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Philis
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What does studying the meaning of the bible have to do with Darwinian theories? Christian scholars have understood the creation account to be allegorical long before Darwin came around.
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ptomwebster
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It was plain reading/non brainwashed reading of genesis before the world was handicapped scientifically,mentally etc by origin of species.
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Keachian
On Sabbatical
Go read St. Augustine's Literal Interpretation of Genesis I'm pretty sure he predates Darwin by about 14 centuries, he argues pretty much the same line that I have been arguing, that is that before we take up pitchforks and torches we should first look to see what the original audience brought out of the passage, but also that our emphasis should be that the God of Christianity is the God of reality and that we shouldn't present it any other way towards unbelievers.
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Evolution* doesnt line up with science. It is contrary to science.
When i say evolution im referring to the myth definition of it, that plants animals and people came from non living material ~3.5 billion years ago AND the myth that a chimpanzee morphed into a human being which means "in the image of God he created them" must be discarded.
When i say evolution im referring to the myth definition of it, that plants animals and people came from non living material ~3.5 billion years ago AND the myth that a chimpanzee morphed into a human being which means "in the image of God he created them" must be discarded.
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Keachian
On Sabbatical
While this might encourage the God of the Gaps theory (deism);
"then the LORD God formed the man of dust(non-living material) from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature."
and
"So out of the ground(non-living material) the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name."
So your problem is the age and not from what they came from...
Is this affected, I'm not sure it does. But then this is the definition of the doctrine of Imago Dei that I'm working with:
God condescends to interact with us on a personal level, first with Adam and Eve, then with Enoch, Noah and Abraham and so on culminating in his putting on of flesh and entering into the world as a helpless babe, taking our sins upon his shoulders and showing us what it truly means to be Imago Dei and dying on that wonderful Cross.
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Non living material PLUS Gods breath. NOT non living material PLUS itself.
Can you please, in a different text format so no one confuses heresy for the bible, in your own words, describe what your apriori axiom hears/sees/reads when you read genesis 1?
Genesis 1
King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Can you please, in a different text format so no one confuses heresy for the bible, in your own words, describe what your apriori axiom hears/sees/reads when you read genesis 1?
Genesis 1
King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
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Philis
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I've only been posting here for a week or two. But that still doesn't answer the question, how do you know what I've been taught?
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Assyrian
Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Only if you say God had nothing to do with the 'chimp' 'morphing' into a human being. That is certainly the atheist view, and if there was no involvement form God ten he couldn't have made us in his image. But that isn't what the biological evolution actually says. The biology doesn't tell us whether God was involved or not. I don't see how you think God can form a human being in his image out of mud, but you don't think he can form a human being in his image from a common ancestor with chimps. After all you believe the fossils hominids we find were creatures created by God too don't you? Weren't they just as much his creation as mud?
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Keachian
On Sabbatical
Non-living material being interacted with by God, yes we agree on this. Maybe you could answer one of the other questions, namely that of how does God breathe since you want to make that prime.
I have already done an exegesis of Gen 1:1-2:3 here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7670430-2/#post60917340
Calling what basically boils down to in my mind a difference of opinion heresy will not endear yourself towards me, especially when it's just flinging the accusation before being open and asking clarifying questions. My stance is not heretical, We both believe that God created the universe, that God created life, that God is in control of ALL natural processes, that God created man in his own image, that Adam ultimately failed at this responsibility and that Christ is the perfect image of God and that by Grace revealed through the death burial and resurrection of Christ we are no longer in Adam but in Christ and are therefore all the more joyously called to be the image bearers to the world and that God is a triune God, now if you want to claim that anything above that has to be believed, that's fine but what I have expressed is orthodoxy, that is what I believe I believe anything past that is where we get into contention over opinions and are being more divisive than is helpful. So please in spite of our differences I happily and joyously accept your orthodoxy because we have the above in common, please extend me the same so we can discuss our differences as brothers rather than just continue to talk past each other.
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Mark 10: 6-7
"But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female."
13.75 billion years (big bang myth-beginning of creation for some) then ~3.5 billion years ago 'life' arises (abiogenesis/spontaneous generation completely r e t a r d e d myth) so 13.75 billion -3.5 billion=10.25 billion YEARS between the beginning of creation (in the big bang myth) and 'life'.
Mark 10:6-7 "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female."
6,000 years since creation-------------->today. Beginning of creation=Day 1 of creation week and 6 days later man.
A 5 day gap compared to 10.25 BILLION YEARS, 10,000,000,000 times 365=3,650,000,000,000 days compared to 5. Thats 3 TRILLION six hundred and fifty BILLION compared to 5.
Mark 10:6-7 "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female."
Theistic evolutionists?
"But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female."
13.75 billion years (big bang myth-beginning of creation for some) then ~3.5 billion years ago 'life' arises (abiogenesis/spontaneous generation completely r e t a r d e d myth) so 13.75 billion -3.5 billion=10.25 billion YEARS between the beginning of creation (in the big bang myth) and 'life'.
Mark 10:6-7 "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female."
6,000 years since creation-------------->today. Beginning of creation=Day 1 of creation week and 6 days later man.
A 5 day gap compared to 10.25 BILLION YEARS, 10,000,000,000 times 365=3,650,000,000,000 days compared to 5. Thats 3 TRILLION six hundred and fifty BILLION compared to 5.
Mark 10:6-7 "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female."
Theistic evolutionists?
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Keachian
On Sabbatical
Christ isn't really addressing the question of when did God create man but what is marriage, he is basically quoting Gen 1:27 here so he's pointing to the prefall ideal of marriage, especially since his next words are Gen 2:24, I might also point you to Phil 2:5ff specifically 6, and Matt 24:36 suggesting that maybe in his condescension Christ did not have full knowledge of creation, though I am hesitant to accept that which I just proposed I would need to have a bit more study and reflection time on the matter
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Assyrian
Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
If creation took six days then day six is hardly the beginning.
A bigger problem is you are assuming it refers to the creation of the world, when the whole context is about people, about marriage and divorce. What make you think Jesus is talking about the beginning of the creation of the world rather than the creation of human beings?
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Christ did not have full knowledge of creation,
WAATTTTFFFFF I CANT HELP YOU I WILL NOT RESPOND ANYMORE YOU ARE UNHELPABLE GG CYA ROUND
WAATTTTFFFFF I CANT HELP YOU I WILL NOT RESPOND ANYMORE YOU ARE UNHELPABLE GG CYA ROUND
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ptomwebster
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