Can theistic evolutionists be saved?

[Bushido216]

I know exactly what I' talking about. Guys like you make me shutter with what you do to the bible.

You change everything. You think the linage of Jesus is false. You think Paul was out to lunch when he confirms the OT when he said man was fashioned from the dust...once again, you don't trust the bible.

Yeah, see, I just have a question about the lineage of Jesus. Everyone gets all excited about Jesus having a direct line... but if we are all descended from a single man, don't we all have a straight line back to Adam? What's so special?

Unless! Everybody meant a spiritual lineage... hmm... now that would make sense.

 

[Bushido216]

To answer the original question, it is strikingly obvious (albeit through my conservative, fundamental, "yec", literal bible-believing, God-fearing, close-minded self) that ALL of Adam's descendants can be saved.

What one chooses to believe about the Creation does give away their reference point for what they deem important. To the YEC, the Bible is everything, to the TE, the Bible is an accessory.

Most all of us know that it is by grace we are saved through faith, and that not of ourselves it is the gift of God.

And faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Also, faith is substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Scripture references available on request.

Good thing that most Theo-Evo's consider the Bible a spiritual guide and a model for how to live our lives...

 

[Ark Guy]

Just a reminder....

Those who do not adhere to the Nicene Creed in it's entirety, are not permitted to post in the Christians Only forums, as per rule #6.

Interesting...if you don't conform to the Nicene creed...your not a christian?

Is that what your saying Bear? Hmmmmm

 

[Ark Guy]

Um, instead of just snipping the Nicene Creed, read it in it's entirety. You will see that it does say that through Him, (Christ), all things were made.

Which means Christ created all things..duh.

God the Father part of the Trinity didn't do the creating. The bible is very clear that jesus MADE ALL things.


COL 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
COL 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Now Bear, just what part of "By him all things were made" don't you understand? Does it say by God the Father..or is it talking about Jesus Christ?

 

[Ark Guy]

Yeah, see, I just have a question about the lineage of Jesus. Everyone gets all excited about Jesus having a direct line... but if we are all descended from a single man, don't we all have a straight line back to Adam? What's so special?

Unless! Everybody meant a spiritual lineage... hmm... now that would make sense.

Why would a spiritual linage make sense?

The thing you should understand about the linage of Jesus is that it was the linage of jewish Kings. This means Jesus had/has full rights to the throne.

But of course the theo-evos king was just a figment of our imagination.

 

[TheBear]

Official Reminder to All -

Your views and beliefs will be better recieved, appreciated, and respected, even by those who don't necissarily agree with you, if you stop treating those who disagree with you, like pieces of garbage worthy of disrespect. No one here is in any way superior to the next. We are all equals at this round table of discussion.

I have been quite lenient thus far. No one here has been issued any official warnings. (At least not by me.)

I will not tolerate ant further ad hominems, cheap shots or anything that shows disrespect towards other members. The knuckle dragging, club over the head method of discussion will cease. We are better than that. Any further such behavior, by any member, will result in official warnings.

 

[Bonhoffer]

As long as someone beleives that God made the world (in some way or other) and that Jesus died for their Sins then they shall be saved.

I'm a theistic evolutionist and I know I am saved because of my encounter with the Holy Spirit.

There is no evidence in the Bible that only those who accept the Bible as 100% true or only those who take the Bible as literal will be saved. This would be silly. We were saved by accepting Jesus Christ as our saviour not for our veiw on a book in the Old Testament. God wants as many people saved as possible, so hes not going to deny salvation just because someone questioned the meaning of one bit of scripture. If this was true then hardly anyone would go to heaven.

We are saved by having a relationship with the Holy Spirit; for it is written:

Romans 10
9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

So if the book of Romans is the Word of God then God would be breaking his word if he denied salvation to theistic evolutionists.

 

[Bushido216]

I wonder who voted for no...

 

[lucaspa]

Nicene Creed

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
...through him all things were made.

That's what I consider the core tenets of Christianity.

I note that nowhere does it say how were things made. They could have been made by evolution just as easily as speaking or forming from dust.

 

[Micaiah]

Yeah, see, I just have a question about the lineage of Jesus. Everyone gets all excited about Jesus having a direct line... but if we are all descended from a single man, don't we all have a straight line back to Adam? What's so special?

Unless! Everybody meant a spiritual lineage... hmm... now that would make sense.

What is a spiritual lineage?

 

[Micaiah]

There are a range of people and a range of beliefs held by the members of God's kingdom, and used by God.

Part of the maturing process for the Christian is to learn what God says through His word. If you do not trust the Scriptures, and do not accept the plain teaching of Scripture, you will not mature in the way God desires.

To marry evolution and Christianity a person must apply a mode of interpretation that is plainly wrong. Genesis is a historical record of the beginning. Much of the gospel has its origins in Genesis, and to undermine the truth of Genesis is to undermine the Gospel.

 

[Micaiah]

Which means Christ created all things..duh.

God the Father part of the Trinity didn't do the creating. The bible is very clear that jesus MADE ALL things.


COL 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
COL 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Now Bear, just what part of "By him all things were made" don't you understand? Does it say by God the Father..or is it talking about Jesus Christ?

Ark Guy. Me thinks you are skating on thin ice. Be careful to avoid sarcastic comments. We can answer the false arguments put forward by evolutionists without personal attacks.

 

[Bushido216]

What is a spiritual lineage?

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

I imagine it'd be something to the effect of a straight-line descendance (sp?) from the first organism with a soul.

Anyway, answer my point before bringing up your own, it makes you look alot smarter.

 

[Micaiah]

I don't think I need to say any more. The folly of interpreting the genealogies as an allegory is self evident.

 

[lucaspa]

Part of the maturing process for the Christian is to learn what God says through His word. If you do not trust the Scriptures, and do not accept the plain teaching of Scripture, you will not mature in the way God desires.

There is a list of the "hierarchy of belief" or "stages of belief". Biblical literalism is only the second of 5 stages -- next to the bottom.

To marry evolution and Christianity a person must apply a mode of interpretation that is plainly wrong. Genesis is a historical record of the beginning. Much of the gospel has its origins in Genesis, and to undermine the truth of Genesis is to undermine the Gospel.

1. You have not demonstrated that a non-literal interpretation of the how of Creation is wrong.
2. Genesis cannot be a historical record because Genesis 1 and Genesis 2-3 plainly contradict on several key points. You can't have a contradictory history. You can, however, have a contradictory history when the objective is to tell two complementary, but different, theological points.
3. None of the gospel has its origins in Genesis. All of Genesis could drop right out of the Bible and not affect the Gospel at all. What you need to be true in the OT is the Exodus, not a literal Genesis 1-11. This is where creationism gets in real trouble: illogically tying the ultimate meaning of Jesus' life, death, and Resurrection to a testable, falsified literal reading of Genesis 1-11. It is as if creationists want Christianity to be shown to be wrong! Creationism goes out of its way here to try to make Christianity by wrong.

This is why theistic evolutionists end up defending Christianity from attacks by both sides. The last statement is actually one made by militant atheists! It is a militant atheist statement. Why do you want to do that?

 

[lucaspa]

I don't think I need to say any more. The folly of interpreting the genealogies as an allegory is self evident.

Not allegory. You need to get the different types of non-literal straight.

However, the geneologies can't be interpreted as literal. After all, both of them trace thru Joseph, and the belief is that Joseph is not the father of Jesus anyway!

The theological purpose of the geneologies is:
Get Jesus as a descendent of David so that he can qualify to be the Messiah.

Jesus didn't fit the Jewish idea of what a Messiah should be. So a lot of effort is made by the gospel writers to have Jesus fulfill as many of the "prophecies" as possible. That's why we have the whole census thing to get Mary to Bethlehem. The Messiah was supposed to be from the House of David, so we have two conflicting geneologies to get him into the House of David. But really, the Gospel doesn't depend on this. If the geneologies are totally wrong and Joseph doesn't come from that house, what difference does it make?

 

[Konnie]

I'm a YEC and yes.

 

[lucaspa]

I'm a YEC and yes.

In another thread you said the universe was 11-20 billion years old. That's not a YEC. You need to reconcile your contradictory statements or give up one statement.

 

[marc]

I believe that salvation is not dependent on your belief in origins. I now believe in a young earth, but I was a forgiven, born-again, follower of our Lord Jesus well before I knew there was even a genesis debate. I think that lots of theistic evolutionists give Christ a bad name and I think that lots of young earth creationists give Christ a bad name. But isn't this the way it has always been? Christians beating each other up over doctrines rather than loving the lost.

This is one of satan's best tools, getting Christians to fight and not love the lost.

One thing I have found, unfortunately, as a common thread in almost all "science oriented christians" is their arrogant, I'm right you are wrong attitude.

When Lucaspa and Ark Guy get to heaven, our Lord is going to give them both a big smack on the head, like dad when two brothers are fighting over the front seat of the car when they should have let their sister have it.

I actually forget I'm listening to christians when I read some of these posts.

There was a YECist and a Theo-evo on an island ministering to the same tribe. The YEC prayed to God one night "Lord, I need your help, I can't minister with this theo-evo, I don't believe everything the way he does" God said, " That's ok son, I don't believe everything the way you do, and I still use you"

Brothers,
with love in Christ,

Marc

 

[Didaskomenos]

It is said that the JW's or the Mormons have no salvation because they believe and trust in a false Christ.

Now the Thiestic Evos deny that Christ created the world in six days and deny that Christ made man from the dust and Eve from his side...so, are they following the true Jesus?

Considering that the Theo-Evos need to change so much scripture to make the bible fit with evolutuonism...do they really trust the bible?

I never really did get a good answer on how they can tell the biblical fact form fiction.

It's dangerous to say they have no salvation for that reason. Actually, JW's and Mormons aren't considered Christians™ because they reject a preponderance of the doctrine in the Nicene Creed or other orthodox doctrine. It's up to God to decide which gradation of ignorance concerning Jesus' nature he will tolerate. Surely you don't think you understand Christ fully? What folly! Any reasonable Christian understands that we cannot know everything about Christ, and that no one person doesn't hold some misconception of him in some aspect. So you're saying if we misunderstand one aspect here and there of Jesus' role in Creation, we cannot go to heaven?

Jesus did create the world - he just took his time doing it, and if that's wrong, I trust God is not so trite as to send me to hell. Trusting the Bible isn't even prescribed for salvation in the Bible since it hadn't been compiled at the time of writing (although it is extremely useful in understanding God and his ways).

Is Young-Earth Creationism for you such a Holy Grail (or Ark, as the case may be) that you would deny God's salvation to fellow Christians who interpret the Bible differently?