Can there be morality without God?

[ThinkForYourself]

... What the rest of you people think I couldn't care less. The day atheists do my bible reading for me is the day I might as well burn it. The bible also says: Do not answer a fool according to his folly or you will be like him yourself. Do you really think I expect or intend to change your minds on any of this? Dream on.

That's because dogma controls your thinking, and no matter how much reason and evidence disproves your dogma, you will close your eyes, plug your ears, and refuse to accept it. And you think that everyone is like you because you can't comprehend any other way of thinking.

Every atheists I know would change their mind if evidence and reason demonstrated that a God existed.

 

[Section10]

Another meaningless opinion. I make my choice because a deity in charge is the best deal out there. Without that, all you have is the abyss. You can choose whichever way you like and so will I.

 

[BL2KTN]

Sir, you flatter me! I have a surviving younger sister who will turn 80 in December. I can assure you that her prosaic acumen leaves mine 'in the shade', so to speak. I can also assure you that my own abilities have dulled considerably over the years.

But thank you for the compliment.

Well, I hope to see you posting for decades to come! The wisdom of our elders is greatly coveted.

Blue lightning asked me how I saw it and I told him. That's all. What the rest of you people think I couldn't care less.

Does your god teach you to devalue people he created?

The day atheists do my bible reading for me is the day I might as well burn it. The bible also says: Do not answer a fool according to his folly or you will be like him yourself. Do you really think I expect or intend to change your minds on any of this? Dream on.

Perhaps they wish to assist you in escaping your delusions.

For Blue lightning
I mean everyone has their own take on the laws of God and I do think revelation evolves to an extent even if it doesn't contradict itself.

If the laws of God are representative of his character, does the character of God evolve?

The bible is riddled with admonitions to care for the poor. People just aren't very good at it. Back then nearly everyone was destitute poor. Those who were rich weren't interested in spreading any wealth around. People and governments are much better equipped to care for others today and yet people are still in want.

Why did Yahweh spend more time ordering genocides than advocating for just economic systems. Was ancient Israel not a theocracy?

There are other forces at work in this world besides just forces for good. Everyone serves somebody.

Who do the Jains serve?

Another meaningless opinion.

Are all opinions meaningless?

I make my choice because a deity in charge is the best deal out there.

I make my choice based on evidence for truth. Does truth trump the best deal? And what if the deity you believe in is abhorrent? Is that the best deal? What if it's a five year old who left the computer running and you're just inside the game? Is that the best deal?

You can choose whichever way you like and so will I.

No. Normal people cannot choose what they believe. I'm not sure abnormal people can believe it either. Belief is not a choice. If I told you I would set you on fire unless you believe the sun is made of ice, there would be nothing you could do about it. You cannot believe that which goes against convincing evidence.

 

[Section10]

You're not getting what I'm saying. By virtue of your position, you cut your own legs from underneath yourself. Where you stand, nothing means anything. Everything is a choice. If it weren't there would be no accountability and no meaning. The only place meaning is lost is where you are. You're not saying anything at all.

 

[BL2KTN]

You're not getting what I'm saying. By virtue of your position, you cut your own legs from underneath yourself. Where you stand, nothing means anything. Everything is a choice. If it weren't there would be no accountability and no meaning. The only place meaning is lost is where you are. You're not saying anything at all.

How do you know this to be true?

 

[stevevw]

What does that mean?

Does the bible convey God's word or not?

It means that even though it is Gods word we have to take into consideration that it is humans who are then writing things down. So it will have their perspective of things. An experience of God maybe expressed differently by different people. Just like people describe an event. Some may emphasizes a particular point or even exaggerate a point. But it doesn't mean that the event didn't happen. Atheists tend to try and put Gods word in a small box and say it has to be perfect like God is controlling humans like a robot.

Instead of complaining, please show how God's genocidal acts described in the bible are taken out of context, so that they really aren't genocidal acts.

I am sure I have debated this before with you. Maybe not but it seems most debates end up at this stage which to be honest was far from what I was talking about with my original point. As I said Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and in Jesus we can see all of God then Jesus is the same as God. Jesus has no sin and we have a perfect example of how to live. Going back and trying to make out that God is evil with ancient stories where that are hard to understand and making that over ride the central belief of Christianity is a bit far fetched.

I'm betting you can't.

I could go into these stories like I have done many times before. But what ends up happening is I will show the context and prove that what you and others are saying is wrong and then you will bring up another example and then another. You have already decided that God is evil so you will believe what you want to believe and see things they way you want to see things. Nothing is going to change that. So rather than start playing that merry go round game I will link some other posts that have covered the same ground.

PS, I have had a quick look over all my posts and I cant see any obvious posts along the lines of God in the old testament. The problem is form memory is that debates on this topic are often closed as it gets way off topic and heated. But I am sure if you look you will find examples elsewhere on this site.

 

[BL2KTN]

It means that even though it is Gods word we have to take into consideration that it is humans who are then writing things down. So it will have their perspective of things. An experience of God maybe expressed differently by different people. Just like people describe an event. Some may emphasizes a particular point or even exaggerate a point. But it doesn't mean that the event didn't happen. Atheists tend to try and put Gods word in a small box and say it has to be perfect like God is controlling humans like a robot.

Who decides what is from God, what is exaggerated, what comes from humans, etc? What is the criteria?

 

[ThinkForYourself]

It means that even though it is Gods word we have to take into consideration that it is humans who are then writing things down. So it will have their perspective of things. An experience of God maybe expressed differently by different people. Just like people describe an event. Some may emphasizes a particular point or even exaggerate a point. But it doesn't mean that the event didn't happen. .

Right, so someone exaggerated and said Jesus came back to life.

And you have no idea if anything you believe is true or not.

Atheists tend to try and put Gods word in a small box and say it has to be perfect like God is controlling humans like a robot.

The two statements Ive quoted shows how silly biblical belief is. You admittedly have no idea what parts of the bible are make belief and which parts aren't. In fact you admittedly have no idea if the entire bible is made up or not, yet you base your life on what is a demonstrably immoral document.

I would say you can't have morality with the Christian God. With the Christian God, all you have is obedience, like a dog who is told not to jump on the chesterfield.

PS, I have had a quick look over all my posts and I cant see any obvious posts along the lines of God in the old testament. The problem is form memory is that debates on this topic are often closed as it gets way off topic and heated. But I am sure if you look you will find examples elsewhere on this site.

OK, I'll drop it. You can have the last word.

 

[SteveB28]

It means that even though it is Gods word we have to take into consideration that it is humans who are then writing things down.

This would lead to the conclusion, then, that everything written is suspect. Not only the parts that Christians so desperately try to avoid from the scriptures, but the 'good' parts too. The tales of virgins giving birth, of men rising from the dead; these too will have been written from a 'human perspective'. If you claim that this makes a difference in understanding the distasteful, it must also cast doubt on the supernatural.

in Jesus we can see all of God then Jesus is the same as God.

Which presents an enormous problem for you. Either your God had an amazing change of heart from the time of the Old Testament to the New, or we conclude that the scripture writers chose to portray him in two entirely different lights. Which is it, do you think?

Jesus has no sin and we have a perfect example of how to live. Going back and trying to make out that God is evil with ancient stories where that are hard to understand and making that over ride the central belief of Christianity is a bit far fetched.

Except for the fact that those stories are there for all of us to read! Ancient or not.

 

[stevevw]

Who decides what is from God, what is exaggerated, what comes from humans, etc? What is the criteria?

Its a number of things and not one thing in itself. This is where others who want to dispute God will use one aspect in isolation. That is never used to be fair even for non religious things.

So it will be other sections of the bible for example. The bible is written across 100s if not thousands of years by different people so it can be checked to see if it is supported by internal evidence. The bible has many different ways in which it is written. Some parts are biographies, some are stories, some are parables which are not an actual even but an illustration to teach a lesson. Some are accounts that may or may not include some historical references. So we have to use different methods of checking. Some we have no way of checking apart form comparing them against aprtas we can check to see if they are consistent.

So for the parts that may have some historical connections we can check to see if this stands up by comparing it to the historical data for those times. Like the type things they used or references to name places or people. These can be checked against non biblical evidence or archeology finds ect. Looking back thousands of years to see if what was claimed that God said and done is very hard to prove either way. If you dont believe in God then you are going to say its all myth. But as believers we can check out what God was intending and what God is like from other parts of the bible that may be directly related or indirectly related. This will add some clarity to what was meant by the stories.

The bible tells us to check things out and test them. As humans we should use our reason and logic as well. But in the end a belief in God and his divine nature is something that will not always have direct proof so we need some faith and trust. Its not blind faith as we still can check things out as well as look to our own experiences with how God is working in our lives and others around us. All this added together can give us a pretty good understanding as well as support for what God represents in our lives. But non believers dont look into it at this level. They just dismiss it as myth and delusion. There are those who get deluded by religion or anything in life. But that doesn't mean that God is not real and works in peoples lives. You just choose to look at one side and not the other.

 

[stevevw]

This would lead to the conclusion, then, that everything written is suspect. Not only the parts that Christians so desperately try to avoid from the scriptures, but the 'good' parts too. The tales of virgins giving birth, of men rising from the dead; these too will have been written from a 'human perspective'. If you claim that this makes a difference in understanding the distasteful, it must also cast doubt on the supernatural.

You say that because those claims are of the supernatural. So apart from faith in God people who are atheists or have worldly thinking will only believe in the things they can see and touch. They will want evidence they can test. Some will be over skeptical and dismiss everything that is slightly supernatural or not able to be proven by conventional methods. But all that doesn't mean that there can be the supernatural and a God. Or Ghosts or other things that are beyond the physics of our reality. Science even talks of these things nowadays. Because some of the evidence points towards something going on beyond our reality. Yet many are not to quick to dismiss this and will consider all sorts of things like multiverses, hologram dimensions, worm holes and time travel.

But the point I was making is not so much for whether an event is supernatural or not. But that people will see an event differently because they are human. So if there was a supernatural event each person would interpret that in their view and that is the human filter I am talking about. Just because people will have different views and may even exaggerate or contradict each doesn't mean the event didn't happen. You have to ask yourself why did the people say that someone rose from the dead. Why did people say that Jesus did miracles in that time. Normally people dont come up with something completely false out of the blue. It is normally based on a real event even if you say it was exaggerated. There were many events like this so put together you have to ask why so many and in different places and witnessed by different people. Why did it last and affect people so strongly. Its not just about the isolated event. You have to see things in the context of the whole picture.

Which presents an enormous problem for you. Either your God had an amazing change of heart from the time of the Old Testament to the New, or we conclude that the scripture writers chose to portray him in two entirely different lights. Which is it, do you think?

Or you dont understand anything about the Christian God and how His realtionship worked throughout time with humans. Or you are seeing the so called stories in the old testament in a negative light in the first place showing an evil God when you have misunderstood what the stories were about. So this would then change everything. The Old testament God would then be more in line with Jesus. It would just show a different side to God. Before Jesus there was no salvation and redemption for sins. We didnt have the transforming blood of Christs sacrifice on the cross. So the old testament is all about establishing the laws and the punishment that gos with it. It is to show that we are all sinners before God. It is that show that we need the transforming blood of Jesus to save us from sin and death.

Except for the fact that those stories are there for all of us to read! Ancient or not.

And that is why you have to read then with the New testament and Jesus in mind. Its like only reading the first part of a two part book. You cant understand the context of the movie until you read the whole book and both parts. Jesus fulfills over 300 prophesies from the old testament. The old testament is about sin entering the world, humans being separated from God. The laws being established to show are sinners and the need for Jesus to save us from that sin and death.

But there is a lot of detail in that that needs to be understood as well to really understand the context and meanings of those stories in the old testament. For example the stories about the Israelites battles with the Canaanites is just about some isolated fight between two nations. It goes back 100s of years before that with the Hebrews as slaves in Egypt and it goes way beyond that to establish the promised land in which Gods people would settle and prepare the way for the coming Messiah who came out of that land. But if you were to just read that story in isolation you would see the context of the whole picture. If you didnt know the New testament and the coming of Jesus you wouldn't know the context either. Much of what is done in the old testament is for the coming of Jesus and the salvation of mankind.

 

[SteveB28]

You say that because those claims are of the supernatural.

No, I say that because I agreed with you. I agreed that those stories told in the past were done so by humans who often allowed their own fears, prejudices and hopes to shape their writing. You say this is the reason behind the actions of your God being portrayed as being so cruel, harsh and bloodthirsty. Very well. Using the same logic, we can also assume that their depictions of the supernatural being equally untrustworthy.

I agree with you.

But the point I was making is not so much for whether an event is supernatural or not.

That's right. The point you were making is that those ancient writers allowed their personal biases to influence their writing.

I agree with you. We shouldn't accept any of it as being 'gospel'.

And that is why you have to read then with the New testament and Jesus in mind. Its like only reading the first part of a two part book. You cant understand the context of the movie until you read the whole book and both parts.

Your problem here is an obvious one. How would those human writers of the Old Testament have any idea as to what their counterparts, centuries into the future, were going to write?

It goes back 100s of years before that with the Hebrews as slaves in Egypt

Another formidable problem here. There is not even a skerrick of evidence to suggest an exodus of more than half a million Jews from Egypt. It is a myth. A myth that even the Jews no longer seek. I clearly remember David benGurion calling for the 'deeds' to Israel being discovered. They never have been. Jewish scholars no longer believe they exist.

 

[stevevw]

Right, so someone exaggerated and said Jesus came back to life.

Maybe but how do we know. You quickly assume the side of it not happening so that shows where you are coming from. As a non believer you will say that. You dont believe in anything supernatural. You dont have any faith in God in the first place. We have more than one person saying Jesus came back to life so it would have to be a mass exaggeration.

And you have no idea if anything you believe is true or not.

I have faith and faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.Hebrews 11:1. So as the bible says it is an assurance. Not a maybe or a unsure thing but an assurance and a confidence. That is why I can stand on Gods word and know that I am OK. But you will not know this because you dont have that faith in God in the first place. So how can you be so confident and assured that there is no God. If there is a God then how can you be so assured that what He has said is not true. You cant and so just as much as you can claim that I can't know what God has said is false. You also can't know whether it might be true true according to the way you measure things.

The two statements Ive quoted shows how silly biblical belief is. You admittedly have no idea what parts of the bible are make belief and which parts aren't. In fact you admittedly have no idea if the entire bible is made up or not, yet you base your life on what is a demonstrably immoral document.

Where have I said that I dont know if the bible is true or not. You have injected what you think into the situation and changed it. You have misunderstood what I said and therefor have assumed I said something. But that assumption from you is based on a what you believe not what I believe.

I would say you can't have morality with the Christian God. With the Christian God, all you have is obedience, like a dog who is told not to jump on the chesterfield.

Now you are doing all my thinking. Not just mine but all Christians. And they complain about Christians doing other peoples thinking. I am very assured of what is right and what is wrong in my life. I understand why I do things and its not just about obedience. Though we all are obedient to certain things in life. Gods laws and morals make very good sense. They allow me to avoid a whole lot of trouble. They give me better outcomes such as better physical and mental health. They give me better spiritual health which is missing in secular society. We are a three dimensional person with physical, mental and spiritual sides. I see Gods handy work in my life and others all the time. This is testimony to Gods work being good for a person.

OK, I'll drop it. You can have the last word.

Umm some how I am not sure that will be the case.

 

[BL2KTN]

But all that doesn't mean that there can be the supernatural and a God. Or Ghosts or other things that are beyond the physics of our reality. Science even talks of these things nowadays.

Post just one scientific paper about ghosts. Just one. Otherwise you're lying. And is lying what it takes to support your beliefs?

Before Jesus there was no salvation and redemption for sins. We didnt have the transforming blood of Christs sacrifice on the cross.

Who decided it took blood to atone sins?

Jesus fulfills over 300 prophesies from the old testament.

He fulfills not a single one. That's just a bogus belief from bogus propaganda.

Maybe but how do we know. You quickly assume the side of it not happening so that shows where you are coming from.

If you don't know something to be true, the correct position is to wait for evidence before believing it to be. Nobody in their right mind decides to believe outrageous claims while at the same time saying "how do we know." This is akin to the alien abduction believers.

We have more than one person saying Jesus came back to life so it would have to be a mass exaggeration.

Where are the eye witness accounts?

I have faith and faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

Faith is what is used when evidence does not exist. Faith is an excuse to believe that which has no reason to believe it. Faith is a good excuse to believe a wrong thing.

But you will not know this because you dont have that faith in God in the first place. So how can you be so confident and assured that there is no God. If there is a God then how can you be so assured that what He has said is not true.

So much so wrong here. How do you know your god is the God? How do you determine what He said when you've already said you can't?

Gods laws and morals make very good sense.

Slavery and genocide make very good sense???????!

 

[stevevw]

Post just one scientific paper about ghosts. Just one. Otherwise you're lying. And is lying what it takes to support your beliefs?

I clarified what I meant by science supporting things that have all the hallmarks of the supernatural. I mentioned these things in my last post. Things like hologram worlds and multi verses, worm holes and time travel. These are similar to ghosts and other dimensions of the spirit world. Even time travel is always used in science fiction with movies like back to the future. But of course science wont admit supporting supernatural things because that goes against everything they believe. But if you listen to some of their language especially since the age of quantum physics and it is sounding very out of this world. They are using more of this language because they have to to explain what they are seeing. It is going beyond the normal physics and logic.

Who decided it took blood to atone sins?

God did. That was the only way to save us from sin and death.

He fulfills not a single one. That's just a bogus belief from bogus propaganda.

What makes you say that. You say it like you know 100% that you are right. You would have to be God Himself to know that. John the baptist fulfills one of the prophesies of proclaiming Jesus was coming and to prepare the way. He was beheaded by Herod Antipas and is a real figure in history. When Jesus was crucified He fulfilled many prophesies as well.
Isaiah 53:3-6
3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Messiah would be tortured to death: Psalm 22
There were actually 365 prophecies about Jesus.
365 Messianic Prophecies

If you don't know something to be true, the correct position is to wait for evidence before believing it to be. Nobody in their right mind decides to believe outrageous claims while at the same time saying "how do we know." This is akin to the alien abduction believers.

I believe that we all do know God is true. People have just blocked God out with all the white noise of atheists thinking. The bible says its written in our hearts. We see it in His creation. When I look at the universe and all its celestial bodies I dont think that it all blew into perfect place. I see Gods work. How all the laws of gravity and dark energy, space and time work is really beyond our understanding. We think we know but that is just a man made explanation because man thinks everything has to have a logical reason. But we are finding now as we get closer to the tiny world where something can come into existence from nothing that there are strange things that happen beyond the explainable.

Jesus says the only way to be saved is by faith. Salvation is simple and you dont need to be smart or rich to receive it. But it requires an action and commitment from the person. That is to trust God, believe that what He said is true and to ask Jesus into your life. That isn't hard but for some it is hard because it demands a giving up of power and a trusting in something beyond what they can control. It asks to trust something that cannot be tested before it is received. The thinking of this world bases everything on seeing is believing. But not everything in life is like that. If you are not willing to trust and believe in the first place then you will never know.

Where are the eye witness accounts?

There are many in the bible.

Faith is what is used when evidence does not exist. Faith is an excuse to believe that which has no reason to believe it. Faith is a good excuse to believe a wrong thing.

People use faith when they trust a friend to do the right thing. There is an element of faith in a lot of things we do. We trust and have faith in our partners. We have trust that they will be faithful to us. We cannot know for sure. Like I said we all know of Gods creation and it is built into us. So we are without excuse.
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

These invisible power are the laws that scientists try to explain. They are in the world of quantum physics which scientists cannot explain. They are in what scientist call dark energy and matter. They keep the universe together and stop the planets and stars flying around and going out of control. They are in a new born baby and all the animals and nature. They are in the many perfect constants that make up our universe and make planet earth inhabitable for life.

So much so wrong here. How do you know your god is the God? How do you determine what He said when you've already said you can't?

How is it so wrong to be using the same logic that you want to use to say there is no God. The same logic can make a case that you cant prove there is no God either. Many of the great non believing minds say that a case to either prove or disprove God cannot be made. So I am just using the same logic.

Slavery and genocide make very good sense???????!

I have been through this before many times. A case can be made to show that God did not want slavery as an ideal but accepted that it was done in the world of the ancient Israelites. But what He did do was set the process to change things so that it was regulated and eventually stopped. The other thing is that most of the so called slavery was not the type of slavery that many non believers like to focus on. It was indentured servants who often found a better life by offering themselves as payment for debt or in punishment for crimes. The practice was highly regulated and there were punishments for those who did wrong.

The irony is that slavery including the bad type was practiced by the rest of the world then. It was included in all the known history of what we have been taught about other civilizations. Yet never is it so scrutinized and condemned than when it is referred to in the bible. In fact it is hardly mentioned as bad in history and in some cases is seen by many historians as necessary and good to build the ancient world.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

This thread topic reminded me of #1 on the list:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNjEbPfc2d0

 

[Eudaimonist]

I believe that we all do know God is true. People have just blocked God out with all the white noise of atheists thinking. The bible says its written in our hearts. We see it in His creation. When I look at the universe and all its celestial bodies I dont think that it all blew into perfect place. I see Gods work.

That's just your perspective. It's certainly not mine. I see an amazing natural godless universe.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[stevevw]

That's just your perspective. It's certainly not mine. I see an amazing natural godless universe.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Thats fair enough and you are entitled to your beliefs.

 

[BL2KTN]

I clarified what I meant by science supporting things that have all the hallmarks of the supernatural. I mentioned these things in my last post. Things like hologram worlds and multi verses, worm holes and time travel. These are similar to ghosts and other dimensions of the spirit world.

You clarified, and you're terribly wrong. Science has not discovered and is not talking about the possibility of ghosts being real. You and I both know it. Please stop pretending false information supports your beliefs.

But if you listen to some of their language especially since the age of quantum physics and it is sounding very out of this world. They are using more of this language because they have to to explain what they are seeing. It is going beyond the normal physics and logic.

This is stupid. You need to study quantum physics because it apparently does not mean what you think it means. Probabilities for subatomic movements do not suddenly make ghosts appear. I have seen this from more than one poster now where you guys think the word "quantum" means whataver apes*** crazy ideas are suddenly true when it is obviously and ridiculously false. Never a quantum physics reference though... oh no, we don't do real science.

God did. That was the only way to save us from sin and death.

So Yahweh saved us from sin that he introduced to us by creating Satan, and from death which he decided was the punishment for those sins he introduced by creating Satan. And the only way to do that was through blood?

So when a child takes a cookie from the cookie jar without permission, why then do you not require the child to sacrifice a goat to you?

What makes you say that. You say it like you know 100% that you are right. You would have to be God Himself to know that. John the baptist fulfills one of the prophesies of proclaiming Jesus was coming and to prepare the way. He was beheaded by Herod Antipas and is a real figure in history. When Jesus was crucified He fulfilled many prophesies as well.
Isaiah 53:3-6
3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Messiah would be tortured to death: Psalm 22
There were actually 365 prophecies about Jesus.
365 Messianic Prophecies

The end of your Isaiah prophecy is this:

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Does God give Jesus (who is supposedly God) a portion for a reward, and does he divide Jesus' spoil with others?

Also, your 365 list is ridiculous - I stopped reading after the first two were blatantly wrong. Genesis 3:15 says nothing of a virgin birth and Genesis 3:15 doesn't say a thing about Satan.

I believe that we all do know God is true.

Which god?

People have just blocked God out with all the white noise of atheists thinking.

I believe in a god, just not your genocidal, enslaving, raping Yahweh.

The bible says its written in our hearts. We see it in His creation. When I look at the universe and all its celestial bodies I dont think that it all blew into perfect place. I see Gods work. How all the laws of gravity and dark energy, space and time work is really beyond our understanding. We think we know but that is just a man made explanation because man thinks everything has to have a logical reason. But we are finding now as we get closer to the tiny world where something can come into existence from nothing that there are strange things that happen beyond the explainable.

I think God is real. I don't think your fictional, Canaanite god of horrific acts is real. And thank God for that.

Jesus says the only way to be saved is by faith.

Really? Here are some quotes from Jesus:

"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."
"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."
"If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Why are you teaching something that so obviously goes against what Jesus is recorded as saying?

People use faith when they trust a friend to do the right thing. There is an element of faith in a lot of things we do. We trust and have faith in our partners. We have trust that they will be faithful to us. We cannot know for sure. Like I said we all know of Gods creation and it is built into us. So we are without excuse.
Romans 1:20

Paul's opinion is wrong.

These invisible power are the laws that scientists try to explain. They are in the world of quantum physics which scientists cannot explain. They are in what scientist call dark energy and matter. They keep the universe together and stop the planets and stars flying around and going out of control. They are in a new born baby and all the animals and nature. They are in the many perfect constants that make up our universe and make planet earth inhabitable for life.

I see. But of course, you had to tell me about dark energy and matter, quantum physics, etc... because the bible couldn't. The bible was written by men and the men didn't know about any of these things. If the bible had been written by God, then we might have seen some of this stuff (and surely things we still wouldn't know about). But we don't.

How is it so wrong to be using the same logic that you want to use to say there is no God.

How is it so wrong to look at my religious symbol to see my actual world view?

I have been through this before many times. A case can be made to show that God did not want slavery as an ideal but accepted that it was done in the world of the ancient Israelites.

Oh, a case can be made. I see. So your Yahweh had 66 books to say "slaver is bad," but he never did, so now all you've got is a case. I see. So 66 books, and your version of god can't get one of the most fundamental ethical/moral things right, so you have to try to make a case for him.

And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. <- What your god says about slaves.

The practice was highly regulated and there were punishments for those who did wrong.

So beating a slave who is nothing more than your money until the slave is unconscious and dies a wee later... totally cool with you? It's fine with your god.

The irony is that slavery including the bad type was practiced by the rest of the world then. It was included in all the known history of what we have been taught about other civilizations. Yet never is it so scrutinized and condemned than when it is referred to in the bible. In fact it is hardly mentioned as bad in history and in some cases is seen by many historians as necessary and good to build the ancient world.

If you can beat a thirteen year old slave girl to the point she barely hangs onto life for a few days, but dies a week later, and your god says there's not a single punishment for that...

... then you belong to a wicked religion, disgusting to the point of revulsion.

Thank God your morals are better than the Yahweh you pretend is perfect.

 

[stevevw]

double post, damn edit button.