Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

[Job 33:6]

Look at, don't argue with me. I didn't invent this theory. Go argue with Darwin or something.

You just don't understand the subject. It's not the theory I'm arguing against, it's your misunderstanding of it.

 

[Job 33:6]

That group of birds, sure

And that group of course is made of individuals, right?

 

[olgamc]

And that group of course is made of individuals, right?

Of course

 

[Job 33:6]

Of course

Ok, and those individuals all have mothers....right?

 

[olgamc]

Ok, and those individuals all have mothers....right?

Yes LOL

 

[Job 33:6]

Yes LOL

Ok. So those members of that new species, they were all born of mothers. That's where members of New species come from. They are born.

 

[olgamc]

Ok. So those members of that new species, they were all born of mothers. That's where members of New species come from. They are born.

That's were individuals come from, correct. A species is not an individual.

 

[Job 33:6]

That's were individuals come from, correct. A species is not an individual.

But members of a species are individuals, right?

 

[Job 33:6]

But members of a species are individuals, right?

And a species is made out of individuals. Can't have a population without individuals.

 

[olgamc]

And a species is made out of individuals. Can't have a population without individuals.

A species is just a group of individuals that can interbreed. So an individual’s mother belongs to the same species as the individual.

In order for a new species to evolve, three things must exist:
1. A group of individuals
2. A division within the group such that members of each sub-group cannot breed with members of the other sub-group
3. Different environmental pressures on the two sub-groups over a very long (relative to their breeding speed) period of time.

If you can’t understand that, I can’t help you. So go ahead, say what you want, believe what you want, but just know that the thing you believe in is your own theory, not the accepted theory of evolution.

 

[Job 33:6]

A species is just group of individuals that can interbreed. So an individual’s mother belongs to the same species as the individual.

That's not actually true either. Lions and tigers can interbreed, or if you don't like that example, grizzley and polar bears can interbreed. But we don't usually think of these animals as the same species. Depending on who you ask, it could be the case, but not always.

But regardless, we already have established that it's the members of the group that are of the new species, not their mothers. If you want, we can include their mothers too in the group, in which case it would just be the grandmother's that are of the original species. And you can't go back forever, otherwise you would never have a new species because the mother's would always be of the same species as their children.

 

[Job 33:6]

That's not actually true either. Lions and tigers can interbreed, or if you don't like that example, grizzley and polar bears can interbreed. But we don't usually think of these animals as the same species. Depending on who you ask, it could be the case, but not always.

But regardless, we already have established that it's the members of the group that are of the new species, not their mothers. If you want, we can include their mothers too in the group, in which case it would just be the grandmother's that are of the original species. And you can't go back forever, otherwise you would never have a new species because the mother's would always be of the same species as their children.

To simplify it, if mothers were always the same species as their offspring, then according to the theory, you would never have new species.

 

[olgamc]

To simplify it, if mothers were always the same species as their offspring, then according to the theory, you would never have new species.

Like I said, I can’t help you if you can’t understand that it’s a gradual process

Also, just so you know, the theory the way it is formulated does not actually contradict the biblical “each producing offspring of the same kind”. But the theory that you invented does. But of course you must have a way of twisting the words of the Bible in such a way as to justify to yourself that that’s not what the Bible says. Ok, I said it before and I will say it again, believe what you want and bara yourself a winner.

 

[Job 33:6]

Like I said, I can’t help you if you can’t understand that it’s a gradual process.

Well, and I can't help you if you don't understand that all members of a group are born of mothers. Your understanding of the subject is lacking to the extent that you can't address these very basic realities.

I mean think about it. If mothers never gave birth to individuals of another species, then members of a new species would never come into existence. And if you don't have members of a new species, then you don't have a new species.

It's pretty straightforward. And instead of acknowledging that you're wrong, you're just saying that I don't understand the subject. But, I would say, I do understand the subject. I probably understand evolution a lot better than you do. I am published in paleontology as it pertains to evolution, so I suspect that I'm more credentialed on the matter as well.

 

[Job 33:6]

Well, and I can't help you if you don't understand that all members of a group are born of mothers. Your understanding of the subject is lacking to the extent that you can't address these very basic realities.

I mean think about it. If mothers never gave birth to individuals of another species, then members of a new species would never come into existence. And if you don't have members of a new species, then you don't have a new species.

It's pretty straightforward. And instead of acknowledging that you're wrong, you're just saying that I don't understand the subject. But, I would say, I do understand the subject. I probably understand evolution a lot better than you do. I am published in paleontology as it pertains to evolution, so I suspect that I'm more credentialed on the matter as well.

Let's break this down.

1. All individuals of new species are born of mothers. (Animals don't just fall out of the sky, they are born).

2. If mothers never gave birth to members of new species, then members of a new species would never come into existence. (Animals don't just fall out of the sky, they are born, so if they aren't born, they simply don't come into existence).

3. Members of New species do exist, therefore they came from their mothers. Ie mothers give birth to members of new species.

This is really direct. And the fact that you can't accept this tells me something about your inability to be intellectually honest and open minded.

 

[olgamc]

Let's break this down.

1. All individuals of new species are born of mothers. (Animals don't just fall out of the sky, they are born).

Right

2. If mothers never gave birth to members of new species, then members of a new species would never come into existence. (Animals don't just fall out of the sky, they are born, so if they aren't born, they simply don't come into existence).

Wrong.

3. Members of New species do exist, therefore they came from their mothers. Ie mothers give birth to members of new species.

Wrong. Watch the movie again.

This is really direct. And the fact that you can't accept this tells me something about your inability to be intellectually honest and open minded.

You don’t understand gradual change.

That’s why your home is already a home when you begin creating a home. You can’t accept that an empty disorganized house is not a home, and that every little thing you do makes it a bit less empty and a bit more cozy until after many small changes what started as an empty house is gradually turned into a cozy home.

In your mind you started with a home and you ended up with a home. Right? Right. So in the video they started with a bird and they ended up with a bird. Congratulations, what did you prove?

Like I said, feel free to think whatever you like about my intelligence and honesty and open mindedness.

 

[Job 33:6]

2. If mothers never gave birth to members of new species, then members of a new species would never come into existence. (Animals don't just fall out of the sky, they are born, so if they aren't born, they simply don't come into existence).

You said this was wrong, so I would ask, if members of new species are not born of mothers, then where do you think they come from? How would members of new species come into existence, if not through birth from a mother?

 

[olgamc]

2. If mothers never gave birth to members of new species, then members of a new species would never come into existence. (Animals don't just fall out of the sky, they are born, so if they aren't born, they simply don't come into existence).

Wrong. An individual is born from a mother. A new species is not. A species is a group. A group does not have a mother. A group is not born. A group exists in the scientist's mind as a collection of individuals that share some common traits. A group is not an individual, hence it cannot be born and it does not have a mother.

You said this was wrong, so I would ask, if members of new species are not born of mothers, then where do you think they come from? How would members of new species come into existence, if not through birth from a mother?

Ok, let's say we start out with white birds. Original mother gives birth to babies that are very much like her, but one baby has a red spot on his tail. He is still very white except for that one little red spot. So he mates with other white birds, and their babies have red spots. Some have bigger spots, some have smaller spots, some have no spots at all. They go on mating with each other, and over the course of time birds with red spots are able to attract more attention because of their pretty red spot. Over the course of time, the red spot becomes more and more pronounced because individuals with more red are able to mate more. And the completely white birds, or birds with only a little bit of red, are able to mate less, so they produce fewer offspring. Over a long period of time all mothers have red tails and all of their babies have red tails, and a completely white version has disappeared from the gene pool.

But on the mainland there are predators that do not exist on the island, and who can see spots. So if the original mother's sister gives birth to a spotted baby, the baby gets eaten. Or if by some chance he survives to adulthood and mates with another white bird, their spotted kids get eaten. And so on the mainland the pure white birds have the advantage until all traces of red disappear from the gene pool.

Fast forward from the original parents to 10,000 generations later. The mainland predators died off. A red tailed bird flies to mainland. The girls all look at him and say - huh? what kind of bird is that? we don't like him.

And like I said, all of this is in the movie. So if you are asking this question, you did not understand the movie. And if you can't understand the movie, then there is nothing I can do.

 

[Job 33:6]

Ok, let's say we start out with white birds. Original mother gives birth to babies that are very much like her, but one baby has a red spot on his tail. He is still very white except for that one little red spot. So he mates with other white birds, and their babies have red spots. Some have bigger spots, some have smaller spots, some have no spots at all. They go on mating with each other, and over the course of time birds with red spots are able to attract more attention because of their pretty red spot. Over the course of time, the red spot becomes more and more pronounced because individuals with more red are able to mate more. And the completely white birds, or birds with only a little bit of red, are able to mate less, so they produce fewer offspring. Over a long period of time all mothers have red tails and all of their babies have red tails, and a completely white version has disappeared from the gene pool.

But on the mainland there are predators that do not exist on the island, and who can see spots. So if the original mother's sister gives birth to a spotted baby, the baby gets eaten. Or if by some chance he survives to adulthood and mates with another white bird, their spotted kids get eaten. And so on the mainland the pure white birds have the advantage until all traces of red disappear from the gene pool.

Fast forward from the original parents to 10,000 generations later. The mainland predators died off. A red tailed bird flies to mainland. The girls all look at him and say - huh? what kind of bird is that? we don't like him.

Sure. And that final bird with the red tail, had a mother.

Every bird you've mentioned in your analogy, has a mother. So no matter where you choose to draw the line between the old species and the new, whenever members of that new species came to be, it came through birth from a mother.

2. If mothers never gave birth to members of new species, then members of a new species would never come into existence. (Animals don't just fall out of the sky, they are born, so if they aren't born, they simply don't come into existence).

You said this was wrong, so I would ask, if members of new species are not born of mothers, then where do you think they come from? How would members of new species come into existence, if not through birth from a mother?

 

[olgamc]

Sure. And that final bird with the red tail, had a mother.

Correct. The final bird is an individual, not a species. A species is a group. Individuals have mothers. Groups include mothers.

Every bird you've mentioned in your analogy, has a mother. So no matter where you choose to draw the line between the old species and the new, whenever members of that new species came to be, it came through birth from a mother.

Sure

2. If mothers never gave birth to members of new species, then members of a new species would never come into existence. (Animals don't just fall out of the sky, they are born, so if they aren't born, they simply don't come into existence).

You said this was wrong, so I would ask, if members of new species are not born of mothers, then where do you think they come from? How would members of new species come into existence, if not through birth from a mother?

This is the part that you are not able to comprehend. Mothers of individuals are themselves individuals and they belong to the same group of individuals as their children. Groups are not individuals, groups are not born, groups don't have mothers.