Can we really commnunicate directly with Christ?

[znr]

Oh man I knew it! You don't speak in tongues? No wonder you're not enlightened!

This is true and I have the same issue with those.

 

[Hentenza]

Yeahbut...why would God want us to understand eternal things like everlasting fire on our very limited understanding of materials that burn for millions, even trillions of years? Eternity is never ending, not billions or billions of years. I don't know that we're supposed to be bothering with hell much, or lakes of fire. There are other reasons that someone would want to follow Christ. But anyway, I'm not trying to argue at all, just thinking out loud. We don't need to agree on these things, cowboy.

I am from Texas but am a city dweller.

There are indeed other more important reasons why one would want to follow Christ. I follow Christ because of my love for Him not because I want to avoid the lake of fire. In fact, one should never simply follow something because of fear.

 

[Hentenza]

Oh man I knew it! You don't speak in tongues? No wonder you're not enlightened!

The last time I spoke in tongues I bit my tongue. It hurt.

 

[znr]

Rebuke the pain in Jesus' name.

The last time I spoke in tongues I bit my tongue. It hurt.

 

[Paradoxum]

I think you are being too harsh.

I don't think I am. If anything I should be harsher.

If a person claims to have had a powerful personal experience, I take no issue with them claiming this is the reason they believe whatever it is they believe.

I wasn't talking about personal experience in general, or even religious experience in general. The main thing I was against was saying that you know the experience is from God (rather than psychology) just because 'you know' (ie: you feel like it's real).

Feeling like X is true a terrible reason to think it true. It's either stupidity, ignorance (that false things can feel real), or being so biased that you can't think straight.

Someone could try to defend religious experience in other ways, but saying 'I just feel like it's real' is nonsense, and below any thinking person.

I would question the experience as it pertains to others with no objective evidence, but this does not mean the person doesn't truly believe what they claim.

I take issue when the person infers that others are missing something, because they have not had the same personal experiences and they either are not listening for God or reaching out to him or their experience means others should believe as they do. That, I have significant issues with.

Sure, but I was criticising a specifically terrible defence of religious experience.

 

[Hentenza]

Rebuke the pain in Jesus' name.

Always.

 

[znr]

Really? I was only joking; If you were "spirit filled" you would have sensed this.

Always.

 

[Hentenza]

I don't think I am. If anything I should be harsher.

Go for it, but first think about the fact that you are pushing YOUR subjective belief on me while I have not done the same to you. You do not have to agree or disagree with me.

The main thing I was against was saying that you know the experience is from God (rather than psychology) just because 'you know' (ie: you feel like it's real).

I don't feel like my experience was real. I know for a fact that it was real.

 

[PsychoSarah]

The last time I spoke in tongues I bit my tongue. It hurt.

That was a sign from god, telling you speaking in tongues is dumb

 

[Hentenza]

Really? I was only joking; If you were "spirit filled" you would have sensed this.

I was also joking. I guess I should have used a smiley.

 

[Hentenza]

That was a sign from god, telling you speaking in tongues is dumb

 

[Paradoxum]

Well, I'm not.

This isn't something you can debate over. Because you feel something is something 'you just know' isn't a justifying reason to believe it. That's just a fact.

There are many things that do not have justifying reasons but you believe them anyway.

I don't give reasons like 'I just know' to anything.

This line of argumentation carries no weight. Simply because an explanation is presently not available does not mean that an explanation will not be available in the future.

That isn't what we were talking about though. You tried to explain why you thought religious experience was real. You said, 'you just knew'. My position was that that didn't justify a belief that the experience was from God.

Maybe there is a better reason to think it's from God... I'm just saying that because you 'feel like it' isn't a good reason.

I guess that makes all of mankind delusional in one way or another. Welcome to the club.

And people who do that are wrong. Lots of people doing something doesn't make it okay.

 

[Paradoxum]

Go for it, but first think about the fact that you are pushing YOUR subjective belief on me while I have not done the same to you. You do not have to agree or disagree with me.

I can't be too harsh on here... I'll get a warning of something.

I have no problem pushing my beliefs in some cases.

I don't feel like my experience was real. I know for a fact that it was real.

So if I ask you how you know, what will you say? Before, didn't you just say that you know, without any reason? Well if you don't have rational reason how you 'know', then all you have is a feeling that you know. That feeling could be naturally psychologically produced.

 

[znr]

I should have known. Time for my deliverance!

I was also joking. I guess I should have used a smiley.

 

[Hentenza]

This isn't something you can debate over.

I'm not debating about it nor am I seeking to debate about it.

Because you feel something is something 'you just know' isn't a justifying reason to believe it. That's just a fact.

lol Come back and talk to me about this after you have raised kids. There are things that parents "just know."

I don't give reasons like 'I just know' to anything.

Life is not as black and white as you are attempting to portray it.

That isn't what we were talking about though. You tried to explain why you thought religious experience was real. You said, 'you just knew'. My position was that that didn't justify a belief that the experience was from God.

Correction: I tried to explain why I thought MY religious experience is real.

 

[bhsmte]

I don't think I am. If anything I should be harsher.



I wasn't talking about personal experience in general, or even religious experience in general. The main thing I was against was saying that you know the experience is from God (rather than psychology) just because 'you know' (ie: you feel like it's real).

Feeling like X is true a terrible reason to think it true. It's either stupidity, ignorance (that false things can feel real), or being so biased that you can't think straight.

Someone could try to defend religious experience in other ways, but saying 'I just feel like it's real' is nonsense, and below any thinking person.



Sure, but I was criticising a specifically terrible defence of religious experience.

But, claiming they know the personal experience is real is all part of the psychology of belief and is quite normal. Why would someone claim to have a faith belief and then state; it could all be just a delusion? That would sort of defeat the purpose, wouldn't it?

Now, the Christians I have the most respect for are the one's I feel are more solid in their faith, will state; I believe on faith and my personal experiences, but there is a chance I could be wrong, but I don't believe I am, so I believe. Those are few and far between though.

Again, I have no issue with someone relying on their personal experiences to believe, as long as they are respectful enough, to not claim others are missing something, or their personal experiences are objective evidence that others should believe that don't.

 

[Hentenza]

I can't be too harsh on here... I'll get a warning of something.

Nah, I have pretty thick skin.

I have no problem pushing my beliefs in some cases.

I don't doubt it.

So if I ask you how you know, what will you say? Before, didn't you just say that you know, without any reason? Well if you don't have rational reason how you 'know', then all you have is a feeling that you know. That feeling could be naturally psychologically produced.

Oh, no. My reason is quite rational but it is not a reason to which I have a clear answer, yet.

 

[Paradoxum]

I'm not debating about it nor am I seeking to debate about it.

Well you are disagreeing with me.

lol Come back and talk to me about this after you have raised kids. There are things that parents "just know."

No, there aren't. If there are things you feel are right to do, that's because you instinct, built into your genes. There... a reason.

Life is not as black and white as you are attempting to portray it.

Life isn't black and white... I didn't say it was. I was talking about a specific issue. Feeling like you 'just know' something doesn't justify belief in it.

Correction: I tried to explain why I thought MY religious experience is real.

Sure... what I said still applies.

But, claiming they know the personal experience is real is all part of the psychology of belief and is quite normal.

Saying something is real is part of the psychology of belief... pretty much by definition.

Saying something is real isn't part of the psychology of religious experience. You can feel something, and question what it was.

Why would someone claim to have a faith belief and then state; it could all be just a delusion? That would sort of defeat the purpose, wouldn't it?

Because they are a reasonable person?

You can try to give rational reasons for belief in God and religion. My particular problem here is when no reason is given, and people say 'I just know'.

Now, the Christians I have the most respect for are the one's I feel are more solid in their faith, will state; I believe on faith and my personal experiences, but there is a chance I could be wrong, but I don't believe I am, so I believe. Those are few and far between though.

Again, I have no issue with someone relying on their personal experiences to believe, as long as they are respectful enough, to not claim others are missing something, or their personal experiences are objective evidence that others should believe that don't.

By the way, here I haven't been against people using religious experience as a justification for belief. I've been against them not having a good reason for thinking their religious experience is real.

I used to be Christian, and thought I had religious experiences, but I would have tried to explain why they were real in a reasonable way.

 

[Paradoxum]

Nah, I have pretty thick skin.

You're an Admin, I'd better not.

I don't really want to be mean either.

I don't doubt it.

Oh, no. My reason is quite rational but it is not a reason to which I have a clear answer, yet.

So you do have a justifiable reason?

Even if you say you are unsure, I'd have less problems with that.

 

[bhsmte]

Well you are disagreeing with me.



No, there aren't. If there are things you feel are right to do, that's because you instinct, built into your genes. There... a reason.



Life isn't black and white... I didn't say it was. I was talking about a specific issue. Feeling like you 'just know' something doesn't justify belief in it.



Sure... what I said still applies.



Saying something is real is part of the psychology of belief... pretty much by definition.

Saying something is real isn't part of the psychology of religious experience. You can feel something, and question what it was.



Because they are a reasonable person?

You can try to give rational reasons for belief in God and religion. My particular problem here is when no reason is given, and people say 'I just know'.



By the way, here I haven't been against people using religious experience as a justification for belief. I've been against them not having a good reason for thinking their religious experience is real.

I used to be Christian, and thought I had religious experiences, but I would have tried to explain why they were real in a reasonable way.

In your opinion, what would be a good reason for a believer to claim their religious experience was real?

I don't doubt some have personal religious experiences that they truly feel are real, just as people have other personal experiences that appear very real to them.

Some do not want to share those personal experiences and likely for one of the following reasons;

-They don't desire to have the experience held up to objective scrutiny, because this would threaten their belief and creates cognitive dissonance.
-They feel the experience is personal and want to keep it to themselves