Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

RDKirk

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If one was certain that they are "saved" and so going to Heaven (in future) why would it be necessary to examine ourselves at all?
There are huddles of verses against the idea of certitude. But as the letter to Corinth was brought up, just one verse from Saint in his first letter to them should do to show the idea is indeed that a Christian can be "disqualified".
1 Cor 6
8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived

Because "going to heaven" isn't the entire enchilada of living as a Christian.

This is something I hit on with my teen boys group at church at every meeting. Walking as a Christian in this life isn't only about staying eligible for a reward at the end. It's about performing one's fragment of Christ's mission every day while one is alive, and taking pleasure in being a part of that great mission.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Because "going to heaven" isn't the entire enchilada of living as a Christian.

This is something I hit on with my teen boys group at church at every meeting. Walking as a Christian in this life isn't only about staying eligible for a reward at the end. It's about performing one's fragment of Christ's mission every day while one is alive, and taking pleasure in being a part of that great mission.
:oldthumbsup:

Exactly. We are sons and daughters of God. Participants in His will on this earth and co-heirs of the Father.

Great post.
 
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DeerGlow

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It is not my contention, it is evident from the whole Bible story. People lived and were judged having lived righteous lives long before the Apostles cam along. A few are shown already enjoying that afterlife, a couple at least even escaping death because they were deemed "righteous". If that does not qualify those people as being "saved" then am unclear what one really means by the term.

Jesus depicts one such dad man already happy in the next life. A dying thief is has been assured he would be happy that day (now that is an example of God giving someone certitude). The righteous dead are depicted same day walking around Jerusalem - surely they were happy before then too and even happier that day!

If being given sufficient faith to respond to Jesus call to drop everything and follow Him, doing that and everything he asked for most of 3 years...etc if that does not qualify those men as both being made righteous and "saved" then I cannot fathom what some Christians think being "saved" means for them.
Not sure what "Spirit is the faith" we have to believe means. Yes, God works on our hearts and minds. Certainly in my view of a longer life after one can first be considered made righteous (do I have repeat again God makes us that way), we can in that sense be "saved" long before we die, which obviously marks the end of that opportunity. As well as an end to our ability to screw that up royally.

In the Catholic view, justification is a translation from a state of unrighteousness to a state of righteousness. It is a process. A process that needs to be repeated because most of us make ourselves unrighteous again and need God to fix that again for us. Because it is a process, one is either fully righteous, somewhere in between or not at all. God can fix that, so we can be re-justified.

The very basic difference in our view is the Protestant often states our righteousness is declared by God and that is it period - we are saved - like being given a go to Heaven pass. Whereas the Catholic takes the idea of righteousness further - He actually makes us righteous, as in Holy as Jesus is Holy rather just declaring, seeing, imputing...etc. like a writ of righteousness on us.

Which is why as an evangelical, myself and many others often end up being Baptized several times. The realization comes that we can become so burdened by depth/magnitude of our sins, that we figure we must not have been really "saved" before. We think, if we were we would not have behaved that way. So what we were certain we had before, we are no longer certain we had at all.

So we have people like me going back down front to get really "saved" this time. (twice for me but I saw 3-4 times as not uncommon). The interesting point there, is the idea behind the sinners prayers is an overly simplified short form of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. So in essence the evangelical getting Baptized again is in practice following a process no so different than Catholics, only they just do not view it that way. The idea of certainty requires them to say it is certain, at least until it is not and they conclude they never really were certain - then they can be made certain again (or again and again).

(I'm baptist but) I thought Catholics said baptism was a sacrament and repeating it was insulting to God.
 
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aiki

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If one was certain that they are "saved" and so going to Heaven (in future) why would it be necessary to examine ourselves at all?

Why indeed? Obviously, Paul was suggesting that some to whom he was writing needed to take stock of their belief that they were in the faith and test it to be sure they really were. But if certitude was impossible, why would Paul urge his readers to test in order to be sure? Clearly, Paul believed one could know if one was really, truly "in the faith." We should, too.

But as the letter to Corinth was brought up, just one verse from Saint in his first letter to them should do to show the idea is indeed that a Christian can be "disqualified".

1 Cor 6
8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived

Meh. Context contradicts your use of this verse to suggest disqualification:

1 Corinthians 6:8-11
8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren!
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.


Paul has just criticized the Corinthian believers about their litigiousness (vs. 7) and reminds them that such unrighteous behaviour is not characteristic of those who will inherit the kingdom of God. But he doesn't go on to say that because they have been wronging one another they are no longer brothers and sisters in Christ. No, instead he reminds them that they were washed, sanctified and justified by Christ and the Holy Spirit and as such are not among those who will not inherit God's kingdom. Paul, then, did not think the Corinthian's bad behaviour had dissolved their salvation; he thought only that it was inconsistent with their new life in Christ. I think, though, that Paul was, in the passage above, perhaps implying that some of the Corinthians were acting like non-believers because they had not actually been saved. But this still doesn't support an SAL point of view.

And I find a lot that seem to think unless others agree with them, their opposing expression automatically becomes just their opinion.

So?

Which is why am glad my expressions of Catholic teachings have several thousand years of solid backing rather than just and only representing "my opinion".

Wrong doctrine is not made right simply because it is maintained for thousands of years. I have the word of God as my sole source of, and guide for, Christian belief and practice. I trust it far more than the Roman Catholic Church which has a long history of doctrinal inconsistency, political wrangling, hierarchical in-fighting, violent oppression of dissenters, and the manipulation, coercion, and extortion of its adherents.

The whole idea of someone saying "I believe, help thou my unbelief" speaks there is more to know about living a successful Christian life than a simple expression of I believe.

It seems to me that all that "I believe, help thou my unbelief" reveals is that the speaker knew his faith was weak and needed bolstering. That's it.

It is not my contention, it is evident from the whole Bible story. People lived and were judged having lived righteous lives long before the Apostles cam along. A few are shown already enjoying that afterlife, a couple at least even escaping death because they were deemed "righteous". If that does not qualify those people as being "saved" then am unclear what one really means by the term.

All of this ignores my question: If it was possible for the Twelve to be saved without Christ's crucifixion, why is not possible for all to be saved without the atonement of Christ on the cross?

It is...telling that you cannot distinguish the spiritual regeneration born-again NT believers enjoyed from the experience of God that OT saints had. Read Hebrews 9:11-28; read Acts 2 these sections of Scripture ought to help clarify the differences for you quite well.

If being given sufficient faith to respond to Jesus call to drop everything and follow Him, doing that and everything he asked for most of 3 years...etc if that does not qualify those men as both being made righteous and "saved" then I cannot fathom what some Christians think being "saved" means for them.

And...you still haven't answered my question (see above). Prior to Christ's crucifixion and the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost in Acts 2 no one could say, "I am crucified with Christ," (Ga. 2:20) or "I am a new creature in Christ, old things are passed away behold all things are become new," (2 Cor. 5:17) or "I am justified by the shed blood of Christ," (Ro. 5:9). Christ's atonement for our sin on the cross made an enormous difference to how people related with God. It's...sad how these once basic truths have sunk into obscurity among modern "Christians."

Not sure what "Spirit is the faith" we have to believe means.

The faith we possess to believe the Gospel and to walk with God is delivered to us in the Person of God's Spirit. The Spirit doesn't just give us faith, He is Himself the faith we possess. When God gives us faith to believe, He gives us His Spirit; for the Spirit is our faith. This is important to understand because when we separate God from the things He gives us, we get occupied with those things rather than with Him. Too many Christians want God's peace, and joy, and love, and grace but they aren't too keen on God Himself; they want His stuff, but they don't really want Him. God, you see, rules wherever He is; He is King wherever He goes. Many believers don't want God as King over them. They don't mind Him controlling the universe from heaven and giving them what they need from a distance, but the idea that they must be living sacrifices to Him, controlled by His Spirit at every moment, is not nearly as enticing as just getting His spiritual goodies while maintaining fundamental autonomy from Him. But there is no real, divine peace, or joy, or grace separate from God. He is those things and we only obtain them as we embrace Him more and more, which means we more and more must yield up ourselves, our dreams, our desires, our relationships, our hobbies, our time and energy to Him.

In the Catholic view, justification is a translation from a state of unrighteousness to a state of righteousness. It is a process.

I think this is what the Bible calls sanctification, not justification.

A process that needs to be repeated because most of us make ourselves unrighteous again and need God to fix that again for us. Because it is a process, one is either fully righteous, somewhere in between or not at all. God can fix that, so we can be re-justified.

Our justification is Christ-dependent, not us-dependent. We are clothed in Christ's righteousness which is never less than entirely perfect and fully satisfying to God. Because this is so, our acceptance with God never vacillates. He "accepts us in the beloved" (Eph. 1:6) who is Christ which means our justification and corresponding acceptance with God never alters. There is, then, no "re-justifying" that happens to the born-again believer; only a once-for-all justification that happens at the moment of the second birth.

The very basic difference in our view is the Protestant often states our righteousness is declared by God and that is it - we are saved - like being given a go to Heaven pass. Whereas the Catholic takes the idea of righteousness further - He actually makes us righteous, as in Holy as Jesus is Holy rather just declaring, seeing, imputing...etc. like a writ of righteousness on us.

This process of becoming righteous in daily living is called sanctification by Protestants.

Which is why as an evangelical, myself and many others often end up being Baptized several times. The realization comes that we can become so burdened by depth/magnitude of our sins, that we figure we must not have been really "saved" before. We think, if we were we would not have behaved that way. So what we were certain we had before, we are no longer certain we had at all.

Well, this has nothing whatever to do with what the Bible declares is the truth about a person's salvation. I have never met, by the way, in over forty years as a Baptist, any person who was baptized repeatedly.

So we have people like me going back down front to get really "saved" this time.

This is simply a testament to how poorly you were discipled and taught the basic doctrines of the Christian faith. I know many Catholics who are just as ignorant of their doctrines. I am married to one who is now an evangelical Protestant (and much better informed about her faith). She now knows she can be confident that she is saved and eternally so - just as the Bible teaches.

Selah.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Well, now you appear to be contradicting yourself. "No work will enable us to inherit God's kingdom," you say and then you assert that only by aligning with Christ can we share in his inheritance. From what you've written in earlier posts, by "alignment" you mean godly living which is a work we do. Scripture, though, says salvation is a gift of God obtained by saving faith in Christ totally apart from any godly living or "alignment" we perform.
If that is what I said, then it was said in error. Whether I actually erred or not, what the point was we need to leave this life aligned, in the sense we are still "righteous" in God eye's so our entire life - the sum of all it but more importantly because of sin in a Christian life - since the last time we could be said "righteous".
If we go out like this "facebook killer" did just the other day, it is hard to see him as being righteous in God's eyes no matter how many times he was certain he was "saved". Not saying I know he is not in Paradise right now. Just saying a life ending that way would be sufficient I would think, absent some justification in God's eyes of his final deeds, for God to no longer see such an individual as righteous. An evangelical might respond, well that person was never really saved anyway, whereas the Catholic would say he may well have been righteous at one time, but hard to view that life person is righteous after doing that without a true repentance from God after doing it - which creates the uncertainty part from our view.

The proper understanding of a faith that grows as multiple Apostles describe it in the NT, is we are cooperating with God's Grace and even cooperating with each other. So impossible for us to "work" for being righteous ourself. Good works are rewarded, but that is not what makes one righteous, God does that and in the Catholic view we are actually MADE righteous by God - so real application of whatever you want to call it from Him - rather than Him just "viewing" or "declaring" us righteous. So the idea is we are MADE white as snow - not that we just look like we are to Him. We really can be Holy as He is Holy. But our natural tendency to mess that up remains, so we typically do not stay fully white very long at all.

If you want to play Scriptures slings, see if you can find the verse that says we cannot do this alone. We need God and each other.
I don't agree. I think too often Christians think God gives them spiritual things (faith, love, joy, peace, etc.) in order to live the Christian life when in fact what God gives us to live rightly before Him is Himself in the Person of His Spirit.
Everything He gives us is a gift of Himself, so I do not disagree here. However I would say the stench of our sins, the degree we can say a person is unrighteous affects the Holy Spirit ability to work/dwell with us. If a single sin created a complete separation from God, then I fail to see how we could imagine our sins as Christians have no effect at distancing ourself from His Work in our life and His ability to work in/through us, at least as compared to being totally and really righteous.
There is no separation between the Fruit of the Spirit and the Spirit Himself; God's power is given to us in the Person of Spirit. God does not dole out to us bits and pieces ("graces") of love, and joy, and peace that are a kind of spiritual currency separate from Himself.
Correct God has no parts, which is why He has not body - God is Spirit. To think He cannot apply His Grace to us refutes the whole notion that He deprived mankind of it starting with Adam after he sinned. That it can be taken away from us to the point the Spirit is said to "depart" seems evident in multiple Scripture warnings that this can happen. I agree the Comforter can help us fight temptation, but it that help does not stop us from all sin or even sinning very badly.
No, God's love, joy and peace, His faith, is found only in Him. To want these things is to want God; to ask for more peace or spiritual power is to ask for more of God.
In a sense yes, that is the meaning of wanting to be full of Grace and what is meant by be Holy as I am Holy. We cannot be that without His Grace applied, which is why a Catholic can never view good works as "saving ourself". And being Holy, being full of Grace is what is meant by saying one is righteous, so at that moment anyway a person is acceptable and pleasing to God. As soon as we start sinning after that, we are less so. So if there is anything that can directly be placed at our feet, it is messing up our righteousness with God.
This may seem like nit-picking to you, but understanding what I have explained here is, as far as I'm concerned, terribly important (in no small part because so many believers separate God from the spiritual fruit and power He imparts to them).
A spirtual fruit and power being imparted is rather what I am talking about and as long as we are talking about nit-picking, that statement is contradictory with telling me basically that we get "God" and nothing more.
Well, if you'd attended the Baptist churches that I have, your experience in this regard would have been very different.
Attended a lot Baptist Churches, from mega to small group meeting in a basement of a commercial bldg. The mega it is less easy to see because you do not really know everyone enough to say over the years that I have seen that guy dunked before. When you spend 17 years of your life in a small community Baptist Church it is a different story. I did not mean everybody gets Baptized multiple times, but if an actor went to many of those Churchs, went down front and prayed with them, they would Baptism and never ask if he had been Baptized before or if they did never question why he wants to do so again. As opposed to the Catholic Church wanting to know when, where any former Baptism (or last Baptism) was to insure it was valid (not a Mormon Baptism for instance) and then if so, not allow you to be Baptized again when joining the Church.
And the only reason any man "endures to the end" is because he is genuinely saved and thus motivated and empowered to endure by the Holy Spirit.
If enduring does not apply to remaining righteous in God's eye because all unforgiven serious sins have been resolved in our relationship, then am not sure why needing to endure, needing to run a good race, needing to be sure we don't "fall" into serious sin is so often and very seriously warned to Christians - not just to all men. These are letters and warnings to Christians.
This passage does not say that doom will fall upon believers. Paul writes of "men" who say "All is quiet, all is safe" in a generic sense; he is not meaning Christian brethren else he would write "you" as he does in the verses preceding verse 3.
I do not see how how to look a letter written to "you" and warning "you" about falling into sin, then saying don't be LIKE those who think all is well (in your sin implied) when it absolutely is not. Extreme example, but am unclear how to view Abraham as "accounted" for being made righteous if he murdered someone just before dying. The idea in that hypothetical Abraham was never "righteous", like saying the Apostles actually following God around for three years are never "righteous" in His Eyes, just seems counter-intuitive to what being made righteous should mean.
Why should believers "watch and keep sober"? Because, as Paul explains, this is the proper behaviour of those who know Christ. What's more, if it were a natural thing for Christians to live watchfully and soberly and to armor themselves with faith, love, and the hope of salvation, Paul would not have to write to those he calls brethren, those he thinks of as saved, to urge them toward such things. Paul no where in this passage warns the believers to whom he is writing of the loss of their salvation. He simply explains the proper way for those who are saved to behave and why. In fact, Paul remarks in the passage above that "God has not destined us for vengeance" which seems to support a once-saved-always-saved position.
We can agree to disagree that in Saint Paul's admonition that the "lest" you meet your maker suddenly like meeting a thief unexpectedly in the night part is meaningless. Which in your view it seems meaningless if our sinning has no impact on having formerly been actually made (by God not ourself) righteous
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Because "going to heaven" isn't the entire enchilada of living as a Christian.

This is something I hit on with my teen boys group at church at every meeting. Walking as a Christian in this life isn't only about staying eligible for a reward at the end. It's about performing one's fragment of Christ's mission every day while one is alive, and taking pleasure in being a part of that great mission.
No it is not, but it is what matters to a Catholic anyway when we speak of being "saved" since my actual (not appearance of) righteousness at any given moment is never a certain thing because I can sin and mess that up. If we are walking the walk, the degree we mess that up could be insufficient to matter eternally, but there is always penalty for sin (even temporal penalty for forgiven sins for that matter). Something or things always dies when we sin to quote a popular San Diego Baptist Pastor. We can be forgiven but we don't always bring back what our sin caused to die.

So while it is definitely true the end goal is not the only thing, this fact does not invalidate there being a real reward in the end or the idea that if one does not keep walking the walk instead of just talking the walk that the reward is in jeopardy. We also should consider that part of walk is to help others in the same walk, so no the walk was never meant to be done without God's help or the help of others.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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(I'm baptist but) I thought Catholics said baptism was a sacrament and repeating it was insulting to God.
That is what I have been trying to say. Baptist will dunk me as many times as I claim I need it, or at least I can find a Church that will right now. When I joined the Catholic Church I wanted to be Baptized in it even though I understood why they would refuse me.
So you are correct in your thought; it is true the Church will not re-Baptize a Christian who is already been Baptize (even as an infant) because that Sacrament is only given once, like marriage is meant to be given only once. So my prior Baptist Baptism is considered my one shot at that Sacrament which actually makes us Holy - as in righteous to God - pleasing at least at that moment.
 
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DeerGlow

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That is what I have been trying to say. Baptist will dunk me as many times as I claim I need it, or at least I can find a Church that will right now. When I joined the Catholic Church I wanted to be Baptized in it even though I understood why they would refuse me.
So you are correct in your thought; it is true the Church will not re-Baptize a Christian who is already been Baptize (even as an infant) because that Sacrament is only given once, like marriage is meant to be given only once. So my prior Baptist Baptism is considered my one shot at that Sacrament which actually makes us Holy - as in righteous to God - pleasing at least at that moment.

I thought you were saying every time you went into a (unsaved?) state you got re-baptised. My mistake. :) Nothing personal.
 
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RDKirk

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No it is not, but it is what matters to a Catholic anyway when we speak of being "saved" since my actual (not appearance of) righteousness at any given moment is never a certain thing because I can sin and mess that up. If we are walking the walk, the degree we mess that up could be insufficient to matter eternally, but there is always penalty for sin (even temporal penalty for forgiven sins for that matter). Something or things always dies when we sin to quote a popular San Diego Baptist Pastor. We can be forgiven but we don't always bring back what our sin caused to die.

So while it is definitely true the end goal is not the only thing, this fact does not invalidate there being a real reward in the end or the idea that if one does not keep walking the walk instead of just talking the walk that the reward is in jeopardy. We also should consider that part of walk is to help others in the same walk, so no the walk was never meant to be done without God's help or the help of others.

The difference seems to be that you believe every day risks doing something that will send you to hell.

I rejoice every day that I get opportunities to be part of a great mission under a great commander. "To live is Christ."
 
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DrBubbaLove

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The difference seems to be that you believe every day risks doing something that will send you to hell.

I rejoice every day that I get opportunities to be part of a great mission under a great commander. "To live is Christ."
That is overstating it a bit.
The point is I must remember "there but the Grace of God go I" when thinking of how easily I could fall badly. Saint Peter as we should recall vowed that [falling] would NEVER happen to me him.
Maybe more appropriately is Saint Paul's expression of a similar thought of himself of how Grace works in us:
1 Cor 15 "10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me has not been in vain. "

Which when one thinks about that statement, how could grace toward anyone be in vain if there is always certitude?????
 
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aiki

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Whether I actually erred or not, what the point was we need to leave this life aligned, in the sense we are still "righteous" in God eye's so our entire life - the sum of all it but more importantly because of sin in a Christian life - since the last time we could be said "righteous".

And how does one do this, exactly? How do they stay "aligned"? How does one stay righteous? What do you mean by "righteous"? Are you speaking of a person's works?

If we go out like this "facebook killer" did just the other day, it is hard to see him as being righteous in God's eyes no matter how many times he was certain he was "saved".

So, you are talking about works. If we stay righteous, that is, if our works remain good, then we can expect to enter into God's kingdom? This sounds like works-salvation to me.

Not saying I know he is not in Paradise right now. Just saying a life ending that way would be sufficient I would think, absent some justification in God's eyes of his final deeds, for God to no longer see such an individual as righteous.

Well, this is one of the big problems with your view: How much sin is too much sin? Where, exactly, is the line a person can cross by their sinful behaviour into being unsaved? Who gets to decide where that line is? If such a line exists, wouldn't it have been very important for God to tell us where it is?

An evangelical might respond, well that person was never really saved anyway,

But this is what Christ himself says:

Matthew 7:18-20
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.


Good works are rewarded, but that is not what makes one righteous, God does that and in the Catholic view we are actually MADE righteous by God - so real application of whatever you want to call it from Him - rather than Him just "viewing" or "declaring" us righteous. So the idea is we are MADE white as snow - not that we just look like we are to Him. We really can be Holy as He is Holy. But our natural tendency to mess that up remains, so we typically do not stay fully white very long at all.

I can't think of any Scripture that says we are made actually perfectly righteous by God when we are saved. Christ's righteousness is imputed to us and we are cleansed of the stain of our sin by Christ's shed blood, but this does not mean we are really, truly perfectly righteous. Our justification is a judicial declaration, not an actual state of affairs. I am clothed in the righteousness of Christ - I am justified - but this no more makes me perfectly righteous as Christ is than being clothed in a bear-skin coat makes me a bear. This is why we read in Scripture:

Galatians 5:17
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.


Romans 7:18-24
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?


If you want to play Scriptures slings, see if you can find the verse that says we cannot do this alone.

???

However I would say the stench of our sins, the degree we can say a person is unrighteous affects the Holy Spirit ability to work/dwell with us.

I agree. But it is not the stench of our sin that is the hindrance to the Holy Spirit but Self uncrucified and our lives unsurrendered that prevents the Spirit from working powerfully in and through us.

If a single sin created a complete separation from God, then I fail to see how we could imagine our sins as Christians have no effect at distancing ourself from His Work in our life and His ability to work in/through us, at least as compared to being totally and really righteous.

Perhaps you're speaking theoretically, but as I understand it, our sin stifles our fellowship with God but it cannot adversely affect our relationship to Him. We are saved on the basis of the finished, perfect work of Christ at Calvary not upon our righteous living. We can add nothing to what Christ has already done in securing our redemption. Our salvation is a gift we cannot earn and to which we need not and cannot contribute.

That it can be taken away from us to the point the Spirit is said to "depart" seems evident in multiple Scripture warnings that this can happen.

I know of no verse in the NT that says if a genuinely born-again person sins sufficiently, God will withdraw His Spirit from them.

I agree the Comforter can help us fight temptation, but it that help does not stop us from all sin or even sinning very badly.

You have a very small view of the power of the Holy Spirit to transform the fully-yielded believer. And you seem to be unaware of the teaching of Romans 6.

And being Holy, being full of Grace is what is meant by saying one is righteous,

Being holy is living a life entirely separated unto God and free from moral compromise. This is accomplished by being filled with God's Spirit, not grace.

Ephesians 5:18
18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit,
(see also Acts 2:4; 4:8; 4:31; 9:17; 13:9; 13:52)

A spirtual fruit and power being imparted is rather what I am talking about and as long as we are talking about nit-picking, that statement is contradictory with telling me basically that we get "God" and nothing more.

How can we have more than God? He is the Source of All Things. This is what I have been trying to communicate to you: All the grace you might have is only found in God Himself. God does not dole out bits and pieces of grace, or faith, or power. He is those things; they are found in Him.

Attended a lot Baptist Churches, from mega to small group meeting in a basement of a commercial bldg. The mega it is less easy to see because you do not really know everyone enough to say over the years that I have seen that guy dunked before. When you spend 17 years of your life in a small community Baptist Church it is a different story. I did not mean everybody gets Baptized multiple times, but if an actor went to many of those Churchs, went down front and prayed with them, they would Baptism and never ask if he had been Baptized before or if they did never question why he wants to do so again. As opposed to the Catholic Church wanting to know when, where any former Baptism (or last Baptism) was to insure it was valid (not a Mormon Baptism for instance) and then if so, not allow you to be Baptized again when joining the Church.

Well, this may have been your experience, but as a Baptist now for nearly fifty years nothing of what you've said here is true of the churches I've attended. In these churches no one ever gets baptized without first going through a course on the purpose and meaning of baptism and without being questioned about their motives for being baptized.

We can agree to disagree that in Saint Paul's admonition that the "lest" you meet your maker suddenly like meeting a thief unexpectedly in the night part is meaningless.

???

Selah.
 
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Imagican

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Not a Catholic and don't agree with much of their teachings. But there is one thing I am forced to agree with: It is NOT merely a matter of 'grace' that brings us to Salvation according to the Bible. Those that insist ONLY quote scripture that mentions 'grace'. But there is MUCH of the Bible that speaks of WORKS. Both God and His Son COMMAND us to obedience. And that obedience is DOING what we are instructed to DO.

I'm not talking about ritual or celebration. I'm talking about the ONE thing that Christ commanded us to DO: LOVE. And anyone that hasn't LEARNED what love is has no idea how much WORK it truly is to share one's love with God and others.

Forgiveness is WORK. It takes a MAJOR effort for us to forgive each other on a daily basis.

Those that don't THINK so simply don't know HOW.

Talk is cheap. Anyone can SAY 'anything'. But does your 'fruit' mirror what you 'say'?

The offer of Salvation is 'grace and grace alone'. That IS what the Bible says.

But to RECEIVE the offer requires MUCH from us. The idea that it's ALL in God's hands and NOTHING is required of US is ludicrous. A man unwilling to WORK doesn't even deserve to EAT. But you THINK that this same man that doesn't even deserve to EAT only has to SAY they believe and receive Salvation? The greatest gift ever offered? Note the word: OFFERED.

Christ plainly states that there will be MANY that have FOOLED themselves into BELIEVING that they are saved that ARE NOT. And until this flesh ceases to exist, how does ANYONE believe that they are TRULY 'saved'? For the determination can't be made UNTIL this life in the flesh is OVER. For at any time one can 'turn and walk away' like many did that followed Christ when He was here in the flesh. If you can walk FORWARD, you can certain turn around and walk the other way.

So until the final breath, one has the capacity to 'turn away' and refuse to accept ANYTHING that has been offered.

There are many that do nothing but ABUSE the gift of life that has been offered and then tell everyone around them that they KNOW they are 'saved'. Self delusion. Why would God grant additional life to someone that doesn't even treat this one as if they care? God is going to FORCE eternal life on those that don't even treat this life proper? Not a LOVING God.

Grace/faith/works is what the Bible teaches. The three cannot be separated in "truth".

Blessings,

MEC
 
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DrBubbaLove

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And how does one do this, exactly?
Reconciliation, so if done properly just like Baptism, represents a process were God's Grace is offered for the remission of sins - forgiven then we are made righteous again.
How do they stay "aligned"?
By God's help (Holy Spirit and application of more Grace, by the Church's help and the help of fellow Christians.
How does one stay righteous?
Most of us don't, we have to keep asking for forgiveness and keep growing/strengthing our faith so it should hopefully get harder to sin - but often it becomes a different type of sin - which is why C.S. Lewis would say something like this:
we actually are, at present, creatures whose character must be, in some respects, a horror to God, as it is, when we really see it, a horror to ourselves. This I believe to be a fact: and I notice that the holier a man is, the more fully he is aware of that fact. Perhaps you have imagined that this humility in the saints is a pious illusion at which God smiles. That is a most dangerous error. It is theoretically dangerous, because it makes you identify a virtue (i.e., a perfection) with an illusion (i.e., an imperfection), which must be nonsense. It is practically dangerous because it encourages a man to mistake his first insights into his own corruption for the first beginnings of a halo round his own silly head. No; depend upon it, when the saints say that they - even they - are vile, they are recording truth with scientific accuracy.
What do you mean by "righteous"?
actually being Holy as He is Holy, actually righteous so we can walk into His Presence similar to what Enoch, Elijah, probably Abraham and Moses did at the end of their lives. So being made "white as snow" is really being made righteous, rather than just "appearing" white to God.
Are you speaking of a person's works?
No. Have not really touched on works as I cannot get past presenting my belief that God first must give us a Grace to the Faith necessary to believe without people saying I think we save ourselves.

But since you mentioned it, works would be part of the fruit of having that Faith God GIVES a Christian. Works would also be part of the cooperation with God (with His Grace) that helps strengthen, deepen and protect our Faith, IOW works help us "put off" the "old man" and put on the "new man." HELP, not assurance or certitude or making ourself righteous - our works should help strengthen us against sinning which opposes being righteous. Works do not help in obtaining righteousness.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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So, you are talking about works. If we stay righteous, that is, if our works remain good, then we can expect to enter into God's kingdom? This sounds like works-salvation to me.
No offense, but I feel like am talking to a parrot trained to say 'works' when ever a Catholic says God makes us righteous.

What possible view of Christianity would suggest "good works" would be related to murder or trying to not to murder. The only way to stay righteous is to not sin. We are not going to stop sinning with God's help (which means the Comforter and His Grace being repeatedly applied to our lives), also with the help of the Church and members of the Church. So WE CANNOT DO THAT OURSELVES. Am not sure how plainer to keep saying it.
It is almost like am conversing with someone who thinks I am lying about the teaching and needs to look at everything I say we need to do as a "work" that "saves" our self. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Saving our self is not even what the idea of "works" is about. It is about helping others, hopefully leading others to God besides the benefits to strengthening our own walk and deepening our faith.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Well, this is one of the big problems with your view: How much sin is too much sin?
God would be the only judge of that, so in the end of it, His is the only opinion that matters.

But I would think that if one has grown beyond a childlike Faith of "I believe, help thou my unbelief" that with properly cared for conscious we should feel the need to ask for forgiveness BEFORE we get to a point where are murdering someone on facebook and then killing our self.

We should hear the groaning of the Holy Spirit over our sinful thoughts before those become deeds. If not then something is wrong already. Spending time in prayer and reflection to ask, is what I have done if nothing else comes to mind that one has not asked His forgiveness for. He will show you if you think there is nothing there that one needs to be forgiven over, just ask Him. Works for me, and that is not an original idea.
Where, exactly, is the line a person can cross by their sinful behaviour into being unsaved?
God.
It is a good question though. The fact we all want a line, goes to our corrupt nature. Obviously it is not like if a line were drawn it would stop us from wanting to cross it. Adam was told only one thing he should not do for example, and he was set up far better than we are without already having a unnatural tendencies we do. And Adam was created already having the supernatural Grace to be Holy as He is Holy. He still crossed the line that was clearly drawn.

The question you ask should be considered in the light of our corrupt nature because we know we tend to do what we should not. As C.S Lewis suggested the Holier we are, the more horrific we realize our life must appear to God, and so from that perspective "the line" has moved beyond where most of us would probably want it drawn anyway.
Who gets to decide where that line is?
God. The problem is we want to draw the line for our self and where we would have it drawn is not Holy as He is Holy.
If such a line exists, wouldn't it have been very important for God to tell us where it is?
He has. He wrote His Law on our hearts. So for example, we know it is wrong to murder, steal, lie....etc and we know that intrinsically. So if we imagined our self Holy as He is Holy or Holy like men such as Abraham, Moses, Enoch, Elijah at the end or their lives or a Virgin recognized in greeting Her as Holy by an angel, then doing something as serious as murder (or maybe denying Him publicly 3 times) has got to be viewed as probably a deal breaker for us with God.

Where as if I see myself made Holy rising from the Waters of my Baptism, then looked at my wife asking me if her baptism robe made her butt look too large, God is probably not going to send me to Hell for the white lie I probably just told in reply to her. Still consider either way and with any sin - something and usually more than one thing dies (corrupts). Not just our relationship with God. So in this view of our life, ALL sin forgiven or not has consequence temporal (this life) from which there is no escape. Potentially serious consequence in the next life if we don' t take care to avoid it going that far (into the next life I mean).
 
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DrBubbaLove

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I can't think of any Scripture that says we are made actually perfectly righteous by God when we are saved.
Since my view does not really include your concept of being "saved", then I have to agree with your assessment that it is not in the Bible. But I know you did not meant that.
If Baptism is for the remission of sins, and a single sin was what made Adam um-righteous - then it seems first off that our Baptism makes us righteous perfectly. Otherwise we could not call it a Baptism for the remission of sins.
Christ's righteousness is imputed to us and we are cleansed of the stain of our sin by Christ's shed blood, but this does not mean we are really, truly perfectly righteous. Our justification is a judicial declaration, not an actual state of affairs. I am clothed in the righteousness of Christ - I am justified - but this no more makes me perfectly righteous as Christ is than being clothed in a bear-skin coat makes me a bear.
You were asking questions about my view and am very familiar with yours. It kind of goes without saying your view does not agree with mine.
If Jesus is to be believed through the voice of His Apostles, am not sure how fake it till you make it would qualify as "be Holy as I am Holy". Or how we should imagine our prime example for a Perfect Christian life is just a suggestion and we need not concern ourselves with actually trying to do what He did, because His Righteousness covers us.
You like quoting Scripture. Are you telling me you can find no verses that says something along the lines of a "Lost" theme - live together, die alone?????? Or are you asking a Catholic for a hint where to find it in Scripture?
I agree. But it is not the stench of our sin that is the hindrance to the Holy Spirit but Self uncrucified and our lives unsurrendered that prevents the Spirit from working powerfully in and through us.
Saying much the same thing as our willful rebellion that results in sin, but the expression seems to downplay as the C.S Lewis quote suggests, the offensive smell a single sin must be to God.

Am unclear why some Christians want to downplay the stench of our sins to God. Again, consider what happened to the first Adam, all of mankind and all of creation from just one sin. It only makes sense however if we humanize God that we imagine a human father would tolerate the smell. He cannot tolerate it because of Who He is.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Perhaps you're speaking theoretically, but as I understand it, our sin stifles our fellowship with God but it cannot adversely affect our relationship to Him. We are saved on the basis of the finished, perfect work of Christ at Calvary not upon our righteous living. We can add nothing to what Christ has already done in securing our redemption. Our salvation is a gift we cannot earn and to which we need not and cannot contribute.
I will agree my view is not understandable or rational if you are going to insist on superimposing yours onto to it. Whereas your view is at least rational to me, even though I see issues now with applying to some parts of the Bible, but only if I do not superimpose the Catholic view on it.

From my view, we are not just deemed righteous. He can and does actually make us righteous. He made Adam that way. A single sin corrupted the way He MADE Adam just as a single sin can corrupt His having made us righteous.

I know of no verse in the NT that says if a genuinely born-again person sins sufficiently, God will withdraw His Spirit from them.
Why limit our self to only the NT?

The first man undid the relationship for himself and us (OT), and the new Adam made it possible for us to undo what sin has done to us in our relationship with God (NT). Unclear how can I conclude nothing in the Bible says rebelling from God can result in our eternal deprivation of being what He made us to be (which is the way He made Adam to be and the way Adam was before He sinned).


Especially when the NT is full of warnings about sinning in letters written to Christians.

You have a very small view of the power of the Holy Spirit to transform the fully-yielded believer.
Is there certitude in that statement???

Which power is greater, a power that says an object is hidden by a cloak so we cannot see how filthy it is or a Power that can make the object spotless?
 
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DrBubbaLove

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And you seem to be unaware of the teaching of Romans 6.
If my understanding of a letter written to Christians in Rome needs to slice and dice it so parts presented together to Christians can selectively be viewed as being made to humans in general - then yes - I am aware people can teach an understanding of Scriptures that way. And I very certain of my being familiar with anything you might say about Romans 6 because it would be similar to what I formerly would have said the Apostles means.

However, if we cannot take the teaching "understood" without dissecting his words, the relative value of my awareness seems significantly diminished.
Writing to the same Christians in Rome nearer the open of that letter the same Apostle said:
3 Do you imagine, whoever you are, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not realize that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?

And in Chapter 6 he tells Christians:
12 Therefore, do not let sin exercise dominion in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. 13 No longer present your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and present your members to God as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Which implies we can as Christians let sin exercise dominion in our life, and doing so we could not be able to present our self to God as being made righteous by (under) His grace.
Being holy is living a life entirely separated unto God and free from moral compromise. This is accomplished by being filled with God's Spirit, not grace.
Am not sure Saint Paul writing in the letter to Christians in Rome would agree:
"through whom we have received grace"
"Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
"they are now justified by his grace as a gift,"
'For this reason it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace"
"through whom we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand"
"those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness exercise dominion in life through the one man, Jesus Christ"
"so that, just as sin exercised dominion in death, so grace might also exercise dominion through justification leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord"
"So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace."
"For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of yourself more highly than you ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned."
"We have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us:
"because of the grace given me by God"
"I appeal to you therefore, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship."
"May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit"
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Well, this may have been your experience, but as a Baptist now for nearly fifty years nothing of what you've said here is true of the churches I've attended. In these churches no one ever gets baptized without first going through a course on the purpose and meaning of baptism and without being questioned about their motives for being baptized.
My experience was rather broad, VA, HI, CA, MD, FL, TX, AL - and I never said they were ALL that way. Predominately I can say only a few in my experience involved any interview by Pastor or a course or questioning of motives before Baptism. Several would offer people who "came down front" a Baptism on the spot same day - they had changing rooms with robes and people designated to help.

My second Baptist Baptism was in just such a mega-Church in San Diego, with jumbo trons and praise teams, band, expresso and donnut shop in the lobby...etc. No one questioned my motive, prior experience. The service I came forward in, was the service I got Baptized in - and it did not take long. It did feel odd to be stripping naked and putting on robes behind a barrier that one could see some of the thousands of people heads over. Afterwards you could join various different Sunday School classes and they might recommend the one for new Christian adults, but you could also switch around as I did if you felt the level presented there to basic.
The point was we can agree to disagree that Saint Paul is admonishing Christians to behave properly because in many Christians view besides Catholics there can be eternal consequences if they do not take care to be "awake and sober". You had said in reply basically that the Apostles did this because it is not in our current bent human nature for any of us (including Christians) to always behave properly (awake and sober).

That was my point about your view. He would be understood as saying we should take care to be ready to meet our Maker, "lest" (in some translations) we be caught "sleeping" or "drunk" like most non-Christians (sleeping and not sober being a ref to a state of unrighteousness). Since it is not natural, the Apostles is warning them to take care, LEST they as Christians be caught (like others behaving improperly) when the call to face our Maker comes (whether that be the final trumpet or our death does not matter).

So my initial point was there would be no need to worry if one had certitude one was "saved" because asleep or awake, drunk or sober, the claim is one is "saved" so ready to meet your Maker.

Have heard some evangelicals say things like - well it would mean getting fewer treasures or fewer jewels in your crown to be "caught" by surprise, so Saint Paul was warning them so they would not lose treasures in Heaven rather than the idea they be caught not ready like many non-Christians.
Even had a EP small group leader pressuring me once during my TULIP days, to take on a small group leader role for having weekly meetings at my house. He pulled the treasures/jewels in my crown bit. My wife then and I were not comfortable and did not want to hold weekly meetings in our home. I finally got so annoyed I actually told him in front of everybody, that if I am of the elect then I will be happy to be in Heaven with just a beanie on my head. He stopped asking.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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Q: Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

DEFINITIONS:
"True born again BELIEVERS" = spiritually changed / saved per John 3 / Ephesians 2.
"spiritual POSITION" = How God views each person
"in Christ" = spiritually baptized into the "Body of Christ

I would like to point out some problems with your first definition:

Firstly, true born-again believers, by the nature of the term, must BELIEVE. Without faith, they are not a believer - regardless of whether they once believed or not. *Believers* cannot lose their position in Christ, but ex-believers or former believers are not believers.

John 3:16 and many other passages also point this out - only those who believe (present active participle) shall not perish but hold (present active participle) eternal life.

Romans 1:16, which you also quote, says this as well: the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes (present active participle).

Second, salvation is not merely a past event. Rather, salvation is one of the 'already and not yet' concepts in scripture. Different verses say we 'have been' saved (I Cor 6:11, Tit 3:4-5, etc.), that we are 'being saved' (II Cor 2:15, I Pet 1:8-9, Phil 2:12-13, etc.) and yet others that we 'will be' saved (Rom 5:9-10, I Thess 5:8, I Cor 3:15, I Cor 5:5, etc.) A verse using salvation in the past tense doesn't contradict or overturn verses using salvation in the present reality or future fulfillment - for we are saved from the moment we first believe, continue to be saved through faith, and finally receive our final salvation from death at the judgement when we receive new, eternal bodies.

Due to these problems with that first definition, your argument in many places assumes its own conclusions, such as 'once a spirit-led BELIEVER...ALWAYS a spirit-led BELIEVER."

Beyond the problem with the first definition, many of your support verses do not seem to be saying what you claim.

Eph 2:8: Your argument implies that faith is the gift here, and that no one can then lose faith. Yet Eph 2:8, by its grammar, is saying that the gift of God is salvation, by grace and through faith. No man could work for this - salvation is of God both in its offering and its process. Even that we are allowed to be saved through faith is a gift.

What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?

Ephesians 1:13: Eph 1:13 needs to be taken along with Eph 1:14. The seal of the Holy Spirit is not to make sure we maintain faith, but is specifically the seal is a legal guarantee, along with a deposit, that those who are God’s possession (believers) will be granted the final inheritance at the judgment. These are legal terms - they say nothing of making a believer do anything or staying in a contract or never rejecting the Spirit, but are rather about God keeping His promises. If someone enters, but then rejects, the new covenant, then they also reject the seal of the Holy Spirit and Jesus as their guarantor. They cannot claim any of the promises of God, such as eternal life, for they no longer have faith, and God only wills that those who believe (continuously, not in the past) in Christ receive eternal life (John 3:13-18.)


Can a Christian 'give back' salvation?

You also claim that "Once a SEALED BELIEVER...always a SEALED BELIEVER. Once God gives you SPIRITUAL POSITION, He does not change it." Yet there are many scriptures that directly contradict this view that one must continue to believe if they started:

II Pet 2:20-22: These people had once had personal relationships with Christ (epignosis). They had escaped the world (apopheugó) - a feat only Christ's deliverance can achieve. Then, they went back again and were once more entangled with the world and overcome (héttaomai).

Luke 8:13, Matt 13:20-21: These received (welcomed) the word with joy like the believers of 1 Thess 2:13. They had no root, so could not endure through trials, and died like the foolish man of Luke 6:46-49.

Lk 8:14, Matt 13:22: These heard the word (Rom 10:14-17, Matt 11:15, ) but what they heard in the beginning did not remain in them (I John 2:24). They were 'choked/cut off because joined with' the world (sumpnigó). Unproductive faith that returns to the world is talked about it James 1:19-27, John 15:1-4, II Pet 1:3-11, Luke 9:62, etc.

Luke 12:42-46: The servant of Christ who does not wait for His coming will be 'assigned a place with the unbelievers'. This is like the foolish virgins (Matt 25:1-13).

1 Tim 1:18-20: Timothy is exhorted to hold fast (echó) to faith, the same faith others have 'thrust away from themselves' (apótheó) and suffered shipwreck (nauageó - to break, to come to ruin, to suffer shipwreck (II Cor 11:25 - Paul was in the actual ship before it broke, it was not an illusion)) concerning their faith.

Rom 11:17-24: Another branch and vine analogy, ref. Is 18:1-7. The Israelites did not remain, and were broken off. The Gentile believers were grafted in - but Rom 11:20-22 makes it quite clear we should not be smug in this newfound position, for God will not spare us if we do not continue with Him!

And others:
John 15:1-8, 1 Tim 4:1-15, II Tim 2:12, Heb 3:12-19, Heb 6:4-6, Heb 10:23-39, James 1:2-12, James 1:22-25, James 5:19-20, II Pet 1:8-11, I Peter 5:8, Matt 10:22, Matt 18:21-35, Matt 24:13, Gal 5:2-12, I John 2:24, Rom 11:17-24, Rev 2:5-11, Rev 3:5, Rev 3:11, Rev 22:19, etc.)

More on some of these verses:
What exactly does "fall away" mean in Heb 6:6?
Does Hebrews 10:26 mean that a believer can lose salvation?
What does it mean in 1 Tim 4:1 that 'some will depart from faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits?'


2 Timothy 3:15 says that salvation comes only through faith, and Lk 6 is a wonderful parable of the importance of building on the rock (Christ). However, neither support your conclusion that once a believer is on the rock he must always remain on the rock. Jesus' point in Lk 6:47 is quite different! It is not those who once-upon-a-time heard him and acted who are on the rock, but those who accompany him (present middle), hear him (present active participle) and act (present active participle)! It is an ongoing state of being to be on the rock - hearing and acting as you accompany Christ.


It is true that nothing can take *believers* out of the hand of God. Yet as shown in the many passages above, not all people who receive the word with joy and believe, passing from death into life, actually continue in belief. Many later reject faith, and hence all the promises of God, for various reasons. Some reasons given in scripture are returning to the law to achieve their own righteousness, love of sin, giving into persecution, the cares of the world, etc.

It is true that believers need not fear loss of position. However, believers should have a healthy fear (not an obsession) of turning back to unbelief, which would come with loss of position. There are many warnings in scripture to this effect:

Rom 11:17-22: If we do not continue in God's kindness by standing in faith, God will not spare us and will break us off.

John 15: If we do not remain in Christ, we will be cut off and burned.

II Pet 2:20-22: If we escape the world through a personal relationship with Christ (Epignosis) but then return to the world, our final state is worse than that of an unbeliever.

Gal 5:1-2: If we do not stand firm in Christ, but return to slavery to sin (such as returning to righteousness via the law), Christ is of no value to us.

I Tim 1:19: Hold on to faith, do not reject faith and consequently suffer utter ruin.

Col 1:21-23: We are reconciled to God through Christ, but only if we continue in faith.

Since rejecting faith must be done willingly, it isn't something that we need live in fear of that we will accidentally do. Nor should we worry about losing our position by stumbling in sin. However, there should be a healthy acknowledgment by all Christians that by God's grace we are saved through faith - so we should hold fast to that faith and remain in Christ, rather than rejecting God's promises and trying to achieve salvation by our own works or means.
 
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