Can we choose Him before He wakes us up?

[Dave L]

How outrageous that you'd even think to connect this verse of scripture to people that don't agree with Calvinistic theology! It's about accepting Christ for who he was or not doing so, period. Sure most Christians find Calvinism most offensive but we find other things offensive too like the doctrines of cults.

How can the Bible be Calvinistic? Many times scripture tells the plight of the reprobate.

“For this reason they could not believe, because again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their heart, and turn to me, and I would heal them.”” (John 12:39–40)

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why do you say so? Are you implying that eternal life is earned? The only ones that overcome are those God keeps, and he doesn't keep them because of their performance or worthiness, but for his own purposes.

I say that because that is how it is written in the scriptures.

“But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:13‬

“For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭3:14‬

“And everyone will hate you because you are my followers. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:13‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, you will. The gospel message is provided direct from the Spirit. Man just reflects this message with witnessing. God does not need men to carry the message of the salvation.

No that is not what the Bible teaches. Nobody ever believed before hearing the gospel except for the prophets. If that were the case there would be no need to spread the gospel. Name one person who believed before hearing the gospel. The gospel is our call to repentance.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

We are Spirits that can die physically, then in the lake of fire, the second death. We are born seperate from God, in sin. We are saved by our faith God did fix this problem.

So you believe we are spirits first which are equipped with a body. As such, you don't believe our spirit is born dead. Is that correct? What happens in your estimation when we are born again? Are we given a new spirit or is our existing spirit just renewed? How do you explain verses that talk about body, soul, and spirit? What is "the soul" then?

 

[Mark Quayle]

So you're saying that some people are damned to hell without any possibility of salvation, and that God preordained it? I've not read that anywhere in the Bible.

Are you saying that God must operate subjected to chance? Only God can accurately qualify "possibility". The rest of us are only trying to guess at truth and the future.

Not to be an ass, but it can be said that [as history has empirically shown us] nothing ever happens except whatever happens. Extrapolating from that, then, one can say that nothing ever *can* happen but whatever will happen. "Chance" therefore, is only speculation, and not a universal principle that controls anything.

So if God is not subject to chance, nor must he wait on the good timing of our personal sovereignty over his choosing, just what abiding principle does control our choice?

But for a verse on the subject, try Romans 9:21-23

 

[Mark Quayle]

No that is not what the Bible teaches. Nobody ever believed before hearing the gospel except for the prophets. If that were the case there would be no need to spread the gospel. Name one person who believed before hearing the gospel. The gospel is our call to repentance.

I don't think Calvinism says otherwise. It says that nobody even can repent without God changing their heart.

 

[Ken Rank]

Your reconciliation of both is to deny at least the one--because the Gospel is necessarily specific to the fact that Eternal Life and Redemption and Regeneration is the sole work of God. The argument between them usually agrees on that point, but disagrees on whether "reaching out to grasp the gift" is a work of man, resulting in the work of God upon that man. Reformed doctrine insists that the whole matter is the work of God, irresistable to the elect, who indeed does grasp it, gladly so and with a softened heart, regenerated heart.

Actually, that is the opposite of what I do. I accept both because I can show you both in Scripture. So how I reconcile is this way.... God knew before He even created Adam that Adam would fall (I can show this in Scripture). Since God knew before Adam was made that Adam would fall, and since God is outside of time and space (and yet within it as well).... then creation was done in such a way that all would lead to our redemption and beyond... a restoration of all things. So as where God didn't create Adam to fall but knew He would... and because God exists outside of time and can see the end from the beginning (and beginning from the end) then from HIS perspective, it is predestination because He already knows the outcome. But we don't... thus we have choice and we can choose life or death, blessing or cursing, just as God commanded Israel to do.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Actually, that is the opposite of what I do. I accept both because I can show you both in Scripture. So how I reconcile is this way.... God knew before He even created Adam that Adam would fall (I can show this in Scripture). Since God knew before Adam was made that Adam would fall, and since God is outside of time and space (and yet within it as well).... then creation was done in such a way that all would lead to our redemption and beyond... a restoration of all things. So as where God didn't create Adam to fall but knew He would... and because God exists outside of time and can see the end from the beginning (and beginning from the end) then from HIS perspective, it is predestination because He already knows the outcome. But we don't... thus we have choice and we can choose life or death, blessing or cursing, just as God commanded Israel to do.

Of course you can show that God knew all that. But he did not cause as a result of his foreknowledge. Quite the opposite --he foreknew because he caused.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Actually, it is. "Total Depravity" means that we cannot make any kind of moral choice except to do evil. That is core Calvinist teaching. It also negates any scripture that says to "choose."

You added to my words. I did not say we are able to make a moral choice [except to do evil]. But what scripture says that to choose means Total Depravity is a moot construct?

Total Depravity, by the way, does not mean that (for example) a mother can't love her child. It means that every choice made, and every thought is fraught with evil and enmity against God, until God changes the heart.

When Scripture says, for example, "Choose you this day whom you will serve.", it is not saying that everybody making this choice is sovereign over that choice, nor that their choice, let's say to choose to serve God, is a valid choice --it may well be lip service, fooling oneself. You could say that there are 3 choices there. There is the choice to turn against God, there is the invalid (because it is done "apart from" God) choice to serve God, and there is the choice to indeed serve God.

 

[Dave-W]

Sorry Mark - but I seriously disagree with that.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God provides the faith. We try to describe it.

Yes, that is a good way to put it. Another that my family is fond of saying is, "We do so, because it is so."

 

[Mark Quayle]

So in a court of law with a jury they listen to evidence. From that they chose to believe or not believe a certain thing. If you were a defense attorney and they found your client guilty you'd walk away claiming, well they always believed my client was guilty or they wouldn't have found him guilty! The overseeing judge might hold you in contempt for that.

Belief for Salvation is not based on the integrity of understanding the evidence. Or maybe to say it better, understanding the evidence is only (and necessarily the result of) regeneration. Saving Faith is the work of God, not the work of man.

 

[Ken Rank]

Of course you can show that God knew all that. But he did not cause as a result of his foreknowledge. Quite the opposite --he foreknew because he caused.

So you believe God caused Adam to sin? That He creates some to joy and life and others to be tortured for eternity for nothing they themselves did? That doesn't sound like a God of love peace and joy who isn't a respecter of persons, does it? Not to me!

 

[Bobber]

The Gospel and the persuading, convicting and illuminating (though, not preveniently regenerating) work of the Spirit are entirely sufficient to enable a sinner to choose the Saviour. This is why Paul writes, "...we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God." (2 Corinthians 5:20) Why would Paul use the word "implore" if God unilaterally regenerates people so that they can recognize that they need to be regenerated? If salvation is entirely a monergistic work of God, what purpose is there in imploring anyone to be saved? Under Calvinism, God will save those who are His whether or not they desire to be saved, so imploring a person to be saved is quite pointless. And yet, Paul, obviously, thought he did need to implore people to be saved. This strongly suggests to me that Paul believed the individual was response-able; they were able to choose to be saved. One does not need to implore a person to do something one knows they will inevitably be made to do - or not do.

www.soteriology101.com

I've brought this point up to Calvinists at other times. Oh they try to say this or that but they know it's a very difficult point for them to address and they try quickly to change the subject. Never should we allow them to that...it's a point they need to explain.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I don't think Calvinism says otherwise. It says that nobody even can repent without God changing their heart.

I believe God gives us the ability to repent and believe but He does not force it. We must comply with the guidance of the Holy Spirit urging us to repent and believe. I also believe that God will call everyone who is capable of believing. Being all knowing He may not call those those He has foreseen who would fail in the end. I’m not 100% sure about that I simply believe it is a possibility.

 

[NW82]

Are you saying that God must operate subjected to chance? Only God can accurately qualify "possibility". The rest of us are only trying to guess at truth and the future.

Not to be an ass, but it can be said that [as history has empirically shown us] nothing ever happens except whatever happens. Extrapolating from that, then, one can say that nothing ever *can* happen but whatever will happen. "Chance" therefore, is only speculation, and not a universal principle that controls anything.

So if God is not subject to chance, nor must he wait on the good timing of our personal sovereignty over his choosing, just what abiding principle does control our choice?

But for a verse on the subject, try Romans 9:21-23

Mark, what you are arguing is the sovereignty of God and that's not my point. God can do what He wants, when He wants, how He wants, I don't dispute that. God know all that we will do in the entirety of history, I don't dispute that. I do dispute that the Bible directly states God preordained people to go to hell by his direction. God knowing our choices that lead to hell, which is biblical, is far afield from God picking and choosing people before creation to be damned.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I've brought this point up to Calvinists at other times. Oh they try to say this or that but they know it's a very difficult point for them to address and they try quickly to change the subject. Never should we allow them to that...it's a point they need to explain.

Yes they dodge many scriptures. John 3:16-17 they often say God didn’t send Jesus to save the world but the scriptures say God sent Him so that the world may be saved. The difference is God sent Jesus so that everyone in the world has the opportunity to be save. They may be saved if they are willing to accept it.

1 Peter 3:9 God wishes no one would perish and everyone would repent. Why does God wish everyone would repent if He only chose a select group? God wishes that everyone would choose of their own free will to repent.

Matthew 22:37 God desires our love. Love is a gift given freely not something that can be taken by force. If we are preprogrammed to love Him it isn’t a gift given freely and not genuine.

God has chosen many who rebelled against Him. Jonah is a perfect example as well as the Israelites, and pretty much every person who ever lived. Jonah sailed away from Nineveh of his own free will disobeying God’s command to go preach to the people in Nineveh.

John 15:1-10 eternal security is false otherwise Jesus telling His apostles to remain in Him is completely unnecessary and this entire message is useless.

 

[aiki]

The fact is the whole matter of salvation is the work of God.

Yes, God is centrally and fundamentally positioned in the process of any person coming to salvation. About this the Bible is very clear.

According to Scripture, nobody wants it unless God does a work in him first.

Certainly, God must work to persuade a sinner of the truths of the Gospel. But I don't for a moment believe God compels a person to be saved or that He first saves them so that they can recognize they need to be saved.

Even if I was to admit to the Arminian claim that salvation is not effective until after a person takes hold, accepts, receives, relinquishes control, or whatever other semantics they wish to use, the fact remains that until God does a work on him, an unbeliever does not want God, and will not pursue him.

Yes.

I am not an Arminian, by the way.

Likewise, the elect, who are also unbelievers until God does a work on them, will necessarily want him when God does that work.

I could agree to this depending upon what you mean by "does a work on them." For a Calvinist, this means God unilaterally compels a person to salvation. For me, it means that God persuades a person to salvation by way of the preaching of the Gospel (the power of God unto salvation), divine conviction, and illumination. If this is what you mean, then we are in agreement.

It does not add up to a matter of chance.

Did I say that it did? Nope.

 

[dms1972]

Not really. Our Lord said "No one comes to me unless the Father draws him."

That "drawing" is conviction from the Holy Spirit. In Wesleyan circles it is called prevenient grace. We sense the pull. We sense the bad place we are in. But in that moment we have the choice to follow that draw or not. We cannot just say "no" today and next week say "yes" when that draw is not there. We have no power to do so.

But sensing the pull is NOT being saved.
That happens only after we respond positively to the draw.

So a person with a theoretical grasp of the Gospel, could not just decide on their own initiative to believe and pray?

What if a person resists the drawing? Will they ever be drawn again?

If someone knows they had been drawn at one point and resisted that, what should they do?

 

[Dave-W]

So a person with a theoretical grasp of the Gospel, could not just decide on their own initiative to believe and pray?

Correct.

What if a person resists the drawing? Will they ever be drawn again?

It happens all the time. Usually yes, but there is no guarantee. Anecdotal evidence says that each time a person resists, the next time is a weaker drawing. Eventually it fades away totally.

If someone knows they had been drawn at one point and resisted that, what should they do?

Pray and ask God to draw them again. And if/when that happens, DON'T RESIST!!!