) and from genuine intent (no ulterior motives).

All right, but if you add those provisos, you can't logically exclude the God connection as well.

 

[Eudaimonist]

All right, but if you add those provisos, you can't logically exclude the God connection as well.

I'm not trying to exclude magic, because that's impossible. Magic can always be used to explain anything.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Albion]

I'm not trying to exclude magic, because that's impossible. Magic can always be used to explain anything.

Nobody was including magic.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Nobody was including magic.

That what speaking of a "God connection" amounts to. How can anyone "logically exclude" such a thing? Where would one begin?

It wasn't my purpose to do anything like that. I was just suggesting how good acts may be taken as productive and expressive of a good person.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Albion]

That what speaking of a "God connection" amounts to.

Nonsense. The idea of a supreme being--any such entity, even in theory--does not in any way require magic to be a part of it. But if you don't want to entertain ideas other than your own, even in a friendly discussion about the nature of good works, I'm willing to exit.