Can the law or religion save you?

redleghunter · Aug 24, 2018

EmSw said:
So this is a permanent statute for Israel, right?

Yes it was an Old Covenant type or shadow of things to come in Christ Jesus. A lot of this is explained in the Holy Scriptures you reject.

EmSw said:
Do you know of any group of people who still do this today? Isn't a man cleansed from his sins before the Lord when he repents for remission of sins?

It's called the New Covenant.

Question: "What is the New Covenant?"

Answer: The New Covenant (or New Testament) is the promise that God makes with humanity that He will forgive sin and restore fellowship with those whose hearts are turned toward Him. Jesus Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant, and His death on the cross is the basis of the promise (Luke 22:20). The New Covenant was predicted while the Old Covenant was still in effect—the prophets Moses, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel all allude to the New Covenant.

The Old Covenant that God had established with His people required strict obedience to the Mosaic Law. Because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), the Law required that Israel perform daily sacrifices in order to atone for sin. But Moses, through whom God established the Old Covenant, also anticipated the New Covenant. In one of his final addresses to the nation of Israel, Moses looks forward to a time when Israel would be given “a heart to understand” (Deuteronomy 29:4, ESV). Moses predicts that Israel would fail in keeping the Old Covenant (verses 22–28), but he then sees a time of restoration (30:1–5). At that time, Moses says, “The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live” (verse 6). The New Covenant involves a total change of heart so that God’s people are naturally pleasing to Him.

The prophet Jeremiah also predicted the New Covenant. “‘The day will come,’ says the Lord, ‘when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. . . . But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day,’ says the Lord. ‘I will put my law in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people’” (Jeremiah 31:31, 33). Jesus Christ came to fulfill the Law of Moses (Matthew 5:17) and to establish the New Covenant between God and His people. The Old Covenant was written in stone, but the New Covenant is written on our hearts. Entering the New Covenant is made possible only by faith in Christ, who shed His blood to take away the sins of the world (John 1:29). Luke 22:20 relates how Jesus, at the Last Supper, takes the cup and says, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood” (ESV).

The New Covenant is also mentioned in Ezekiel 36:26–27, “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.” Ezekiel lists several aspects of the New Covenant here: a new heart, a new spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit, and true holiness. The Mosaic Law could provide none of these things (see Romans 3:20).

The New Covenant was originally given to Israel and includes a promise of fruitfulness, blessing, and a peaceful existence in the Promised Land. In Ezekiel 36:28–30 God says, “Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. . . . I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine.” Deuteronomy 30:1–5 contains similar promises related to Israel under the New Covenant. After the resurrection of Christ, Gentiles were brought into the blessing of the New Covenant, too (Acts 10; Ephesians 2:13–14). The fulfillment of the New Covenant will be seen in two places: on earth, during the Millennial Kingdom; and in heaven, for all eternity.

We are no longer under the Law but under grace (Romans 6:14–15). The Old Covenant has served its purpose, and it has been replaced by “a better covenant” (Hebrews 7:22). “In fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises” (Hebrews 8:6).

Under the New Covenant, we are given the opportunity to receive salvation as a free gift (Ephesians 2:8–9). Our responsibility is to exercise faith in Christ, the One who fulfilled the Law on our behalf and brought an end to the Law’s sacrifices through His own sacrificial death. Through the life-giving Holy Spirit who lives in all believers (Romans 8:9–11), we share in the inheritance of Christ and enjoy a permanent, unbroken relationship with God (Hebrews 9:15).
https://www.gotquestions.org/new-covenant.html

HatGuy · Aug 24, 2018

EmSw said:
He saw their faith which included doing something. They didn't just sit at home doing nothing, waiting for Jesus' forgiveness

Ah. So he didn't need to obey Jesus' commandments to get forgiven. Jesus responded simply to faith.

Well it appears salvation is by faith after all!

EmSw · Aug 24, 2018

redleghunter said:
In both the OT and NT the remission of sins is in blood. As Jesus indicated:

Luke 20: NASB
14When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him. 15And He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” 17And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, “Take this and share it among yourselves; 18for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.” 19And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 20And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

According to this passage, the blood is wine, and the flesh is bread. Is remission in the wine?

According to Jesus, remission is in repentance. Repentance does not involve any kind of physical blood. I'm wondering if you believe these passages -

2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Psalm 86:5
For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.

Neither verse mentions anything about blood. Don't worry if you don't believe them; you are in company with a lot of people.

redleghunter said:
Hebrews 9:22 once again. And in Hebrews 9:9-10 we see why. Let's look at the entire chapter for context. The author is comparing the Old Covenant sacrifices with the Sacrifice of Christ:

Hebrews 9: NASB
1Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary. 2For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place. 3Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies, 4having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail.

6Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship, 7but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. 8The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing, 9which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, 10since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.

11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. 19For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20saying, “THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.” 21And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. 22And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

First of all, you don't know who the writer is. Second of all, the writer obviously did not follow Jesus on this earth. Jesus forgave many people without any shedding of blood. The writer did not hear Jesus say this either -

Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus rather have mercy and not a sacrifice. Let that sink in for a minute. He came to call sinners to repentance (from which is forgiveness); He didn't come to be a sacrifice.

EmSw · Aug 24, 2018

redleghunter said:
See above but the below explains why.

1 John 2: NASB
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Propitiation:
hilasmos: propitiation
Original Word: ἱλασμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hilasmos
Phonetic Spelling: (hil-as-mos')
Short Definition: a propitiation, atoning sacrifice
Definition: a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice.

2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós ("propitiation").

Vine's Expository Dictionary of the New Testament:
Propitiation
[ A-1,Verb,G2433, hilaskomai ]
was used amongst the Greeks with the significance to make the gods propitious, to appease, propitiate," inasmuch as their good will was not conceived as their natural attitude, but something to be earned first. This use of the word is foreign to the Greek Bible, with respect to God, whether in the Sept. or in the NT. It is never used of any act whereby man brings God into a favorable attude or gracious disposition. It is God who is "propitiated" by the vindication of His holy and righteous character, whereby, through the provision He has made in the vicarious and expiatory sacrifice of Christ, He has so dealt with sin that He can show mercy to the believing sinner in the removal of his guilt and the remission of his sins.

Thus in Luke 18:13 it signifies "to be propitious" or "merciful to" (with the person as the object of the verb), and in Hebrews 2:17 "to expiate, to make propitiation for" (the object of the verb being sins); here the RV, "to make propitiation" is an important correction of the AV, "to make reconciliation." Through the "propitiation" sacrifice of Christ, he who believes upon Him is by God's own act delivered from justly deserved wrath, and comes under the covenant of grace. Never is God said to be reconciled, a fact itself indicative that the enmity exists on man's part alone, and that it is man who needs to be reconciled to God, and not God to man. God is always the same and, since He is Himself immutable, His relative attitude does change towards those who change. He can act differently towards those who come to Him by faith, and solely on the ground of the "propitiatory" sacrifice of Christ, not because He has changed, but because He ever acts according to His unchanging righteousness.

The expiatory work of the Cross is therefore the means whereby the barrier which sin interposes between God and man is broken down. By the giving up of His sinless life sacrifically, Christ annuls the power of sin to separate between God and the believer.

In the OT the Hebrew verb kaphar is connected with kopher, "a covering" (See MERCY SEAT), and is used in connection with the burnt offering, e.g., Leviticus 1:4; Leviticus 14:20; Leviticus 16:24, the guilt offering e.g., Leviticus 5:16, Leviticus 5:18, the sin offering, e.g., Leviticus 4:20, Leviticus 4:26, Leviticus 4:31, Leviticus 4:35, the sin offering and burnt offering together, e.g., Leviticus 5:10; Leviticus 9:7, the meal offering and peace offering, e.g., Ezekiel 45:15, Ezekiel 45:17, as well as in other respects. It is used of the ram offered at the consecration of the high priest, Exodus 29:33, and of the blood which God gave upon the altar to make "propitiation" for the souls of the people, and that because "the life of the flesh is in the blood," Leviticus 17:11, and "it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life" (RV). Man has forfeited his life on account of sin and God has provided the one and only way whereby eternal life could be bestowed, namely, by the voluntary laying down of His life by His Son, under Divine retribution. Of this the former sacrifices appointed by God were foreshadowings.

[ B-1,Noun,G2435, hilasterion ]
akin to A, is regarded as the neuter of an adjective signifying "propitiatory." In the Sept. it is used adjectivelly in connection with epithema, "a cover," in Exodus 25:17; Exodus 37:6, of the lid of the ark (See MERCY SEAT), but it is used as a noun (without epithema), of locality, in Exodus 25:18-Exodus 25:22; Exodus 31:7; Exodus 35:12; Exodus 37:7-Exodus 37:9; Leviticus 16:2, Leviticus 16:13-Leviticus 16:15; Numbers 7:89, and this is its use in Hebrews 9:5.

Elsewhere in the NT it occurs in Romans 3:25, where it is used of Christ Himself; the RV text and punctuation in this verse are important: "whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, by His blood." The phrase "by His blood" is to be taken in immediate connection with "propitiation." Christ, through His expiatory death, is the Personal means by whom God shows the mercy of His justifying grace to the sinner who believes. His "blood" stands for the voluntary giving up of His life, by the shedding of His blood in expiatory sacrifice, under Divine judgment righteously due to us as sinners, faith being the sole condition on man's part.

Note: "By metonymy, 'blood' is sometimes put for 'death,' inasmuch as, blood being essential to life, Leviticus 17:11, when the blood is shed life is given up, that is, death takes place. The fundamental principle on which God deals with sinners is expressed in the words 'apart from shedding of blood,' i.e., unless a death takes place, 'there is no remission' of sins, Hebrews 9:22.

"But whereas the essential of the type lay in the fact that blood was shed, the essential of the antitype lies in this, that the blood shed was that of Christ. Hence, in connection with Jewish sacrifices, 'the blood' is mentioned without reference to the victim from which it flowed, but in connection with the great antitypical sacrifice of the NT the words 'the blood' never stand alone; the One Who shed the blood is invariably specified, for it is the Person that gives value to the work; the saving efficacy of the Death depends entirely upon the fact that He Who died was the Son of God." * [* From Notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, p. 168.]

[ B-2,Noun,G2434, hilasmos ]
akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10, signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as "the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." The italicized addition in the AV, "the sins of," gives a wrong interpretation. What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by Divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God's mercy; the efficacy of the "propitiation," however, is made actual for those who believe. In 1 John 4:10, the fact that God "sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins," is shown to be the great expression of God's love toward man, and the reason why Christians should love one another. In the Sept., Leviticus 25:9; Numbers 5:8; 1 Chronicles 28:20; Psalms 130:4; Ezekiel 44:27; Amos 8:14.
https://studybible.info/vines/Propitiation

Mercy Seat

[ 1,,G2435, hilasterion ]
the lid or cover of the ark of the covenant," signifies the Propitiatory, so called on account of the expiation made once a year on the great Day of Atonement, Hebrews 9:5. For the formation See Exodus 25:17-Exodus 25:21. The Heb. word is kapporeth, "the cover," a meaning connected with the covering or removal of sin (Psalms 32:1) by means of expiatory sacrifice. This mercy seat, together with the ark, is spoken of as the footstool of God, 1 Chronicles 28:2; cp. Psalms 99:5; Psalms 132:7. The Lord promised to be present upon it and to commune with Moses "from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim," Exodus 25:22 (See CHERUBIM). In the Sept. the word epithema, which itself means "a cover," is added to hilasterion; epithema was simply a translation of kapporeth; accordingly, hilasterion, not having this meaning, and being essentially connected with propitiation, was added. Eventually hilasterion stood for both. In 1 Chronicles 28:11 the Holy of Holies is called "the House of the Kapporeth" (See RV, marg.). Through His voluntary expiatory sacrifice in the shedding of His blood, under Divine judgment upon sin, and through His resurrection, Christ has become the Mercy Seat for His people. See Romans 3:25, and See PROPITIATION, B, No. 1.

Romans 3: NASB
21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
1 John 1: NASB

5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

And if your question is "how were the OT saints justified when the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ occurred later in history?", then please read Hebrews 11 which I highlight the pertinent verses here:

13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them. (Hebrews 11:13-16)

39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect. (Hebrews 11:39-40)

It was their faith in God that He would accomplish His promises. They were justified by faith for a future promise of the fulfillment in Christ Jesus. Amen.

Now let's see what Jesus said cleanses us, shall we?

John 15:3
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Jesus did not say it was His blood which cleanses us, but rather, His word. Use this as a your foundation for belief. Anyone knows physical blood cannot cleanse anything. Try taking a bath in physical blood if you think so.

So anywhere you see 'blood for cleansing or for remission', substitute His Word and His Truth, and you will have the spiritual meaning of 'blood'. No need to use any worldly or physical things to interpret 'blood'.

The new covenant was in His Truth He gave us.

redleghunter · Aug 24, 2018

EmSw said:
According to this passage, the blood is wine, and the flesh is bread. Is remission in the wine?

Jesus established the Lord's Supper for all disciples to remember His death and resurrection. The disciples sitting there that night did not yet understand it, but Jesus was demonstrating what would happen to Him the next day when His flesh was broken open and His blood shed on the cross.

EmSw said:
According to Jesus, remission is in repentance. Repentance does not involve any kind of physical blood.

According to Jesus as I pointed out in Luke 20, He said the New Covenant is in His blood.

We are nothing without His death and shedding of blood....We have nothing without His Resurrection.

EmSw · Aug 24, 2018

redleghunter said:
Yes it was an Old Covenant type or shadow of things to come in Christ Jesus. A lot of this is explained in the Holy Scriptures you reject.

It's called the New Covenant.

Question: "What is the New Covenant?"

Answer: The New Covenant (or New Testament) is the promise that God makes with humanity that He will forgive sin and restore fellowship with those whose hearts are turned toward Him. Jesus Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant, and His death on the cross is the basis of the promise (Luke 22:20). The New Covenant was predicted while the Old Covenant was still in effect—the prophets Moses, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel all allude to the New Covenant.

The Old Covenant that God had established with His people required strict obedience to the Mosaic Law. Because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), the Law required that Israel perform daily sacrifices in order to atone for sin. But Moses, through whom God established the Old Covenant, also anticipated the New Covenant. In one of his final addresses to the nation of Israel, Moses looks forward to a time when Israel would be given “a heart to understand” (Deuteronomy 29:4, ESV). Moses predicts that Israel would fail in keeping the Old Covenant (verses 22–28), but he then sees a time of restoration (30:1–5). At that time, Moses says, “The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live” (verse 6). The New Covenant involves a total change of heart so that God’s people are naturally pleasing to Him.

The prophet Jeremiah also predicted the New Covenant. “‘The day will come,’ says the Lord, ‘when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. . . . But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day,’ says the Lord. ‘I will put my law in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people’” (Jeremiah 31:31, 33). Jesus Christ came to fulfill the Law of Moses (Matthew 5:17) and to establish the New Covenant between God and His people. The Old Covenant was written in stone, but the New Covenant is written on our hearts. Entering the New Covenant is made possible only by faith in Christ, who shed His blood to take away the sins of the world (John 1:29). Luke 22:20 relates how Jesus, at the Last Supper, takes the cup and says, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood” (ESV).

The New Covenant is also mentioned in Ezekiel 36:26–27, “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.” Ezekiel lists several aspects of the New Covenant here: a new heart, a new spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit, and true holiness. The Mosaic Law could provide none of these things (see Romans 3:20).

The New Covenant was originally given to Israel and includes a promise of fruitfulness, blessing, and a peaceful existence in the Promised Land. In Ezekiel 36:28–30 God says, “Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. . . . I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine.” Deuteronomy 30:1–5 contains similar promises related to Israel under the New Covenant. After the resurrection of Christ, Gentiles were brought into the blessing of the New Covenant, too (Acts 10; Ephesians 2:13–14). The fulfillment of the New Covenant will be seen in two places: on earth, during the Millennial Kingdom; and in heaven, for all eternity.

We are no longer under the Law but under grace (Romans 6:14–15). The Old Covenant has served its purpose, and it has been replaced by “a better covenant” (Hebrews 7:22). “In fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises” (Hebrews 8:6).

Under the New Covenant, we are given the opportunity to receive salvation as a free gift (Ephesians 2:8–9). Our responsibility is to exercise faith in Christ, the One who fulfilled the Law on our behalf and brought an end to the Law’s sacrifices through His own sacrificial death. Through the life-giving Holy Spirit who lives in all believers (Romans 8:9–11), we share in the inheritance of Christ and enjoy a permanent, unbroken relationship with God (Hebrews 9:15).
https://www.gotquestions.org/new-covenant.html

I'm going to make this simple for you. We read this in Jeremiah 31 -

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This new covenant is not according to the covenant God made Israel when He took them out of Egypt. Here's the difference - in the new covenant, God puts His law in our inward parts, that is, He writes it in our hearts. It is not longer physically written on tablets of stone.

It is now a spiritual covenant, being written in our hearts. Things are to be understood spiritually now, and not physically like the Pharisees. The blood was a physical thing with the Pharisees; it is to be a spiritual thing for those who have His law written in their hearts.

More later, I need to get back to work.

redleghunter · Aug 24, 2018

EmSw said:
2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Indeed. Yet the very covenant God speaks of here involved a Day of Atonement and the daily sacrifice. It was only when one had a repentant heart and humbled themselves that sacrifices would be acceptable:

Psalm 51: NASB
14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation;
Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.

15O Lord, open my lips,
That my mouth may declare Your praise.

16For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.

17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

18By Your favor do good to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.

19Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices,
In burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar.

Notice bolded areas...One must have a repentant contrite heart before God will accept or delight in the offerings. One cannot have a hardened heart and expect there sins to remitted according to the covenant. Back then in OT it was the blood of rams and bulls, in the New Covenant it is the Blood of Jesus Christ which is for the remission of sins. As it says in Hebrews 9 a one time sacrifice for sins for all who call upon the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

EmSw said:
Psalm 86:5
For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.

Neither verse mentions anything about blood. Don't worry if you don't believe them; you are in company with a lot of people.

It's a beautiful psalm. However, does not negate the Mosaic covenant the psalmist was required to follow.

redleghunter · Aug 24, 2018

EmSw said:
First of all, you don't know who the writer is.

An apostle as the early church was convinced. Either Paul or Apollos.

EmSw said:
Second of all, the writer obviously did not follow Jesus on this earth.

You do not know this, but I am beginning to wonder what your 'canon' looks like. Perhaps you could tell me which books of the canon of Holy Scriptures you hold to and which you don't and if there are any others you add to it.

EmSw said:
Jesus forgave many people without any shedding of blood.

Of course He did until reaching the cross. He was the Perfect sacrifice and truly God and as such forgave before going to the cross.

EmSw said:
The writer did not hear Jesus say this either -

How do you know this?

EmSw said:
Jesus rather have mercy and not a sacrifice. Let that sink in for a minute. He came to call sinners to repentance (from which is forgiveness); He didn't come to be a sacrifice.

Is this in your canon? If so, Who is this?

Isaiah 53: NASB
1Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.

3He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

4Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.

8By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

9His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

10But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.

12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

redleghunter · Aug 24, 2018

EmSw said:
John 15:3
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Which word spoken? This one?

John 3: NASB
12“If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

Or this?

Mark 8: NASB
27Jesus went out, along with His disciples, to the villages of Caesarea Philippi; and on the way He questioned His disciples, saying to them, “Who do people say that I am?” 28They told Him, saying, “John the Baptist; and others say Elijah; but others, one of the prophets.” 29And He continued by questioning them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered and said to Him, “You are the Christ.” 30And He warned them to tell no one about Him.

31And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32And He was stating the matter plainly.

Or this?

John 12: NASB
27“Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. 28“Father, glorify Your name.” Then a voice came out of heaven: “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.” 29So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, “An angel has spoken to Him.” 30Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31“Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” 33But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. 34The crowd then answered Him, “We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?” 35So Jesus said to them, “For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36“While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.”
These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. 37But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?” 39For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40“HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.” 41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.

Note the reference to the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 quoted by the Beloved Apostle.

Jesus states His purpose in vers 27. To be lifted up verse 32 and confirmed this is the crucifixion verse 33.

EmSw said:
Jesus did not say it was His blood which cleanses us, but rather, His word. Use this as a your foundation for belief. Anyone knows physical blood cannot cleanse anything. Try taking a bath in physical blood if you think so.

Why are you pitting two truths against each other. The apostle were clean by His word. Meaning He declared them clean and Judas unclean. It is also truth the New Covenant is in the blood of Christ. He said so.

EmSw said:
So anywhere you see 'blood for cleansing or for remission', substitute His Word and His Truth, and you will have the spiritual meaning of 'blood'. No need to use any worldly or physical things to interpret 'blood'.

Why would I do that? That would be eisegesis, aka reading something into the text that is not there.

In your theology Christ would not have to die a horrible death and could have just been translated into a glorified body and ascend into Heaven.

redleghunter · Aug 24, 2018

EmSw said:
The new covenant was in His Truth He gave us.

He actually said it was in His shed blood. Even Peter knew this:

1 Peter 1: NASB
17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 18knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Are you going to tell me not only Paul, but John and now Peter were wrong? You are running out of Apostles who actually wrote things down.

redleghunter · Aug 24, 2018

EmSw said:
This new covenant is not according to the covenant God made Israel when He took them out of Egypt. Here's the difference - in the new covenant, God puts His law in our inward parts, that is, He writes it in our hearts. It is not longer physically written on tablets of stone.

This can be seen in John chapter 3 and also confirmed in the OT in Ezekiel 36. Yes this is the New Covenant. Yet we have Isaiah 53 literally say the Christ would suffer for our sins. God deals in both the physical and spiritual in all His covenants. Jesus literally died for our sins so we can be Kingdom citizens and rose from the dead to seal us in His Promise and confirm His Word was indeed Truth.

EmSw said:
It is now a spiritual covenant, being written in our hearts. Things are to be understood spiritually now, and not physically like the Pharisees. The blood was a physical thing with the Pharisees; it is to be a spiritual thing for those who have His law written in their hearts.

This is a bit too Gnostic for me.

St_Worm2 · Aug 24, 2018

EmSw said:
Remission is mentioned throughout the Old and New Testaments, some with blood and most without. Why would Jesus have to 'die' for sins which have been dismissed and released?

That is an excellent question! The answer to it, at least in great part, is found in verses that you see at the bottom of this post (which point to the fact that there is only one way that our sins can be atoned for).

Of course, that question of yours begs another couple of questions that I've asked you several times in the past, but have so far gone unanswered by you.

1. Why the Incarnation?
2. Why the Cross?

Galatians 2
21 If righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.

--David

Hebrews 9
22 All things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Hebrews 10
4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Romans 3
25 God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in His blood. He did this to demonstrate His justice, because in His forbearance He had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished
26 —he did it to demonstrate His justice at the present time to be both just and the One who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

.

EmSw · Aug 24, 2018

HatGuy said:
Ah. So he didn't need to obey Jesus' commandments to get forgiven. Jesus responded simply to faith.

Well it appears salvation is by faith after all!

Being forgiven isn't in the 10 commandments. Sorry. However, keeping His commandments does assure entering life. Jesus' command to repent is here -

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

It's amazing how many who say they are Christians, and have little regard for the words of Life of Jesus.

EmSw · Aug 24, 2018

redleghunter said:
Jesus established the Lord's Supper for all disciples to remember His death and resurrection. The disciples sitting there that night did not yet understand it, but Jesus was demonstrating what would happen to Him the next day when His flesh was broken open and His blood shed on the cross.

Jesus said nothing about remembering His death and resurrection. You are good at adding to the words of Jesus.

redleghunter said:
According to Jesus as I pointed out in Luke 20, He said the New Covenant is in His blood.

We are nothing without His death and shedding of blood....We have nothing without His Resurrection.

Show me how the new covenant was in His physical blood? Can you do that?

The new covenant was in His Word, His Truth. It is the Truth Jesus taught which is written in our inward parts, and written in our hearts. You can't put physical blood in our inward parts, nor can you write His physical blood in our hearts.

St_Worm2 · Aug 24, 2018

EmSw said:
Being forgiven isn't in the 10 commandments. Sorry. However, keeping His commandments does assure entering life. Jesus' command to repent is here

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

It's amazing how many who say they are Christians, and have little regard for the words of Life of Jesus.

Hi EmSw, the fact that repentance is called for means that we are ~NOT~ keeping His commandments, and if forgiveness for our sins is not based upon the atonement that we find in His blood, how then are we forgiven for our failure to obey Him?

Also, why is repentance and remission of sins to be preached specifically, "in His name"? Why is that important/why is that commanded? If Jesus' death has nothing to do with our salvation, what difference could it possibly make?

--David

St_Worm2 · Aug 24, 2018

EmSw said:
Show me how the new covenant was in His physical blood? Can you do that?

The new covenant was in His Word, His Truth. It is the Truth Jesus taught which is written in our inward parts, and written in our hearts. You can't put physical blood in our inward parts, nor can you write His physical blood in our hearts.

What do you believe the "New Covenant" is, and in what ways do you believe that it differs from the Old Covenant?

Thanks!

--David

EmSw · Aug 24, 2018

redleghunter said:
Indeed. Yet the very covenant God speaks of here involved a Day of Atonement and the daily sacrifice. It was only when one had a repentant heart and humbled themselves that sacrifices would be acceptable:

Perhaps you should write your own Bible. You add so many things which aren't there.

2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

God does not speak of a covenant in this verse. He doesn't mention any day of atonement, nor any daily sacrifice. It does not say when Israel had a penitent heart and humble themselves that sacrifices would be accepted. Do you enjoy adding your own words to the Bible?

What is does say is if His people humble themselves, pray, seek His face, and turn from their wicked ways, then He will forgive their sin. Doesn't your Bible say that also? Nothing about any blood sacrifice, nor any death of a bull, goat, or lamb. Why in the world would you add that?

redleghunter said:
Psalm 51: NASB
14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation;
Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.

15O Lord, open my lips,
That my mouth may declare Your praise.

16For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.

17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

18By Your favor do good to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.

19Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices,
In burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar.

Notice bolded areas...One must have a repentant contrite heart before God will accept or delight in the offerings. One cannot have a hardened heart and expect there sins to remitted according to the covenant. Back then in OT it was the blood of rams and bulls, in the New Covenant it is the Blood of Jesus Christ which is for the remission of sins. As it says in Hebrews 9 a one time sacrifice for sins for all who call upon the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It's a beautiful psalm. However, does not negate the Mosaic covenant the psalmist was required to follow.

One thing you omit is that Jesus was not sacrificed upon any altar. How you can say a cross is an altar is besides me. God never called for a human sacrifice in the old covenant. To say Jesus was a sacrifice according to the old covenant is a stretch of the imagination. Don't you think any sacrifice offered had to be according to God's laws?

St_Worm2 · Aug 24, 2018

EmSw said:
Jesus said nothing about remembering His death and resurrection.

We regularly celebrate the Lord's Supper by taking of bread/His body and of wine/His blood in remembrance of Him. In remembrance of what, exactly? Why did Jesus choose to have us remember Him in this particular way?

Since so many of the answers to your questions in this thread can be found in the answer to these two questions, I will ask them again. If our salvation is self-obtained by what 'we' do, personal obedience/keeping the commandments, and not by faith in Christ and in what 'He' did for us instead (the atonement that is found only in His blood) then,

1. Why the Incarnation?
2. Why the Cross?

Galatians 2
21 If righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.

--David

redleghunter · Aug 24, 2018

EmSw said:
Show me how the new covenant was in His physical blood? Can you do that?

Yes, Christ the Suffering Servant shed His Blood on Calvary. It’s in all 4 Gospel accounts and was preached by the apostles. You’ve seen their words as I posted them several times.

redleghunter · Aug 24, 2018

EmSw said:
Perhaps you should write your own Bible. You add so many things which aren't there

Frankly you omit most of the Bible. Still looking for your EmSw approved infallible canon. Can you reveal your canon of Inspired Holy Scriptures? If not discourse is impossible.

Can the law or religion save you?

Thank You Jesus!

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Simul Justus et Peccator

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