Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

[The Barbarian]

One way to clear that up. Do you believe in Adam and Eve being created by God one day or not?

All of us were created by God on one day. The issue is, you don't approve of the way He did it.

Do you believe God formed a man from the ground and breathed life into him or not?

That matches His earlier statement that the Earth brought forth living things. The difference is, He directly breathes a soul into each of us. You've confused the figurative nature of the creation story for a literal history. You don't accept His word on this because it doesn't please you. The good news is, God doesn't care if you approve; your salvation is not lost if you think He just poofed things into being.

Do you believe He walked and talked in a garden with him after that or not?

Yep.

Do you believe that at one time before God made the woman from a rib or bone from the man, that there were no women on earth at all?

Since a being made from the body of a man would be male, the text indicates that this is figurative.

In other words Adam was not born, but formed and created?

Since the text itself says that it's figurative, your addition is incompatible with His word. Why not just accept it His way? You can be a YE creationist and be as Christian as the rest of us. But I think you'd have a better relationship with God if you just accepted it as it is.

 

[The Barbarian]

Martin Luther, for example, wanted to remove the Book of James, pointing out that it contradicted his new doctrine of sola scriptura. He failed at that one, but got some others removed.

So God used Luther on that one.

Oh, the Book of James is still there. Thought you knew.

Epistle of James - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's worth reading. God was right, and Luther was wrong on this one.

 

[Jipsah]

So not real then according to you. Keep us posted on what we need to believe and what we should reject then, I guess.

I'd start with the Gospels, then the New Testament, then the Gospels again, then the Gospels some more. That's where the Christian Faith comes from, innit?

I read the Old Testament at my leisure, as history.

 

[Jipsah]

Guess a little bird told us different stories. You admitted not believing in Adam or Eve (as Jesus did and the apostles also did). Not sure how you would recognize faith in the bible?

How many people ar saved by a belief in Adam and Eve?

 

[Jipsah]

They might be able to post one of these errors God made.

God didn't. And AFAIK, God didn't write down a sinple word after Hehanded off the Tablets on Sinai.

Or should we just pretend there are some without any evidence?

There are certainly translation errors. The most common errors are where people simply misunderstand Scripture, or willfully "interpret" it as something other than what it says to preserve a favorite doctrine.

So God used Luther on that one. So? We need to trust that God got the right books in there. That's what it's all about

Hmmm.. Ponder this: If God isn't the author or confusion, why do almost no two people agree on what the Revelation means? And why does our Lord in the Revelation deem so very unlike our Lord in the Gospels?

 

[Jipsah]

It's worth reading. God was right, and Luther was wrong on this one.

I think Luther was right about the Revelation.

 

[The Barbarian]

I think Luther was right about the Revelation.

I have a lot of trouble reading Revelation. Lots of gemmatria therein, and I suspect a lot of encoded things for the insiders only.

 

[The Barbarian]

How many people ar saved by a belief in Adam and Eve?

Today's winner.

 

[truthpls]

As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
R 9:33

So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who relies on it will never be stricken with panic.
Is 28:16

And again, Isaiah says, “The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; in him the Gentiles will hope.
R 15:12

In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious.
Is 11:10

What do these examples tell you about the precision/perfection of the text?

I see nothing wrong with any. If we take details from each we get a fuller picture.

 

[truthpls]

How many people ar saved by a belief in Adam and Eve?

People are born to die because of them. But we should believe they existed. No one has a right to extract the record of beginnings from the bible

 

[truthpls]

God didn't. And AFAIK, God didn't write down a sinple word after Hehanded off the Tablets on Sinai.

He inspired plenty. God also spoke personally (Jesus) and had folks write that down and promised to send it from heaven, despite some folks not remembering things.

There are certainly translation errors. The most common errors are where people simply misunderstand Scripture, or willfully "interpret" it as something other than what it says to preserve a favorite doctrine.

I look at several translations sometimes to get a fuller picture of the meaning of a verse. I do not recall any contradictions. Ever.

Hmmm.. Ponder this: If God isn't the author or confusion, why do almost no two people agree on what the Revelation means?

Millions agree on the basics. The ones who cannot understand it probably don't believe it or are not familiar with other bible prophesies, or would prefer to wave it all away using an excuse that some disagree on some parts of it...etc etc. The words are not hidden but open.

And why does our Lord in the Revelation deem so very unlike our Lord in the Gospels?

To who? One reason some might be confused is because the Revelation of Jesus deals with Jesus in the future, and the time He rules and judges and His wrath etc. His first coming was different.

 

[truthpls]

Martin Luther, for example, wanted to remove the Book of James, pointing out that it contradicted his new doctrine of sola scriptura. He failed at that one, but got some others removed.


Oh, the Book of James is still there. Thought you knew.

Epistle of James - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's worth reading. God was right, and Luther was wrong on this one.

Well if he got some removed I guess God used Him to some extent. Being used by God does not mean being a dictator or sole arbiter of all doctrine and wisdom. It could mean some sinner who messed a lot of things up, got a few things right.

 

[The Barbarian]

Well if he got some removed I guess God used Him to some extent. Being used by God does not mean being a dictator or sole arbiter of all doctrine and wisdom. It could mean some sinner who messed a lot of things up, got a few things right.

So God isn't perfect, just pretty good? How do you know that Luther was wrong about James and right about the other books?

 

[truthpls]

So God isn't perfect, just pretty good? How do you know that Luther was wrong about James and right about the other books?

Because God must have made sure the book was compiled the way it should be. If Luther had some small say in that, then I guess God used him. God using imperfect men does not make Him imperfect.

 

[trophy33]

I see nothing wrong with any. If we take details from each we get a fuller picture.

Person A says X.
Person B says that A said Y (and presents it as a quotation of A).

Logically, both cannot be right.

---

Therefore, the biblical inspiration or preservation is provably not verbal plenary.

When we established this, we have no need to defend Genesis 1, Genesis 2 or genealogies or the flood or Jonah or anything similar to be literal and with word after word precision.

 

[truthpls]

Person A says X.
Person B says that A said Y (and presents it as a quotation of A).

Logically, both cannot be right.

Be exalted, O God, above the highest heavens!
May your glory shine over all the earth.
Psalm 57:5 - NLT
Be exalted, O God, above the heavens.
Let your glory be over all the earth.
Psalm 57:5 - NRSV
Be exalted, God, above the heavens!
Let your glory be above all the earth!
Psalm 57:5 - WEB
Be exalted, O God, above the heavens;
let your glory shine over all the earth.
Psalm 57:6 - NCB

Different translations all say the same thing. Light shines through different prisms in different ways but it is the same light.

---

Therefore, the biblical inspiration or preservation is provably not verbal plenary.

What matters is if it is from God. As the translations above, a slightly different take on the heart of the matter does not change the spirit or gist of what was said.

When we established this, we have no need to defend Genesis 1, Genesis 2 or genealogies or the flood or Jonah or anything similar to be literal and with word after word precision.

The flood and other things in Genesis were repeated and confirmed elsewhere in the bible. That is a defence. Trying to inject confusion and imagined contradiction into Scripture is not valid or an excuse to disrespect and disbelieve it.

 

[Diamond72]

Anyone who's not motivated to harmonize them isn't going to follow

People can not follow me anyways. I was in a coma for a week and when I came out the doctor wanted to send me to rehab. He said I jumped from subject to subject. They do not see the connections that I see. My brother said I have always been that way all of my life. So they sent me home for my wife to take care of me. She was the one that did the CPR that kept me alive.

 

[Diamond72]

Logically, both cannot be right.

The Bible has as many as 100 level of understanding. None of them cancel each other out.

 

[Jipsah]

The flood and other things in Genesis were repeated and confirmed elsewhere in the bible. That is a defence. Trying to inject confusion and imagined contradiction into Scripture is not valid or an excuse to disrespect and disbelieve it.

I have a simple solution that works for me. The OT is what the Jews believed.

Other than a general sense of God having designed (yeah, I know y'all don't think He designed anything, He just magiced into existence) but I couldn't conceivably care any less) everything to work as He intended. It's interesting history, but it means little to me, because in the next stage...

...GOD SHOWS UP IN PERSON! THAT'S THE IMPORTANT PART! He comes to set everything right that isn't. How long it took God to create the universe isn't relevant, it's what He said and did while was here in the Flesh that's important! It isn't about Old or Young Earth, it's about CHRIST, AND HIM CRUCIFIED! No unbeliever is gonna care tuppence if you start telling him about God's alleged work schedules, global floods, Adam & Eve, burning bushes,etc. Why should they care, and how are you gonna persuade them that stuff is true anyway?

But everybody, on some level, knows that this world is out of whack, and if most us us know it, it's because there has to be some "normal" that we're getting something wrong. Ad that's what our Lord came to set right.

Short form IT'S ALL (as in ALL ALL ALL ALL ALL ALL ALL ALL ALL ALL Got it?) about Jesus Christ, and His Gospel,and how we, as His creaturs, are supposed to live.

Here's our summary of the OT:
Matthew 22
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Who said that? GOD HIMSELF! The age of the universe didn't enter into it. At all. "But we have to get that right." Really? See above. "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” " All? Yes, dadgummit, all!

Stuff from the OT is interesting history, and worth knowing, but it is not the basis of our Faith. The basis of our Faith is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. End of.

 

[Jipsah]

People are born to die because of them.

And?

But we should believe they existed.

Because?

No one has a right to extract the record of beginnings from the bible

OK, I won't. But if I'm trying to persuade someone that the Christian Faith is true, I don't bother with Adam and Eve, or Creation, dietary laws, or, in fact, much of anything from the OT other than than the existence of God. I tell them that God came Himself to set everything right that currently isn't. Obviously theirs more to it than that, but that's the starting point.

People are born to die because of them.

And to the man or woman on the street, so what? You've just told them something about people they don't believe existed, and that'we're to be blamed for something those people did. Not a good starting place, is it?

But we should believe they existed.

Wy?

No one has a right to extract the record of beginnings from the bible

OK, I won't. If I'm about persuading someone that the Bible is true, it's to teach them about Jesus, not Adam Eve, or Noah, or Abrahan, or Moses. Why muddy the waters? Tell tham about Jesus, who came here to save His Creation from their own destructive errors. Gotta keep it simple and to the point.