Can women talk about Jesus and the gospel?

[NathChristian]

Hi guys
1 Timothy 2:11-15 says women should be quiet.

Does it mean that women can't write books about christ or women can't have a youtube channel about bible teachings?

Thanks

 

[JackRT]

Hi guys
1 Timothy 2:11-15 says women should be quiet.

Does it mean that women can't write books about christ or women can't have a youtube channel about bible teachings?

Thanks

The issue of womens' role in the church is not as clear cut as some people would want to think. The letters of Paul, which date to the middle of the first century AD, provide some clues. For example, Paul greets Prisca, Junia, Julia, and Nereus' sister, who worked and traveled as missionaries in pairs with their husbands or brothers (Romans 16:3, 7, 15) as equals and co-workers. Junia is praised as a prominent apostle, imprisoned for her faith. Mary and Persis are commended for their hard work (Romans 16:6, 12). Euodia and Syntyche are called his fellow-workers in the gospel (Philippians 4:2-3). Women were the leaders of house churches (Apphia in Philemon 2; Prisca in I Corinthians 16:19), Lydia of Thyatira (Acts 16:15) and Nympha of Laodicea (Colossians 4:15). Women held offices and played significant roles in group worship, such as the deacon Phoebe (Romans 16:1) and women were certainly praying and prophesying during worship (I Corinthians 11). An order of widows served formal roles of ministry (I Timothy 5:9-10). Women prophets included Mary Magdalene, the Corinthian women, Philip's daughters, Ammia of Philadelphia, Philumene, the visionary martyr Perpetua, Maximilla, Priscilla (Prisca), and Quintilla.

When we look at the bible, both old and new testaments, we realize that they emerged from an extremely patriarchal society. This society devalued women to the extent that they were not even considered to be persons before the law. Not only were they devalued but they were in many ways considered to be of inferior intellect and of a carnal nature even moreso than the male. Patriarchy was simply part and parcel of their world view --- they simply were unable to think of the role of women in any other way. Today we know that women are the intellectual and spiritual equals of men and in every respect except physical size and strength. Jesus himslf seems to gave been largely gender blind in that he numbered women among his disciples and apostles and even close friends. Paul, at first, appears conflicted until we realize that the pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus) were actually written pseudonomously some 60 years after Paul's death. This was more than enough time for patriarchy to once again take charge. In my personal opinion patriarchy just might be the ugliest evil that humanity has ever inflicted on itself. It still exerts its malevolent influence in some circles even today. As a Christian I am convinced that we should make every effort to ensure the full equality of women in every aspect of the life of our churches and in society at large.

Any organization, religious or secular and including marriage, that fails to include women in leadership roles right up to the very top is guilty of several evils. First, it is the insult to the women themselves by viewing them as less worthy. Second, it is the insult to God by denigrating half of God’s creation. If we continue to treat women in this way, then the human race is condemned to stand on one foot, see with one eye, hear with one ear and think with one half the human mind ---- and it shows.

So, the short answer to your question is NO.

 

[bekkilyn]

Also, Paul had left Timothy in the church in Ephesus, which tended to be one of the more conservative areas in the Roman empire when it came to women. Women were not allowed by *law* to speak in public assemblies (the same word in Greek that is translated as "church"), and Paul may not have wished for too much conflict with Roman authorities in that area if it would be detrimental to his primary goal of spreading the gospel.

Another thing about the city of Ephesus is that it was home to the Temple of Artemis, considered one of the Seven Wonders of the ancient world. This Temple was a huge factor in the local economy and most in the Ephesian church were likely converts from the Artemis religion and Paul was dealing with a lot of false teachings due to pagan influences as well as from other directions. Women from the better households tended to be secluded at home behind walls and considered not worth educating, so you have the issue of completely uneducated women who are new converts from the Artemis religion and that's very likely going to be a big problem in that church for a while.

In other locations in the Empire, there were plenty of women preaching and teaching and running churches and Paul held them in very high regard and praised them very highly, so when people try to make verses written to Timothy in the Ephesian church apply to women universally for all time, it creates serious contradictions and goes against the principles of freedom in Christ for all people, slave and free, male and female, Jew and Gentile, that Paul promoted.

When people just cherry pick verses from scripture without putting them into any sort of context in order to exclude or oppress people, they do a great deal of harm, as we have seen over the centuries.

 

[NathChristian]

In other locations in the Empire, there were plenty of women preaching and teaching and running churches and Paul held them in very high regard and praised them very highly, so when people try to make verses written to Timothy in the Ephesian church apply to women universally for all time, it creates serious contradictions and goes against the principles of freedom in Christ for all people, slave and free, male and female, Jew and Gentile, that Paul promoted.

When people just cherry pick verses from scripture without putting them into any sort of context in order to exclude or oppress people, they do a great deal of harm, as we have seen over the centuries.

Thanks for your answers.

"women preaching and teaching and running churches and Paul held them in very high regard and praised them very highly"
In what Bible verse you can find it?

 

[bekkilyn]

Thanks for your answers.

"women preaching and teaching and running churches and Paul held them in very high regard and praised them very highly"
In what Bible verse you can find it?

Go up to JackRT's post above and he has included some of the verses in his first paragraph.

 

[bekkilyn]

You also might want to look at some of the posts I've linked from Marg Mowczko's blog.

Women in Ministry Archives | Marg Mowczko

 

[RDKirk]

We might ask why Paul apparently had no problem with Priscilla "expounding" the gospel to Apollos.

I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

What did "teach" mean in Paul's head if it didn't encompass "expound?"

In Paul's parlance, "teaching" was what masters did with disciples. The master-disciple relationship was inherently one in which the master exercised firm authority over the disciple. The master virtually controlled the life of the disciple.

A master could say to his disciples, for instance, "I'm going to sit at this well and talk to this woman. All the rest of you go into town, get me some food, and bring it back here."

A master could say to his disciples, "I'm not going to walk into town. All of you go into town, get me a donkey to ride and walk it back here to me. I'm going to ride while the rest of you walk."

A master could say to his disciple, "Simon, from now on your name is Peter." Scripture shows that from Adam through various kings to Jesus that the master had the prerogative of naming and renaming those under his authority. That was a sign of his authority.

That relationship is what Paul was talking about. That's what he knew "teaching" to be: Bound inextricably with disciplinary authority. Paul did not allow men to be discipled under women in that kind of relationship--nor did he allow women to be discipled under men in that kind of relationship. Men were to be taught--discipled, disciplined--by older men; women (if unmarried) were to be taught by older women.

We don't even practice that kind of relationship in the Church today. Probably the closest concept we have to that today is the Asian sensei concept.

What I discovered is that when the Greek word translated as "expound" in Acts 18 is consistently used through the New Testament for the act of conveying information to an individual who is not under one's authority. Peter, for instance, "expounded" the gospel to Cornelius...he did not "teach" it. Cornelius was not his disciple.

That usage of the Greek terms is consistent in context: "Teach" when authority is implied; "expound" when it is not. So Paul had no problem with Priscilla doing some "expounding" to Apollos.

 

[Albion]

Hi guys
1 Timothy 2:11-15 says women should be quiet.

Does it mean that women can't write books about christ or women can't have a youtube channel about bible teachings?

Thanks

No, it means that people should keep a level of decorum during church services. In Paul's experience it was women who most often were talking and trying to make some point, but had it been some other people, I think his judgment would have been directed at them instead. In any case, he clearly is saying that this is HIS own policy; we should not take it to be a universal doctrine or regulation, etc.

 

[bekkilyn]

Comedian: So three Pentecostals walk into a church in Ephesus....

 

[Romans 8]

Comedian: So three Pentecostals walk into a church in Ephesus....

Hahaha! I don't get it

 

[NathChristian]

The issue of womens' role in the church is not as clear cut as some people would want to think. The letters of Paul, which date to the middle of the first century AD, provide some clues. For example, Paul greets Prisca, Junia, Julia, and Nereus' sister, who worked and traveled as missionaries in pairs with their husbands or brothers (Romans 16:3, 7, 15) as equals and co-workers. Junia is praised as a prominent apostle, imprisoned for her faith. Mary and Persis are commended for their hard work (Romans 16:6, 12). Euodia and Syntyche are called his fellow-workers in the gospel (Philippians 4:2-3). Women were the leaders of house churches (Apphia in Philemon 2; Prisca in I Corinthians 16:19), Lydia of Thyatira (Acts 16:15) and Nympha of Laodicea (Colossians 4:15). Women held offices and played significant roles in group worship, such as the deacon Phoebe (Romans 16:1) and women were certainly praying and prophesying during worship (I Corinthians 11). An order of widows served formal roles of ministry (I Timothy 5:9-10). Women prophets included Mary Magdalene, the Corinthian women, Philip's daughters, Ammia of Philadelphia, Philumene, the visionary martyr Perpetua, Maximilla, Priscilla (Prisca), and Quintilla.

Lol then it is just so contradictory what he says at 1Timothy2:11-15 when you have all these other exemples.

so is that ok for a woman to write about theology and teach about the gospel on youtube?
or even be a pastor?

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Hi guys
1 Timothy 2:11-15 says women should be quiet.

Does it mean that women can't write books about christ or women can't have a youtube channel about bible teachings?

Thanks

It does not.

 

[crossnote]

Hi guys
1 Timothy 2:11-15 says women should be quiet.

Does it mean that women can't write books about christ or women can't have a youtube channel about bible teachings?

Thanks

It is saying they are not to usurp spiritual authority over a man.

 

[Paidiske]

so is that ok for a woman to write about theology and teach about the gospel on youtube?
or even be a pastor?

Yes.

 

[Romans 8]

Thanks for your answers.

"women preaching and teaching and running churches and Paul held them in very high regard and praised them very highly"
In what Bible verse you can find it?

You can't find these verses, it's specious at best. This is why the debate.

 

[Andrew77]

Hi guys
1 Timothy 2:11-15 says women should be quiet.

Does it mean that women can't write books about christ or women can't have a youtube channel about bible teachings?

Thanks

First, I would follow whatever teaching and guidelines are in place, with the Christian Congregation that you attend.

You should submit yourself to the authority of whatever leadership there is, at the church you attend.

That doesn't mean you must attend that church. There are crazy churches, but you do not contradict their teaching, you simply find a different group of believers to be with, and submit yourself to their authority.

I'll give my take on the passage, for your consideration.

I do not believe that women should be in positions of authority over men. Meaning, I would never go to a church where the pastor was a women.

That does not mean that women cannot teach. They can. There are many excellent women teachers of the Bible.

But the position of elder and pastor, I believe according to the Bible, is a position reserved for men.

Why is this? I don't know, I didn't write the book. G-d wrote it, not me. I just follow the word. If you want reasons why, I don't have them, and G-d is not obligated to tell us.

So that's my views. Again, whatever Christian group you are in, you should follow their teaching on the matter.

 

[JackRT]

Lol then it is just so contradictory what he says at 1Timothy2:11-15 when you have all these other exemples.

Modern analytical bible scholars have intensively studied the text of those epistles that are generally attributed to Paul. By closely examining vocabulary, grammar and thought themes they are in agreement that the following epistles are genuinely from Paul. They are 1 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, Philemon and Romans. Two more letters, Colossians and 2 Thessalonians are in dispute. Hebrews does not reflect Paul’s style and content whatsoever. Ephesians does not reflect the style of Paul but is very much Pauline in content and is thought to have been written by a close follower of Paul’s. The Pastoral letters (Titus, 1 Timothy and 2 Timothy) are attributed to Paul, but someone writing in Paul’s name wrote them around AD120, some 60 years after Paul’s death. Each letter uses vocabulary Paul is not known to have used; each has a different concept than Paul had of key matters such as faith; and each refers to Paul’s close friends Timothy and Titus in formal rather than friendly terms. They assume that Christian churches are governed by the kind of carefully organized authority structures that developed decades after Paul’s time. They are similar in style and in content and in the issues they raise. Scholars generally believe them to have been written by the same person. In addition two of Paul’s epistles are thought to be composed of what were originally several smaller letters. In particular Philippians is composed of three and 2 Corinthians is composed of six. Chapter 16 of Romans seems to be a later addition but genuinely by Paul.

so is that ok for a woman to write about theology and teach about the gospel on youtube?
or even be a pastor?

Certainly!

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Lol then it is just so contradictory what he says at 1Timothy2:11-15 when you have all these other exemples.

so is that ok for a woman to write about theology and teach about the gospel on youtube?
or even be a pastor?

Write - yes.
YouTube - yes.
Pastor - no.

 

[Romans 8]

Modern analytical bible scholars have intensively studied the text of those epistles that are generally attributed to Paul. By closely examining vocabulary, grammar and thought themes they are in agreement that the following epistles are genuinely from Paul. They are 1 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, Philemon and Romans. Two more letters, Colossians and 2 Thessalonians are in dispute. Hebrews does not reflect Paul’s style and content whatsoever. Ephesians does not reflect the style of Paul but is very much Pauline in content and is thought to have been written by a close follower of Paul’s. The Pastoral letters (Titus, 1 Timothy and 2 Timothy) are attributed to Paul, but someone writing in Paul’s name wrote them around AD120, some 60 years after Paul’s death. Each letter uses vocabulary Paul is not known to have used; each has a different concept than Paul had of key matters such as faith; and each refers to Paul’s close friends Timothy and Titus in formal rather than friendly terms. They assume that Christian churches are governed by the kind of carefully organized authority structures that developed decades after Paul’s time. They are similar in style and in content and in the issues they raise. Scholars generally believe them to have been written by the same person. In addition two of Paul’s epistles are thought to be composed of what were originally several smaller letters. In particular Philippians is composed of three and 2 Corinthians is composed of six. Chapter 16 of Romans seems to be a later addition but genuinely by Paul.



Certainly!

Certainly not Jack. The bible does not teach that women can be pastors or teachers of the congregation. This is a new teaching which spawned out of feminism.

 

[PoppyB]

Hi guys
1 Timothy 2:11-15 says women should be quiet.

Does it mean that women can't write books about christ or women can't have a youtube channel about bible teachings?

Thanks

The bible says in Joel 2:28-29

I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

So to try to restrict women's ministry is to restrict the Holy Spirit.