Can you be cast out of heaven?

[Iakobos]

So they say angels were cast out of heaven. I thought God couldn't be in the presence of sin and yet even in his own home iniquity was found in satan? Which then spread onto a bunch of other angels. It sounds pretty crazy.

So original sin started in heaven? When satan became full of pride? Does that means it is possible to sin in heaven? Can you sin when your up there too or is free will limited so that it isn't possible? So we have less will then we had on earth? It really doesn't make sense how sin could develop there in the first place when the bible says that heaven is perfect and Holy. Or perhaps that is just my impression. Does that mean that heaven is not paradise? That it has the capacity to house sin? Could you hypothetically be cast out for cursing someone or disobeying God? Some of you would say that you wouldn't desire too but how can you know that? I mean a bunch of angels thought it was a good idea, even though they were serving God for God knows how long.

Which begs the question of why rebel? Was living up there so boring or terrible that after a few thousand years they decided they wanted better? Did all the worship and service become tiresome? It's obvious that the ones who rebelled didn't want to go on living as they had, even in heaven they were not happy. I can't help but wonder how strong the drive must have been to openly rebel against the creator of the universe after you had served him and seen the limitless power he had. Such a thing would take tremendous courage or tremendous idiocy. The odds would never be in your favour, in fact if you'd known God even as much as we do. You would realise it was impossible to win. Yet they still did it! Just what manner of life is it up there! To drive someone to war against a God? I find it absurd.

 

[Galvanized]

So they say angels were cast out of heaven. I thought God couldn't be in the presence of sin and yet even in his own home iniquity was found in satan? Which then spread onto a bunch of other angels. It sounds pretty crazy.

So original sin started in heaven? When satan became full of pride? Does that means it is possible to sin in heaven? Can you sin when your up there too or is free will limited so that it isn't possible? So we have less will then we had on earth? It really doesn't make sense how sin could develop there in the first place when the bible says that heaven is perfect and Holy. Or perhaps that is just my impression. Does that mean that heaven is not paradise? That it has the capacity to house sin? Could you hypothetically be cast out for cursing someone or disobeying God? Some of you would say that you wouldn't desire too but how can you know that? I mean a bunch of angels thought it was a good idea, even though they were serving God for God knows how long.

Which begs the question of why rebel? Was living up there so boring or terrible that after a few thousand years they decided they wanted better? Did all the worship and service become tiresome? It's obvious that the ones who rebelled didn't want to go on living as they had, even in heaven they were not happy. I can't help but wonder how strong the drive must have been to openly rebel against the creator of the universe after you had served him and seen the limitless power he had. Such a thing would take tremendous courage or tremendous idiocy. The odds would never be in your favour, in fact if you'd known God even as much as we do. You would realise it was impossible to win. Yet they still did it! Just what manner of life is it up there! To drive someone to war against a God? I find it absurd.

The problem was essentially one of vanity, which is also a disease that inflicts all of us. Satan was the greatest of all angels and thought that he could replace God on the throne. It wasn't that heaven was so terrible, it was because he wanted to be the "God" in heaven. It definitely was a stupid move. However, human beings do even stupider things on a daily basis.

Heaven itself for the born again believer will indeed be perfection. There will be no more sadness, no more pain, no more death, no more sin, most especially. Could a person choose to sin? Yes, but we will lack the sin nature that we have now. Having seen God face to face, no one will do so.

 

[drich0150]

So they say angels were cast out of heaven. I thought God couldn't be in the presence of sin and yet even in his own home iniquity was found in Satan? Which then spread onto a bunch of other angels. It sounds pretty crazy.

Perhaps that is why they were cast out. (God could not be in the presents of their sin.)

So original sin started in heaven?

"Original sin" is a doctrine used to describe the first time man stood in contrast of God's expressed will. It is not actually a tool or phrase the bible uses to describe anything. So no, not according to the Doctrine.

When Satan became full of pride?

Some time between creation and the Fall of man.

Does that means it is possible to sin in heaven?

No.

Can you sin when your up there too or is free will limited so that it isn't possible?

How do you define free will? Is it the free will described in scripture, or is it simple "freedom of choice?"

So we have less will then we had on earth?

It depends on what definition you use.

It really doesn't make sense how sin could develop there in the first place when the bible says that heaven is perfect and Holy.

Book Chapter and verse?

Or perhaps that is just my impression. Does that mean that heaven is not paradise?

How do you define paradise? Muslims use that word, and by their definition Heaven is not the same place.

That it has the capacity to house sin?

Again that is why Lucifer was cast out.

Could you hypothetically be cast out for cursing someone or disobeying God?

You do know that, when we die and are resurrected our place will not be in heaven? But, the new earth right?

Some of you would say that you wouldn't desire too but how can you know that?

Because it is in this life that you choose to adopt God's Expressed will in place of your own for the next.

Which begs the question of why rebel?

Because they thought they could do better.

Was living up there so boring or terrible that after a few thousand years they decided they wanted better?

The grass is always greener, if you never been on the other side of the fence. That is why we have been given this brief life, so we know and live the wage of sin.

Did all the worship and service become tiresome?

apparently, or they thought they could simply do better for themselves than God could provide.

It's obvious that the ones who rebelled didn't want to go on living as they had, even in heaven they were not happy. I can't help but wonder how strong the drive must have been to openly rebel against the creator of the universe after you had served him and seen the limitless power he had. Such a thing would take tremendous courage or tremendous idiocy.

I agree. This fact is also what I point out when people ask why God allowed sin into the world. Or, Why bad things happen to good people.

The odds would never be in your favor, in fact if you'd known God even as much as we do. You would realize it was impossible to win. Yet they still did it! Just what manner of life is it up there! To drive someone to war against a God? I find it absurd.

Again that is why we have been given this life and "Free will" so we will not spend eternity wondering what it would be like living outside of the expressed will of God.

 

[Iakobos]

The problem was essentially one of vanity, which is also a disease that inflicts all of us. Satan was the greatest of all angels and thought that he could replace God on the throne. It wasn't that heaven was so terrible, it was because he wanted to be the "God" in heaven. It definitely was a stupid move. However, human beings do even stupider things on a daily basis.

Heaven itself for the born again believer will indeed be perfection. There will be no more sadness, no more pain, no more death, no more sin, most especially. Could a person choose to sin? Yes, but we will lack the sin nature that we have now. Having seen God face to face, no one will do so.

I think as far as stupid moves go, trying to overthrow the creator of the universe takes the cake lol. Even more so when your supposedly some super intelligent being who's been around him for ages. Utterly absurd but for arguement sake i'll go with it. How can you say there will be no more sin? Is heaven already marred with sin? Is that why God wants to create a new heaven in revelation? Having seen God face to face doesn't seem to be much a deterrant, unless you think that none of the angels ever saw God face to face? I mean i'm pretty sure satan has on a few occasions. Book of job for one.

 

[Iakobos]

..

 

[Iakobos]

1

Perhaps that is why they were cast out. (God could not be in the presents of their sin.)

So were they cast out immediately? Is there a time limit or something lol

No.


Really? So i can't curse in heaven or become prideful or angry?


How do you define free will? Is it the free will described in scripture, or is it simple "freedom of choice?"



I mean having the ability to sin whether through my words, intent, feelings, thinkings. Exercising my free will to do good or bad. If i can't behave like a jerk and can only think pure and holy thoughts then isn't my free will more limited then it was while on earth?


Book Chapter and verse?



I can offer no such verse. I always assumed it was sinless because God says he can't be in the presence of sin.



How do you define paradise? Muslims use that word, and by their definition Heaven is not the same place.


Paradise and heaven to me is the same thing. I define it as sinless, the ideal living environment.



You do know that, when we die and are resurrected our place will not be in heaven? But, the new earth right?

oh, well i have heard that before but i hear so many different interpretations that i don't know what to believe. In any case, does that mean you can be cast out from the new earth?


Because it is in this life that you choose to adopt God's Expressed will in place of your own for the next.

ok but how do you know, does the bible clearly say this? Or are you implying that i will lack the ability to do my own will?

Because they thought they could do better.


OK, they rebelled against God of the universe because they thought they could do better. They can't even create life! Or can they? How idiotic would you have to be to buy into such thinkings? I just can't get past it, too absurd.



The grass is always greener, if you never been on the other side of the fence. That is why we have been given this brief life, so we know and live the wage of sin.


So they were ignorant of the wages of sin? How could you be held accountable for something you did not understand?




Again that is why we have been given this life and "Free will" so we will not spend eternity wondering what it would be like living outside of the expressed will of God.


If anyone was living in the expressed will of God i would think it was that lot. I mean they visually saw him,heard him and served him. Still wasn't enough though! To think that anything could have the capacity NOT to be satisfied with God says a lot. He created them knowing He would not keep them happy even in His presence, very flawed. How much more flawed are we then when we are not even in contact as they were. Of course we will sin every second of every day! The entire thing seems like a twisted game.

 

[Question.Everything]

deleted

 

[Iakobos]

deleted

well that sucks, i was curious to read what you had said.

 

[chris4243]

The problem was essentially one of vanity, which is also a disease that inflicts all of us. Satan was the greatest of all angels and thought that he could replace God on the throne. It wasn't that heaven was so terrible, it was because he wanted to be the "God" in heaven. It definitely was a stupid move. However, human beings do even stupider things on a daily basis.

Indeed. For example, here you are thinking yourself to be so much cleverer than the greatest of all angels.

 

[Question.Everything]

well that sucks, i was curious to read what you had said.

I'm technically a "non-christian". By that term, I can't comment on another non-christian's thread without breaking the rules of the forum.

 

[Iakobos]

I'm technically a "non-christian". By that term, I can't comment on another non-christian's thread without breaking the rules of the forum.

So we're both seekers then. They must fear the thought of us uniting in a thread lol.

 

[Iakobos]

Indeed. For example, here you are thinking yourself to be so much cleverer than the greatest of all angels.

HAHA

 

[Galvanized]

I think as far as stupid moves go, trying to overthrow the creator of the universe takes the cake lol. Even more so when your supposedly some super intelligent being who's been around him for ages. Utterly absurd but for arguement sake i'll go with it. How can you say there will be no more sin? Is heaven already marred with sin? Is that why God wants to create a new heaven in revelation? Having seen God face to face doesn't seem to be much a deterrant, unless you think that none of the angels ever saw God face to face? I mean i'm pretty sure satan has on a few occasions. Book of job for one.

You said it was incredibly stupid for Satan to disobey God, "absurd" even and therefore unlikely. And then you act like it is impossible for someone not to sin since "seeing God face to face" wasn't much of a deterrent. You seem to want it both ways. But to answer your question, the Bible does not mention any believer ever sinning again after death. God knows the future. Ergo, it doesn't appear anyone repeats the same mistake again that started the whole mess to begin with.

I recommend reading the Bible to get a better idea for yourself. Start with the Gospel of John, KJV only (only because I prefer its beauty), and then you can work your way down to Revelation. Or maybe research the Prophecies in the OT that predicted Christ as well.

 

[Galvanized]

Indeed. For example, here you are thinking yourself to be so much cleverer than the greatest of all angels.

I never claimed anything like that. You might have me confused with the grammar poster before he deleted his post.

 

[Iakobos]

You said it was incredibly stupid for Satan to disobey God, "absurd" even and therefore unlikely. And then you act like it is impossible for someone not to sin since "seeing God face to face" wasn't much of a deterrent. You seem to want it both ways. But to answer your question, the Bible does not mention any believer ever sinning again after death. God knows the future. Ergo, it doesn't appear anyone repeats the same mistake again that started the whole mess to begin with.

I recommend reading the Bible to get a better idea for yourself. Start with the Gospel of John, KJV only (only because I prefer its beauty), and then you can work your way down to Revelation. Or maybe research the Prophecies in the OT that predicted Christ as well.

Umm, why can't i have it both ways? On one hand satan is absurd to try and overthrow God. Also it is still possible to sin even after seeing Him as satan clearly shows. I never said it was impossible for someone not to sin after seeing God, only that it wasn't much a deterrant. If that were the case then i assume a whole lot more angels would have fallen too, like michael and gabriel. Makes sense enough for me.

Just cause the bible doesn't mention people sinning after death, doesn't mean it couldn't happen! I wouldn't be so sure about the repeating mistakes thing, we are not all god's after all, possibility! I'm familiar with the bible, the majority of the time it is the bible that gives me these ideas. I'm not too familiar with prophecies though, they are interpreted in a lot of ways, confusing. What i really need is the Holy Spirit to light my way, maybe then i'd understand as many christians claim too.

 

[Galvanized]

Just cause the bible doesn't mention people sinning after death, doesn't mean it couldn't happen!

It does if it says there will be "no more death", nor sorrow, nor any type of pain.

Revelation 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

If someone sins again, there would again be pain, and they would die the second death (a separation of the soul from God) as they're plopped into hell. But I guess maybe you'll find out the best. As you're burning, keep an eye out for any new arrivals. At that point, I'll concede defeat in the debate.

 

[Iakobos]

It does if it says there will be "no more death", nor sorrow, nor any type of pain.

Revelation 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

If someone sins again, there would again be pain, and they would die the second death (a separation of the soul from God) as they're plopped into hell. But I guess maybe you'll find out the best. As you're burning, keep an eye out for any new arrivals. At that point, I'll concede defeat in the debate.

Ahhh "for the wages of sin is death." Perhaps the bible is only relevant while on earth, perhaps there will be a new set of laws then. Haha your a funny guy, but in a scary and disturbing way. Despite my ability to comeback with some horrible foreboding of my own, i will do as Jesus would have done and turn the other cheek. Be blessed brother.

 

[Galvanized]

Ahhh "for the wages of sin is death." Perhaps the bible is only relevant while on earth, perhaps there will be a new set of laws then. Haha your a funny guy, but in a scary and disturbing way. Despite my ability to comeback with some horrible foreboding of my own, i will do as Jesus would have done and turn the other cheek. Be blessed brother.

If you are going to debate what the Bible teaches, you have to know the Bible. There is no basis for this statement within the Bible. You basically looked at a scripture and said it wasn't true in a debate about what the Bible teaches. Completely illogical. You are free to believe whatever you like, but it's irritating to be lied to by someone who only wishes to mock, and not even in an educated way either. I'd turn the other cheek if you were somewhat better at what you do. Be inventive, change it up a little, catch us by surprise.

 

[Iakobos]

If you are going to debate what the Bible teaches, you have to know the Bible. There is no basis for this statement within the Bible. You basically looked at a scripture and said it wasn't true in a debate about what the Bible teaches. Completely illogical. You are free to believe whatever you like, but it's irritating to be lied to by someone who only wishes to mock, and not even in an educated way either. I'd turn the other cheek if you were somewhat better at what you do. Be inventive, change it up a little, catch us by surprise.

Come now, i said perhaps and made no sure statement on anything. You are trying to create arguement over my obvious speculation. In any case, you should turn the other cheek whether i am better or not.

 

[Galvanized]

Come now, i said perhaps and made no sure statement on anything. You are trying to create arguement over my obvious speculation. In any case, you should turn the other cheek whether i am better or not.

It wasn't your silly speculations that irritated me, but your mocking of Christians. It irritates me when Christians, in an argument, end it by saying "God bless you" when they didn't mean it. It irritates me just the same when someone who is obviously mocking the Bible talks about the "holy spirit" and calls me "brother" as if he is some kind of a believer or a seeker. Blunt honesty is always more honorable than games such as this.