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Can the law or religion save you?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by mathinspiration, Jun 28, 2018.

  1. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Yes it was an Old Covenant type or shadow of things to come in Christ Jesus. A lot of this is explained in the Holy Scriptures you reject.

    It's called the New Covenant.

    Question: "What is the New Covenant?"

    Answer:
    The New Covenant (or New Testament) is the promise that God makes with humanity that He will forgive sin and restore fellowship with those whose hearts are turned toward Him. Jesus Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant, and His death on the cross is the basis of the promise (Luke 22:20). The New Covenant was predicted while the Old Covenant was still in effect—the prophets Moses, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel all allude to the New Covenant.

    The Old Covenant that God had established with His people required strict obedience to the Mosaic Law. Because the wages of sin is death (
    Romans 6:23), the Law required that Israel perform daily sacrifices in order to atone for sin. But Moses, through whom God established the Old Covenant, also anticipated the New Covenant. In one of his final addresses to the nation of Israel, Moses looks forward to a time when Israel would be given “a heart to understand” (Deuteronomy 29:4, ESV). Moses predicts that Israel would fail in keeping the Old Covenant (verses 22–28), but he then sees a time of restoration (30:1–5). At that time, Moses says, “The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live” (verse 6). The New Covenant involves a total change of heart so that God’s people are naturally pleasing to Him.

    The prophet Jeremiah also predicted the New Covenant. “‘The day will come,’ says the Lord, ‘when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. . . . But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day,’ says the Lord. ‘I will put my law in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people’” (
    Jeremiah 31:31, 33). Jesus Christ came to fulfill the Law of Moses (Matthew 5:17) and to establish the New Covenant between God and His people. The Old Covenant was written in stone, but the New Covenant is written on our hearts. Entering the New Covenant is made possible only by faith in Christ, who shed His blood to take away the sins of the world (John 1:29). Luke 22:20 relates how Jesus, at the Last Supper, takes the cup and says, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood” (ESV).

    The New Covenant is also mentioned in
    Ezekiel 36:26–27, “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.” Ezekiel lists several aspects of the New Covenant here: a new heart, a new spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit, and true holiness. The Mosaic Law could provide none of these things (see Romans 3:20).

    The New Covenant was originally given to Israel and includes a promise of fruitfulness, blessing, and a peaceful existence in the
    Promised Land. In Ezekiel 36:28–30 God says, “Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. . . . I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine.” Deuteronomy 30:1–5 contains similar promises related to Israel under the New Covenant. After the resurrection of Christ, Gentiles were brought into the blessing of the New Covenant, too (Acts 10; Ephesians 2:13–14). The fulfillment of the New Covenant will be seen in two places: on earth, during the Millennial Kingdom; and in heaven, for all eternity.

    We are no longer under the Law but under grace (
    Romans 6:14–15). The Old Covenant has served its purpose, and it has been replaced by “a better covenant” (Hebrews 7:22). “In fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises” (Hebrews 8:6).

    Under the New Covenant, we are given the opportunity to receive salvation as a free gift (
    Ephesians 2:8–9). Our responsibility is to exercise faith in Christ, the One who fulfilled the Law on our behalf and brought an end to the Law’s sacrifices through His own sacrificial death. Through the life-giving Holy Spirit who lives in all believers (Romans 8:9–11), we share in the inheritance of Christ and enjoy a permanent, unbroken relationship with God (Hebrews 9:15).
    https://www.gotquestions.org/new-covenant.html
     
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  2. HatGuy

    HatGuy Some guy in a hat

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    Ah. So he didn't need to obey Jesus' commandments to get forgiven. Jesus responded simply to faith.

    Well it appears salvation is by faith after all!
     
  3. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    According to this passage, the blood is wine, and the flesh is bread. Is remission in the wine?

    According to Jesus, remission is in repentance. Repentance does not involve any kind of physical blood. I'm wondering if you believe these passages -

    2 Chronicles 7:14
    If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

    Psalm 86:5
    For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.

    Neither verse mentions anything about blood. Don't worry if you don't believe them; you are in company with a lot of people.

    First of all, you don't know who the writer is. Second of all, the writer obviously did not follow Jesus on this earth. Jesus forgave many people without any shedding of blood. The writer did not hear Jesus say this either -

    Matthew 9:13
    But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Jesus rather have mercy and not a sacrifice. Let that sink in for a minute. He came to call sinners to repentance (from which is forgiveness); He didn't come to be a sacrifice.
     
  4. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Now let's see what Jesus said cleanses us, shall we?

    John 15:3
    Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

    Jesus did not say it was His blood which cleanses us, but rather, His word. Use this as a your foundation for belief. Anyone knows physical blood cannot cleanse anything. Try taking a bath in physical blood if you think so.

    So anywhere you see 'blood for cleansing or for remission', substitute His Word and His Truth, and you will have the spiritual meaning of 'blood'. No need to use any worldly or physical things to interpret 'blood'.

    The new covenant was in His Truth He gave us.
     
  5. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Jesus established the Lord's Supper for all disciples to remember His death and resurrection. The disciples sitting there that night did not yet understand it, but Jesus was demonstrating what would happen to Him the next day when His flesh was broken open and His blood shed on the cross.

    According to Jesus as I pointed out in Luke 20, He said the New Covenant is in His blood.

    We are nothing without His death and shedding of blood....We have nothing without His Resurrection.
     
  6. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    I'm going to make this simple for you. We read this in Jeremiah 31 -

    31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    This new covenant is not according to the covenant God made Israel when He took them out of Egypt. Here's the difference - in the new covenant, God puts His law in our inward parts, that is, He writes it in our hearts. It is not longer physically written on tablets of stone.

    It is now a spiritual covenant, being written in our hearts. Things are to be understood spiritually now, and not physically like the Pharisees. The blood was a physical thing with the Pharisees; it is to be a spiritual thing for those who have His law written in their hearts.

    More later, I need to get back to work.
     
  7. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Indeed. Yet the very covenant God speaks of here involved a Day of Atonement and the daily sacrifice. It was only when one had a repentant heart and humbled themselves that sacrifices would be acceptable:

    Psalm 51: NASB
    14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation;
    Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.

    15O Lord, open my lips,
    That my mouth may declare Your praise.


    16For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
    You are not pleased with burnt offering.


    17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
    A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.


    18By Your favor do good to Zion;
    Build the walls of Jerusalem.


    19Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices,
    In burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
    Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar.


    Notice bolded areas...One must have a repentant contrite heart before God will accept or delight in the offerings. One cannot have a hardened heart and expect there sins to remitted according to the covenant. Back then in OT it was the blood of rams and bulls, in the New Covenant it is the Blood of Jesus Christ which is for the remission of sins. As it says in Hebrews 9 a one time sacrifice for sins for all who call upon the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.


    It's a beautiful psalm. However, does not negate the Mosaic covenant the psalmist was required to follow.
     
  8. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    An apostle as the early church was convinced. Either Paul or Apollos.

    You do not know this, but I am beginning to wonder what your 'canon' looks like. Perhaps you could tell me which books of the canon of Holy Scriptures you hold to and which you don't and if there are any others you add to it.

    Of course He did until reaching the cross. He was the Perfect sacrifice and truly God and as such forgave before going to the cross.

    How do you know this?

    Is this in your canon? If so, Who is this?

    Isaiah 53: NASB
    1Who has believed our message?
    And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?


    2For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
    And like a root out of parched ground;
    He has no
    stately form or majesty
    That we should look upon Him,
    Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.


    3He was despised and forsaken of men,
    A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
    And like one from whom men hide their face
    He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.


    4Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
    And our sorrows He carried;
    Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
    Smitten of God, and afflicted.


    5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
    He was crushed for our iniquities;
    The chastening for our well-being
    fell upon Him,
    And by His scourging we are healed.


    6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
    Each of us has turned to his own way;
    But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
    To fall on Him.


    7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
    Yet He did not open His mouth;
    Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
    And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
    So He did not open His mouth.


    8By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
    And as for His generation, who considered
    That He was cut off out of the land of the living
    For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke
    was due?

    9His grave was assigned with wicked men,
    Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
    Because He had done no violence,
    Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.


    10But the LORD was pleased
    To crush Him, putting
    Him to grief;
    If He would render Himself
    as a guilt offering,
    He will see
    His offspring,
    He will prolong
    His days,
    And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.


    11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
    He will see
    it and be satisfied;
    By His knowledge the Righteous One,
    My Servant, will justify the many,
    As He will bear their iniquities.


    12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
    And He will divide the booty with the strong;
    Because He poured out Himself to death,
    And was numbered with the transgressors;
    Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
    And interceded for the transgressors.
     
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  9. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Which word spoken? This one?

    John 3: NASB
    12“If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

    Or this?

    Mark 8: NASB
    27Jesus went out, along with His disciples, to the villages of Caesarea Philippi; and on the way He questioned His disciples, saying to them, “Who do people say that I am?” 28They told Him, saying, “John the Baptist; and others say Elijah; but others, one of the prophets.” 29And He continued by questioning them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered and said to Him, “You are the Christ.” 30And He warned them to tell no one about Him.

    31And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32And He was stating the matter plainly.

    Or this?

    John 12: NASB
    27“Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. 28“Father, glorify Your name.” Then a voice came out of heaven: “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.” 29So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, “An angel has spoken to Him.” 30Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31“Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” 33But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. 34The crowd then answered Him, “We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?” 35So Jesus said to them, “For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36“While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.”
    These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them.
    37But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?” 39For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40“HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.” 41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.

    Note the reference to the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 quoted by the Beloved Apostle.

    Jesus states His purpose in vers 27. To be lifted up verse 32 and confirmed this is the crucifixion verse 33.


    Why are you pitting two truths against each other. The apostle were clean by His word. Meaning He declared them clean and Judas unclean. It is also truth the New Covenant is in the blood of Christ. He said so.

    Why would I do that? That would be eisegesis, aka reading something into the text that is not there.

    In your theology Christ would not have to die a horrible death and could have just been translated into a glorified body and ascend into Heaven.
     
  10. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    He actually said it was in His shed blood. Even Peter knew this:

    1 Peter 1: NASB
    17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 18knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

    Are you going to tell me not only Paul, but John and now Peter were wrong? You are running out of Apostles who actually wrote things down.
     
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    This can be seen in John chapter 3 and also confirmed in the OT in Ezekiel 36. Yes this is the New Covenant. Yet we have Isaiah 53 literally say the Christ would suffer for our sins. God deals in both the physical and spiritual in all His covenants. Jesus literally died for our sins so we can be Kingdom citizens and rose from the dead to seal us in His Promise and confirm His Word was indeed Truth.

    This is a bit too Gnostic for me.
     
  12. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

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    That is an excellent question! The answer to it, at least in great part, is found in verses that you see at the bottom of this post (which point to the fact that there is only one way that our sins can be atoned for).

    Of course, that question of yours begs another couple of questions that I've asked you several times in the past, but have so far gone unanswered by you.

    1. Why the Incarnation?
    2. Why the Cross?

    Galatians 2
    21 If righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
    --David

    Hebrews 9
    22 All things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

    Hebrews 10
    4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

    Romans 3
    25 God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in His blood. He did this to demonstrate His justice, because in His forbearance He had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished
    26 —he did it to demonstrate His justice at the present time to be both just and the One who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
    .
     
  13. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Being forgiven isn't in the 10 commandments. Sorry. However, keeping His commandments does assure entering life. Jesus' command to repent is here -

    Matthew 4:17
    From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Luke 24:47
    And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

    It's amazing how many who say they are Christians, and have little regard for the words of Life of Jesus.
     
  14. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Jesus said nothing about remembering His death and resurrection. You are good at adding to the words of Jesus.

    Show me how the new covenant was in His physical blood? Can you do that?

    The new covenant was in His Word, His Truth. It is the Truth Jesus taught which is written in our inward parts, and written in our hearts. You can't put physical blood in our inward parts, nor can you write His physical blood in our hearts.
     
  15. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

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    Hi EmSw, the fact that repentance is called for means that we are ~NOT~ keeping His commandments, and if forgiveness for our sins is not based upon the atonement that we find in His blood, how then are we forgiven for our failure to obey Him?

    Also, why is repentance and remission of sins to be preached specifically, "in His name"? Why is that important/why is that commanded? If Jesus' death has nothing to do with our salvation, what difference could it possibly make?

    --David
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2018
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  16. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

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    What do you believe the "New Covenant" is, and in what ways do you believe that it differs from the Old Covenant?

    Thanks!

    --David
     
  17. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Perhaps you should write your own Bible. You add so many things which aren't there.

    2 Chronicles 7:14
    If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

    God does not speak of a covenant in this verse. He doesn't mention any day of atonement, nor any daily sacrifice. It does not say when Israel had a penitent heart and humble themselves that sacrifices would be accepted. Do you enjoy adding your own words to the Bible?

    What is does say is if His people humble themselves, pray, seek His face, and turn from their wicked ways, then He will forgive their sin. Doesn't your Bible say that also? Nothing about any blood sacrifice, nor any death of a bull, goat, or lamb. Why in the world would you add that?

    One thing you omit is that Jesus was not sacrificed upon any altar. How you can say a cross is an altar is besides me. God never called for a human sacrifice in the old covenant. To say Jesus was a sacrifice according to the old covenant is a stretch of the imagination. Don't you think any sacrifice offered had to be according to God's laws?
     
  18. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

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    We regularly celebrate the Lord's Supper by taking of bread/His body and of wine/His blood in remembrance of Him. In remembrance of what, exactly? Why did Jesus choose to have us remember Him in this particular way?

    Since so many of the answers to your questions in this thread can be found in the answer to these two questions, I will ask them again. If our salvation is self-obtained by what 'we' do, personal obedience/keeping the commandments, and not by faith in Christ and in what 'He' did for us instead (the atonement that is found only in His blood) then,

    1. Why the Incarnation?
    2. Why the Cross?​

    Galatians 2
    21 If righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.

    --David
     
  19. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Yes, Christ the Suffering Servant shed His Blood on Calvary. It’s in all 4 Gospel accounts and was preached by the apostles. You’ve seen their words as I posted them several times.
     
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  20. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Frankly you omit most of the Bible. Still looking for your EmSw approved infallible canon. Can you reveal your canon of Inspired Holy Scriptures? If not discourse is impossible.
     
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