Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

[Kenny'sID]

Nobody believes me.

Did we talk about this recently? I recall someone else saying the same thing, but maybe that's common too.

If it's real bad, you might call DCF. Not sure what I'd tell them though, maybe that you'd rather not involve your parents? See I'm in a pickle now, in not wanting to tell you to go against your parents, but you aren't getting help so not sure what to say.

Let's give it a few hours and see if other have a solution. When will you be 18?

How does the underage get help when their parents won't help them. Would you all direct this person to the people who's business it is to take care of these people...DCF? Got something better, and if DCF, how to go about it? Maybe ask your parents if you can call them? IDK.

 

[DeerGlow]

.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Who's DCF? Anyway, it's hard not to be afraid with an uncontrollable brain and things like that. Like a cliff once you fall off you're not flying back up.

I hear ya. Can't say that I really understand but doesn't matter...if it's that much of a problem for you, you need to do all you can to fix it.

DCF = Department of Children and Families

 

[Kenny'sID]

.

 

[Kenny'sID]

You can also try to find a "Crisis Center" or a suicide prevention center in your area...they'd darned well better listen to you.

And not saying you are suicidal, but still, they do just what you may need...get you counseling and meds or can help you find your way out of a desperate situation where you don't know what to do. That's what they are there for.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Wow! Some moderator should help out with this "off point" outreach and 2 person discussion.

 

[DeerGlow]

Wow! Some moderator should help out with this "off point" outreach and 2 person discussion.

Point taken. I've minimised all of my posts that I found.

 

[aiki]

Consider if the son never returns and the dad passed without the son ever returning, how can we say the son is living as if hoping to share in his father's inheritance.

I'm not sure what you mean here...If the father had passed away while the son was off living a profligate life, the Prodigal would still have been his father's son and vice versa. Death does not undo this kind of relationship. Now, as I said, if what you propose had happened, if the father had died without reconciling with his son, there would have been no opportunity for the restoration of their fellowship one to the other but their relationship to each other as father and son would not have altered.

God offers us all as individuals a way out, which is only by remaining aligned at the end of our life with the only human who ever qualified for full access to God,

But, you see, what you've written here puts the onus upon the believer to sustain their salvation. Basically, it is works salvation. If I don't act to preserve my "alignment" with God, then I will die a lost man. How does this not amount to being saved by my efforts rather than the finished, perfect work of Christ on the cross?

So if a bride runs away from the son before marriage is fully consummated, that bride instantly loses access to sharing in the son's inheritance.

I suppose. But the Bible never uses such an analogy to talk about salvation. The Bible talks about adoption, about justification, and redemption, and reconciliation but never does Scripture equate our being saved with being married.

Only if the bride returns, begging mercy and forgiveness could a son accept the bride, to allow the sharing of his inheritance again.

But this is quite unlike what Scripture says is the case when God saves us. We aren't, before God saves us, a bride He has chosen to wed. We are walking corpses spiritually, dead in trespasses and sins, (Eph. 2:1) without the capacity even to desire to be saved. Unless and until God acts to redeem us, we remain in this state of spiritual deadness. There is no initiative we take toward God that He hasn't motivated in us. Our salvation is all His doing. A rather different situation than that of a bride and groom about to marry.

Until that Baptism those people were only considered as having a desire of becoming Christians, so in Protestant terms a desire to be "saved". Such a person being rounded up and tortured for just being associated with Christians raised the question that if they died without recanting a their desire to be "saved" it had to be viewed as a "faith" sufficient to say their death then was as a Christian martyr and so they are indeed in Paradise now - so "saved".

And, again, what you're describing here is, essentially, works salvation which the Bible flatly and explicitly rejects.

Titus 3:5-7
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Like the Church's position now, the Christian back then knew we typically cannot say who is in Heaven or not, absent some revelation that they must be.

Well, what the RC church believed is rather contradicted by Scripture which tells us we can know (and must know) we are saved before we arrive at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

2 Corinthians 13:5
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?...

1 John 5:11-13
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

John 5:24
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

1 John 3:14
14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.

Selah.

 

[DeerGlow]

I'm not sure what you mean here...If the father had passed away while the son was off living a profligate life, the Prodigal would still have been his father's son and vice versa. Death does not undo this kind of relationship. Now, as I said, if what you propose had happened, if the father had died without reconciling with his son, there would have been no opportunity for the restoration of their fellowship one to the other but their relationship to each other as father and son would not have altered.



But, you see, what you've written here puts the onus upon the believer to sustain their salvation. Basically, it is works salvation. If I don't act to preserve my "alignment" with God, then I will die a lost man. How does this not amount to being saved by my efforts rather than the finished, perfect work of Christ on the cross?



I suppose. But the Bible never uses such an analogy to talk about salvation. The Bible talks about adoption, about justification, and redemption, and reconciliation but never does Scripture equate our being saved with being married.



But this is quite unlike what Scripture says is the case when God saves us. We aren't, before God saves us, a bride He has chosen to wed. We are walking corpses spiritually, dead in trespasses and sins, (Eph. 2:1) without the capacity even to desire to be saved. Unless and until God acts to redeem us, we remain in this state of spiritual deadness. There is no initiative we take toward God that He hasn't motivated in us. Our salvation is all His doing. A rather different situation than that of a bride and groom about to marry.



And, again, what you're describing here is, essentially, works salvation which the Bible flatly and explicitly rejects.

Titus 3:5-7
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.



Well, what the RC church believed is rather contradicted by Scripture which tells us we can know (and must know) we are saved before we arrive at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

2 Corinthians 13:5
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?...

1 John 5:11-13
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

John 5:24
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

1 John 3:14
14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.

Selah.

The church is the bride of Christ, right? Maybe that's where the marriage analogy comes from? Like if you leave the church you're no longer the bride?

 

[aiki]

The church is the bride of Christ, right? Maybe that's where the marriage analogy comes from? Like if you leave the church you're no longer the bride?

Yes, the Church is the Bride of Christ. What constitutes the Church? Unsaved people? No, Christ's Bride is all those who are already redeemed by him. A person who is not saved is not part of the Church. Do you see, then, why the analogy Bubba offered isn't biblical? Before a person is saved (by God, not themselves) they are more like a spiritual zombie, "dead in trespasses and sins" the Bible says, not a woman about to be married.

Selah.

 

[DeerGlow]

Yes, the Church is the Bride of Christ. What constitutes the Church? Unsaved people? No, Christ's Bride is all those who are already redeemed by him. A person who is not saved is not part of the Church which is Christ's Bride. Do you see, then, why the analogy Bubba offered isn't biblical? Before a person is saved (by God, not themselves) they are more like a spiritual zombie, "dead in trespasses and sins" the Bible says, not a woman about to be married.

Selah.

I think a lot of people see it as the Bride is all the reedeemed people. Someone can be part of the bride, then leave and no longer be the bride, thus no longer destined for heaven or saved. I don't think Bubba means it that way but it reminds me of someone's corporate election thing. The elect is a group people can fall in and out of thing.

 

[aiki]

I think a lot of people see it as the Bride is all the reedeemed people. Someone can be part of the bride, then leave and no longer be the bride, thus no longer destined for heaven or saved. I don't think Bubba means it that way but it reminds me of someone's corporate election thing. The elect is a group people can fall in and out of thing.

But is this what the Bible says? Not that I can see. Your salvation and mine are not something we accomplished for ourselves. God saved us. Our salvation, our being born-again, wasn't our doing, but God's. Can we undo His work? Do we have the power to dissolve what God has accomplished? I don't think so. You see, God didn't ask us if we wanted to be saved. When He began to work in my heart and yours to draw us to Himself, He didn't first ask our permission to do so. We wouldn't have given it! We couldn't have, being dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1) and enemies of God and alienated from Him by our wicked works (Col. 1:21) So, God unilaterally acted to bring us into reconciliation to Himself. It's the only way we could be saved.

Our salvation, then, is God's doing. And it is something He did without our permission. If God didn't need our permission to move to save us, is our permission necessary to Him maintaining our adoption into His family? In other words, do we have the power to decide if we stay in God's family? Is it up to us whether we "fall out" of His kingdom? I don't see that in Scripture.

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

Hebrews 12:2
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith...

John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

Maybe you've heard a teenager angrily declare to her parents, "I didn't ask to be born into this family!" She's saying this because she doesn't at the moment particularly like being a part of the family. Is it possible for her to undo being the daughter of her parents? Even if she lives the rest of her life denying her relationship to her parents, is she not still their daughter? Of course she is. There is nothing she can do about her relationship to her parents. No matter what she does, she will always be their daughter. Likewise, when God brings us to our second, spiritual birth by which we are made "joint-heirs with Christ" and become one of God's children, we cannot go back and undo that birth anymore than the angry daughter can undo her birth and the relationship to her parents that it produced.

Selah.

 

[DeerGlow]

But is this what the Bible says? Not that I can see. Your salvation and mine are not something we accomplished for ourselves. God saved us. Our salvation, our being born-again, wasn't our doing, but God's. Can we undo His work? Do we have the power to dissolve what God has accomplished? I don't think so. You see, God didn't ask us if we wanted to be saved. When He began to work in my heart and yours to draw us to Himself, He didn't first ask our permission to do so. We wouldn't have given it! We couldn't have, being dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1) and enemies of God and alienated from Him by our wicked works (Col. 1:21) So, God unilaterally acted to bring us into reconciliation to Himself. It's the only way we could be saved.

Our salvation, then, is God's doing. And it is something He did without our permission. If God didn't need our permission to move to save us, is our permission necessary to Him maintaining our adoption into His family? In other words, do we have the power to decide if we stay in God's family? Is it up to us whether we "fall out" of His kingdom? I don't see that in Scripture.

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

Hebrews 12:2
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith...

John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

Maybe you've heard a teenager angrily declare to her parents, "I didn't ask to be born into this family!" She's saying this because she doesn't at the moment particularly like being a part of the family. Is it possible for her to undo being the daughter of her parents? Even if she lives the rest of her life denying her relationship to her parents, is she not still their daughter? Of course she is. There is nothing she can do about her relationship to her parents. No matter what she does, she will always be their daughter. Likewise, when God brings us to our second, spiritual birth by which we are made "joint-heirs with Christ" and become one of God's children, we cannot go back and undo that birth anymore than the angry daughter can undo her birth and the relationship to her parents that it produced.

Selah.

I'm not arguing against you, just explaining what I think the other posters mean. Personally I don't know if you can lose salvation, but I don't seem to have exactly the views everybody else does.

 

[Ron Gurley]

I agree entirely with "aiki"'s posts above/nearby.
We are drifting toward the complex analysis of : SALVATION.
Time for a new thread?

 

[DeerGlow]

I agree entirely with "aiki"'s posts above/nearby.
We are drifting toward the complex analysis of : SALVATION.
Time for a new thread?

The thread title can imply salvation, basically can believers lose their position or, can they lose salvation. Very similar if not the same topic. I'll leave it to the mods.

 

[RDKirk]

I'm not sure what you mean here...If the father had passed away while the son was off living a profligate life, the Prodigal would still have been his father's son and vice versa. Death does not undo this kind of relationship.

Actually, it did. The son had declared, "You are dead to me, old man," and had taken his inheritance. The son had severed that tie. There really was no more a legal connection between them. Remember what the father said to the older son upon the return of the younger:

"Son," he said to him, "You are always with me, and everything I have is yours."

Everything left of the estate indeed belonged to the other son--legally the younger son would get none of it. Legally, death severs all familial relationships.

The point here, though, is that despite the law, the father did a new thing.

 

[aiki]

Actually, it did. The son had declared, "You are dead to me, old man," and had taken his inheritance. The son had severed that tie.

As I said, whatever declarations any child wants to make about their relationship to their parents, they cannot undo their biological descendency from them. In other words, saying "You are dead to me," does not and cannot undo who one's parents are.

Selah.

 

[DeerGlow]

As I said, whatever declarations any child wants to make about their relationship to their parents, they cannot undo their biological descendency from their parents. In other words, saying "You are dead to me," does not and cannot undo who one's parents are.

Selah.

This is confusing now. So legally the younger son has no inheritance yet was declared alive... and is in the family despite asking to be taken in as a servant....

 

[aiki]

This is confusing now. So legally the younger son has no inheritance yet was declared alive... and is in the family despite asking to be taken in as a servant....

What RDKirk was trying to emphasize was how very unusual the behavior of the father was in the parable. In the time in which Christ first shared this parable the father would have been acting rather scandalously.

Why is it confusing that the Prodigal could be alive but without an inheritance (which he had squandered)?

Selah.

 

[DeerGlow]

What RDKirk was trying to emphasize was how very unusual the behavior of the father was in the parable. In the time in which Christ first shared this parable the father would have been acting rather scandalously.

Why is it confusing that the Prodigal could be alive but without an inheritance (which he had squandered)?

Selah.

Because as it relates to us, can you be saved and have no inheritance in the kingdom of God? Maybe I'm confusing myself needlessly....