Can the Investigative Judgement doctrine be explained without reference EGW?

[JojotheBeloved]

were the Jews mistaken when they believed in the coming of the Messiah? Not at all! But were their ideas about the nature of his ministry correct? Well, even the disciples had difficulties when it came to grasping the true nature of his kingdom, right?

I'd like to suggest that the discussion about the IJ is similar to the Jewish controversy about the Messiah. The Jews rightfully waited for the Messiah, but their ideas about the Messiah were far from infallible. In the same way prophecies were fulfilled in 1844, but we have much to learn (and unlearn) about these things, and about Jesus' ministry as our High Priest.

Good comparison! I like it! It makes sense that something happened in 1844 - it's obvious from history that something happened; a great Christian awakening if nothing else. But I agree that SDA Church may need to be more humble and admit that maybe we don't know all the implications of what may have happened then or what God is doing now. We're right to believe in Jesus and all He has done and promises to do, but maybe we don't know as much as we think we do.

 

[stinsonmarri]

The Adventist church has so far been unable to present the IJ without the use of EGW. It is true that originally the doctrine was presented without the use of EGW as the former Millerites tried to reinterpret their teachings because in 1844 and the subsequent dates set for the second coming did not occur. Even James White rejected the doctrine. But changed his mind about it when it became more accepted in the Adventist church and with EGW's acceptance.

Now in the main it is to the interpretations that EGW presented that Adventists must use to come to an interpretation of the IJ (preferring to find support in the prophet however some will assume their faith in the answers the Adventist Pioneers, thus bypassing EGW). In other words in the chain of things you must believe to arrive at the IJ you have to assume the same interpretations that EGW accepts. Such things as a day for a year or that the 2300 days are begun with the beginning of the 70 weeks. Well there is a whole list of these things you have to accept. For Adventists the main part of which simply accept EGW's authority as prophet so they accept all the parts in the chain. Once you accept all the unique parts of the chain you can say you have arrived at a Biblical interpretation. Of course to do that you have to also take verses such as Dan 8:14 out of context but when you do that and accept all those questionable positions as if they are certain and true. Then you arrive at what so many Adventist will say, which is that they can support the IJ from the Bible only.

This is incorrect! First of all EGW was not the one who had the vision of the IJ, Hiram Edison did. But it is in Revelation and Daniel. YAHSHUA is standing by the Candlesticks in Rev Chapter one. Then a door opens in Rev Chapter Four and YAHWEH and THE MOST HOLY PLACE is described clearly. Next Chapter Five THE FATHER has in HIS RIGHT HAND a Book. This is the Book of Life and THE LAMB can freely come and take the Book of Life! This is the beginning of the IJ. The next Chapter Six is the sealing process of all of the people who will be saved. Uriah Smith book is the one to toss aside! The rider on all of the horses is man. The horses represent the earth there only four!!!! The White horse is when the earth was made perfect and the rider is Adam and Eve. They are sealed and next rider is sinful man Cain but all saved from Abel to Methuselah! Next rider on the black horse is Nimrod because paganism has swept the world again that fast! Those saved from Noah to the birth of the apostles and the followers of YAHSHUA which included the Gentiles. The next rider on the gray horse is the papacy as an empire. The martyrs who gave up their lives for the truth. No more horses but martyrs during the middle ages under the sixth seal and the Inquisition! ELOHIM tells them to rest because under the sixth seal more will stand and die for YAHSHUA! This is the last sealing of YAHWEH'S people which includes the 144,000 and the great multitude they will witness to during the Time of Trouble. The Seven Trumpets is the opposite dealing with the wicked and how the great multitude was saved and then the end of time. The Judgment show that the beast will turn on his mother, the Catholic Church. He was trained to rule the world for the Catholic Church, but Satan was in the mix to possess him all alone! The beast will destroy the papacy known as the harlot and Jerusalem known as Babylon. Then he will try to come after YAHSHUA'S people and the beast/man, USA the false prophet will be put in the Lake of Fire by YAHSHUA when He returns. The rest of the wicked will wait the second return of YAHSHUA and the saints. YAHSHUA brings the executive judgment back with HIM for Satan and all the wicked from Cain, Nimrod, the Pharisees and Sadducees, Hitler, Napoleon, many of the Republicans and some of the Democratic party especial the tea party and more! All who were selfish, greedy, racist, haters, adulterers, liars, and so much more! Oh yeah, no Sunday blue law myth it is not Biblical! They will die too! Now that the end of the story read Revelation and don't try to interpret it but understand it through asking THE HOLY SPIRIT who will lead you into all truth!
Happy Sabbath!

 

[fozzy]

The term investigative judgment is confusing because God is all knowing and has written the names of the saints in the book of life from the foundation of the world. There is no investigation from his perspective but having said that if we go to Daniel chap. 7 there is a judgment scene presented in heaven where books are opened and some type of investigation occurs. This happens at the end of the three and a half year reign of the little horn power. The son of man or Jesus is brought before the ancient of days or the Father and a kingdom is at last given to him.

The term judgment brings to mind a courtroom scene where charges are brought against one party and evidence is presented to determine the guilt or innocence of this party. At the end a verdict is given which determines the fate of those accused. The judgment scene in Daniel 7 seems to be primarily for the saints and at the end of it they are vindicated and the little horn is condemned. This should not be confused with the judgment scene of Revelation 20 which takes place on earth after the millennium and seems to be primarily for the lost who are shown why they are being sent to the lake of fire for rejecting Christ as their savior.

The Adventist understanding of the investigative judgment is actually biblical and not completely out in left field. I wish I could say that about other Adventist doctrines but I cannot. The date 1844 is nowhere to be found in scripture and is built on a mountain of what ifs and outdated prophetic interpretation.

 

[stinsonmarri]

The term investigative judgment is confusing because God is all knowing and has written the names of the saints in the book of life from the foundation of the world. There is no investigation from his perspective but having said that if we go to Daniel chap. 7 there is a judgment scene presented in heaven where books are opened and some type of investigation occurs. This happens at the end of the three and a half year reign of the little horn power. The son of man or Jesus is brought before the ancient of days or the Father and a kingdom is at last given to him.

The term judgment brings to mind a courtroom scene where charges are brought against one party and evidence is presented to determine the guilt or innocence of this party. At the end a verdict is given which determines the fate of those accused. The judgment scene in Daniel 7 seems to be primarily for the saints and at the end of it they are vindicated and the little horn is condemned. This should not be confused with the judgment scene of Revelation 20 which takes place on earth after the millennium and seems to be primarily for the lost who are shown why they are being sent to the lake of fire for rejecting Christ as their savior.

The Adventist understanding of the investigative judgment is actually biblical and not completely out in left field. I wish I could say that about other Adventist doctrines but I cannot. The date 1844 is nowhere to be found in scripture and is built on a mountain of what ifs and outdated prophetic interpretation.

Yes, that is true in Daniel, but Chapter nine, the angels comes to explain the first and second visions to Daniel. Dan 9:24 states 70 weeks which is multiply by 7 gives you 490 years. This is the actual time given to Israel which ended when Stephen was stone. The door of Israel as a nation was closed for good. It also begins the Gospel to the eldest son Japheth. Ham children were first especially Canaan. Gen 15:16 showed that YAHWEH gave them 400 years. In Genesis, that most seem to misunderstand is that YAHWEH said in the 4th generation, which in Hebrew means ages or years. However, just before Stephen was stoned he gave the exact years of 400 as well. The people who claim they are Israel are not from Shem they are from Japheth and that is a fact. They even call themselves Ashkenazi's who was Gomer's Son. Israel of Shem ended. Gen 9:27
Subtracting 490 years from 2300, you have 1810 years. The way you have understand the prophecy is the death of YAHSHUA, specifically the date of HIS death. It had to do with the burnt offering and not the passover supper. YAHSHUA did that in the Garden, HE became our PASSOVER, and HIS human body almost died, but was revived to die on the tree! HE was THE TRUE LAMB to take away sin from all who would accept HIS death as their BURNT OFFERING. HE died in AD 31 so to add that number to 1810 brings you 1844 on the exact day of Atonement in Heaven began judgment for the righteous dead first, then righteous living, then the wicked but the executive judgment for the wicked and the evil angels will be met when YAHSHUA return with HIS saints to give everyone their just reward!
The 3 1/2 have years was for the time the little horn would think to change time (the Holy Convocations which included the Sabbath), and HIS Judgments Laws. If you know anything about mathematic is has to do with symbols especially Algebra, Geometry and Statistics. You have to work out the solutions to get to the answer. The Bibles says YAHWEH adds by multiplying, and subtracts by dividing and prophetic things must be understood and that comes through prayer by receiving THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Finally, the prophecies are not outdated! The problem comes from people who have turn from truth and from THE ONE who leads each one to truth if they desire to listen. As I stated earlier, John and Daniel saw the 1844 message first and it was Daniel who was also given the date and time. The last who will receive the message is the great multitude who is witness by those ordained to be YAHWEH'S Israel or overcomers, the 144,000 John saw the number, but Daniel saw them also. EGW was only given what was already given to both of them in the Bible. She just confirmed that the Word of ELOHIM is steadfast and never changes. However, people change and think they need nothing, but do not realize that they are wretched, naked, poor and blind. If you want to be saved then it is very simple stop putting down EGW visions and read the prophecies from the Bible in prayer and pray that THE HOLY SPIRIT will come and give you eyesalve that you eyes will come open!!!!
Blessings!

 

[fozzy]

Yes, that is true in Daniel, but Chapter nine, the angels comes to explain the first and second visions to Daniel. Dan 9:24 states 70 weeks which is multiply by 7 gives you 490 years. This is the actual time given to Israel which ended when Stephen was stone. The door of Israel as a nation was closed for good. It also begins the Gospel to the eldest son Japheth. Ham children were first especially Canaan. Gen 15:16 showed that YAHWEH gave them 400 years. In Genesis, that most seem to misunderstand is that YAHWEH said in the 4th generation, which in Hebrew means ages or years. However, just before Stephen was stoned he gave the exact years of 400 as well. The people who claim they are Israel are not from Shem they are from Japheth and that is a fact. They even call themselves Ashkenazi's who was Gomer's Son. Israel of Shem ended. Gen 9:27
Subtracting 490 years from 2300, you have 1810 years. The way you have understand the prophecy is the death of YAHSHUA, specifically the date of HIS death. It had to do with the burnt offering and not the passover supper. YAHSHUA did that in the Garden, HE became our PASSOVER, and HIS human body almost died, but was revived to die on the tree! HE was THE TRUE LAMB to take away sin from all who would accept HIS death as their BURNT OFFERING. HE died in AD 31 so to add that number to 1810 brings you 1844 on the exact day of Atonement in Heaven began judgment for the righteous dead first, then righteous living, then the wicked but the executive judgment for the wicked and the evil angels will be met when YAHSHUA return with HIS saints to give everyone their just reward!
The 3 1/2 have years was for the time the little horn would think to change time (the Holy Convocations which included the Sabbath), and HIS Judgments Laws. If you know anything about mathematic is has to do with symbols especially Algebra, Geometry and Statistics. You have to work out the solutions to get to the answer. The Bibles says YAHWEH adds by multiplying, and subtracts by dividing and prophetic things must be understood and that comes through prayer by receiving THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Finally, the prophecies are not outdated! The problem comes from people who have turn from truth and from THE ONE who leads each one to truth if they desire to listen. As I stated earlier, John and Daniel saw the 1844 message first and it was Daniel who was also given the date and time. The last who will receive the message is the great multitude who is witness by those ordained to be YAHWEH'S Israel or overcomers, the 144,000 John saw the number, but Daniel saw them also. EGW was only given what was already given to both of them in the Bible. She just confirmed that the Word of ELOHIM is steadfast and never changes. However, people change and think they need nothing, but do not realize that they are wretched, naked, poor and blind. If you want to be saved then it is very simple stop putting down EGW visions and read the prophecies from the Bible in prayer and pray that THE HOLY SPIRIT will come and give you eyesalve that you eyes will come open!!!!
Blessings!

Ummmmm.......where do I begin with this? How about we go back to Daniel chap. 8 and let's see what we find. In Daniel 8 we have a Ram a Goat and eventually a little horn. The little horn magnifies himself to the prince and host of heaven which would be Jesus and the angels and the place of his sanctuary is cast down. The little horn actually casts down some of the stars and host and stamps upon them which means that he has power over the angels. These verses were not fulfilled in the past with some kind of crazy historical dates and years!!

Before this can be understood we need to have a solid identification of the ram and goat and little horn. In Daniel chap. 10 the angel Gabriel is in a battle with a fallen angel named the prince of Persia and later he fights with another angel called the prince of Grecia. The ram and goat are most likely fallen angels not some ancient kingdoms. So the little horn which comes from the 4th beast is probably a man controlled by demons. The little horn is said to have mighty power but not by his own which means the only way he could do these things is by the power of fallen angels who will come in the last days to deceive the world.

 

[Highway2heaven]

The ram and goat, are they not explained who and what they are in verse 20 onwards?

 

[fozzy]

The ram and goat, are they not explained who and what they are in verse 20 onwards?

The ram is identified as the kings of Media and Persia and the goat is identified as the king of Grecia or Greece. Also the great horn is said to be the first king which is important because it shows the horn is different from the beast and is controlled by it. Now as I already mentioned, Gabriel was in a battle with the prince of Persia and this prince prevented him from coming to Daniel for 21 days so this was no earthly prince. So we have two possibilities for the ram and the goat. They could be the historical kings of those nations or they could be fallen angels. I tend to go with fallen angels because even in Isaiah, Satan himself is referred to as the king of Babylon so his other angels may have names like the prince of Persia and Grecia.

The reason I brought this up is because the 2300 day prophecy is given because of the defilement caused by the little horn so we need to have a working understanding of the ram and goat and lastly the little horn. Many like the Adventists have a piece meal understanding of Daniel where they interpret it one way here and another way there and build a whole doctrine out of the 2300 days without showing how it relates to the rest of the chapter. The little horn is first introduced in chap. 7 and then chap. 8 and then in chap. 11 the final king of the north is the same because he removes the daily and sets up the abomination. Any interpretation has to fit with all these chapters or it is not valid.

 

[Highway2heaven]

. So we have two possibilities for the ram and the goat. They could be the historical kings of those nations or they could be fallen angels. I tend to go with fallen angels because even in Isaiah, Satan himself is referred to as the king of Babylon so his other angels may have names like the prince of Persia and Grecia.

So if Grecia is a name of a fallen angel then why is there a horn on his head that is represented as another King? Daniel 8:21

 

[fozzy]

So if Grecia is a name of a fallen angel then why is there a horn on his head that is represented as another King? Daniel 8:21

The beast would represent the fallen angel and the horn would represent the human leader or king that he controls. Many have the idea that beasts only represent nations or kingdoms but this is not true because Satan (a fallen angel) is symbolized by a goat in OT sanctuary service and Peter refers to him a roaring lion in the NT. Horns are used throughout the bible to symbolize power or strength. The horn is controlled by the head of the beast which is pretty accurate to how fallen angels control evil men.

Lets focus on the goat. Historically the goat and the great horn are seen as Alexander the great so there is no difference between the two. A better understanding would be the goat symbolizes the spiritual prince of Grecia (fallen angel) and the horn represents the earthly prince of Grecia (Alexander). Or we could take it one step further in that the spiritual prince of Grecia will find a new horn to control in the last days. Some of the beasts have multiple heads meaning multiple angels and some have multiple horns meaning multiple earthly rulers.

 

[Highway2heaven]

So Daniel chapter 8,is identical to Daniel chapter 6? Is Daniel chapter 2 connected with all these beasts?

 

[Highway2heaven]

If in Daniel chapter 6 all these beasts come having these horns and heads, then you come to verse 23, talking about the fourth beast, it says "the fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon the earth", so how does this tie into fallen angels having control over a human power on earth? Emphasis on the fourth beast IS the kingdom upon the earth.

 

[fozzy]

So Daniel chapter 8,is identical to Daniel chapter 6? Is Daniel chapter 2 connected with all these beasts?

Daniel chap. 2 is a parallel to chap. 7. Daniel was shown a great image with a head of gold and a breast of silver and then thighs of bronze and lastly legs and feet of iron and clay. He was told in verse 28 that the vision is for the latter days so this is the first clue that these metals are not ancient kingdoms. Daniel identifies Nebuchadnezzar as the head of gold but he does not rule in the latter days so we need to look more deeply into this. Nebuchadnezzar was the king of Babylon and when we study Revelation there will also be a symbolic city of Babylon in the last days so maybe there is a symbolic king of Babylon as well. In Isaiah chap. 14 Satan is referred to as the king of Babylon so the head of gold rightly understood is speaking of Satan not Nebuchadnezzar. So the other metals would be other fallen angels who will come after him and then the 4th dreadful beast will have ten horns or ten world leaders. When the stone that is cut out without hands strikes the image on the feet all the metals are destroyed together implying that all 4 angels will be destroyed at the 2nd coming when Jesus sets up his kingdom. And lastly in verse 43 it says speaking of the iron and clay that they will mingle themselves with the seed of men but shall not cleave together. If we apply this to Rome which was a kingdom of men it makes no sense but if the metals refer to angels we could see how they would not mix together. Clay is often symbolic of man or mankind as well.

 

[fozzy]

If in Daniel chapter 6 all these beasts come having these horns and heads, then you come to verse 23, talking about the fourth beast, it says "the fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon the earth", so how does this tie into fallen angels having control over a human power on earth? Emphasis on the fourth beast IS the kingdom upon the earth.

Chap. 7 picks up from what we learned about the great image. If the head of gold represents Satan then the lion should also point to Satan. And as I mentioned earlier, Peter refers to Satan as a roaring lion in the NT. The lion is said to have eagles wings which are plucked off and is lifted up from the earth and made to stand on his feet like a man and a man's heart is given to it. If we apply these verses to Nebuchadnezzar it makes no sense because he already has a man's heart but if we apply them to Satan it brings out the idea that when he comes as the antichrist it will be in the appearance of a man probably Jesus so he can deceive the world.

Jesus warned us that in the last days false Christs and false prophets would arise and show great signs and wonders and if it were possible they would deceive even the very elect. We tend to think of these things in human terms but the reality is that we have never seen false Christs and false prophets like the ones who are coming because they will ascend out of the bottomless pit.

 

[Highway2heaven]

Although I do think that you have interesting points, but there are a couple of things that the bible says clearly what head is and also the kingdoms are, I think that if we stray from what the bible says we are on thin ice. Not sure of all the orthodox Adventists believe on this subject. But from the sabbath point of view, if I was a Sunday keeper the reasons for believing that Saturday was changed to Sunday by Jesus resurrecting on Sunday, although the bible doesn't say we should worship on Sunday. Although my understanding of the resurrection is very important if I can't take a doctrine and believe it if the bible doesn't say it.

 

[fozzy]

The historical ideas on Daniel have been around forever and for most that is all they will ever see. The things I am sharing are not for the novice bible student. They are for those who have studied these things and are open to where the bible may lead. Even a casual reading of Daniel and Revelation shows that angels are mentioned in almost every chapter. it would be a mistake to think they wont play a large role in the last days.

As to the other things you mentioned, Adventists literally worship the ten commandments and keep an old covenant Sabbath. They have no concept of grace or the new covenant where we are supposed to rest in the perfect and completed work of Christ and the day we go to church on is always secondary to that. Prophecy is a nice thing to study but without a relationship with Jesus and an understanding of the gospel it is just a waste of time.

 

[Highway2heaven]

I think you're absolutely right, if there is not a Christ centered focus individually, how can you see christ scripturally. Well even if the Adventists believe that, because it is an old doctrine doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong, in the manner in which they come across to others maybe wrong, and it may seam that they are law and not grace but you have that in every age in every church, even new doctrine new philosophies people adopt may not be wrong in essence but they may act it out like fanatics. But aside from that we are saying that the bible doesn't support the IJ because there is no scriptural backing, and then we say to those who believe in the IJ that they have to whatch out because that is not what the bible says, and we also say it is not a salvational issue, and yet we leave the church and all that it stands for because of something that is not a salvation issue.
But I have an observation, correct me if I'm wrong. In prophecy there are lines that aren't very apparent to see and others that are, when Daniel is given a dream, this dream could be very symbolic, which rarely happens that it is not, and the dreamer is left to ponder the meaning of these dreams, it could be that the symbols have pertanance to their culture, for example, why would pharaoh see it as a very important matter to interpret his dream, just dreaming of cattle and corn is not really a significant dream to bestow honors on those who interpret it, but apparently these things were very important. Joseph and family where farmers, he had dreams of wheat sheafs bowing down to him, and stars where a part of their culture as well. I mean if God designed these dreams to the dreamer, sure he or she may not understand them but they could be full of meaning, but nonetheless God would design it so that it would have that significance, in other words the dream could be interpreted so they could understand the meaning in the very culture that they were living then. So is it true that when Daniel received these dreams and Nebuchadnezzar received these dreams, that when someone or something came to explain these dreams that when they where told to go interpret that they would give more symbology to the dream rather than make it understandable. I would tend to think that the angle that was sent to daniel to interpret those dreams was not speaking dark sentences shrouded in mysterious symbology, I think if God told the Angel to interpret the dreams so that Daniel would understand means exactly that so when it says that Nebuchadnezzar is the head of gold, it is then no longer the symbology of prophecy but an explanation of prophecy, which means that we no longer have to make the explanation another symbol for some other meaning.

 

[Highway2heaven]

I think you're absolutely right, if there is not a Christ centered focus individually, how can you see christ scripturally. Well even if the Adventists believe that, because it is an old doctrine doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong, in the manner in which they come across to others maybe wrong, and it may seam that they are law and not grace but you have that in every age in every church, even new doctrine new philosophies people adopt may not be wrong in essence but they may act it out like fanatics. But aside from that we are saying that the bible doesn't support the IJ because there is no scriptural backing, and then we say to those who believe in the IJ that they have to whatch out because that is not what the bible says, and we also say it is not a salvational issue, and yet we leave the church and all that it stands for because of something that is not a salvation issue.
But I have an observation, correct me if I'm wrong. In prophecy there are lines that aren't very apparent to see and others that are, when Daniel is given a dream, this dream could be very symbolic, which rarely happens that it is not, and the dreamer is left to ponder the meaning of these dreams, it could be that the symbols have pertanance to their culture, for example, why would pharaoh see it as a very important matter to interpret his dream, just dreaming of cattle and corn is not really a significant dream to bestow honors on those who interpret it, but apparently these things were very important. Joseph and family where farmers, he had dreams of wheat sheafs bowing down to him, and stars where a part of their culture as well. I mean if God designed these dreams to the dreamer, sure he or she may not understand them but they could be full of meaning, but nonetheless God would design it so that it would have that significance, in other words the dream could be interpreted so they could understand the meaning in the very culture that they were living then. So is it true that when Daniel received these dreams and Nebuchadnezzar received these dreams, that when someone or something came to explain these dreams that when they where told to go interpret that they would give more symbology to the dream rather than make it understandable. I would tend to think that the angle that was sent to daniel to interpret those dreams was not speaking dark sentences shrouded in mysterious symbology, I think if God told the Angel to interpret the dreams so that Daniel would understand means exactly that so when it says that Nebuchadnezzar is the head of gold, it is then no longer the symbology of prophecy but an explanation of prophecy, which means that we no longer have to make the explanation another symbol for some other meaning.

 

[Highway2heaven]

Sorry I'm just getting used of all the postings

 

[Highway2heaven]

Double emphasis if you will

 

[fozzy]

Nebuchadnezzar is identified as the head of gold, there is no getting around that. But we also have more information than that. Daniel told the king that God is revealing to him what shall happen in the latter days. Now did Nebuchadnezzar live in the latter or last days? Probably not. Also, when the rock strikes the image on the feet the whole image is destroyed at that time including the head of gold. Will Nebuchadnezzar or Babylon be around when this happens? Again the answer is no.

It's helpful to see the ancient story of Babylon as a model for the last days. Nebuchadnezzar lived in a city called Babylon and set up a great image for all to worship on pain of death. In the last days the antichrist will come and build a symbolic city called Babylon and will set up an image to the beast and command the whole world to worship it on pain of death. Satan is the true antichrist. John said the antichrist was in existence in his day so the only plausible identity is Satan himself.

Jesus identified John Baptist as the Elijah that is to come. Now was John Baptist actually Elijah? No, but he came in the spirit and power of Elijah. The same is true in the negative. Satan is not Nebuchadnezzar but he will do the same things on a global scale in the last days. The historical chapters of Daniel are just as important as the prophetic because they show in type and symbol things that will occur in the last days - i.e. great image, high tree, the golden cup and the death decree. The story of the high tree is really good. Nebuchadnezzar was changed into a beast similar to how Satan will be transformed into a man or the false Christ.