Can the Investigative Judgement doctrine be explained without reference EGW?

[Highway2heaven]

Are you sure latter days means last days?

 

[Highway2heaven]

Well I don't think the verse is saying that Nebuchadnezzar will live in the last days, doesn't it say that God will show him what will happen in the latter days? In other words God gave Nebuchadnezzar this dream to reveal to him what will happen in the future. Like pharaoh had the same sort of dream, and it was pointed out that there will come seven years of plenty and seven years of famine, so the dream that pharoh was given was given to show the future events, it could be possible to read these verses in Daniel this way.

So if in fact Nebuchadnezzar is infact representing this head of Gold, is it also true that belshassar was also representing this head of Gold, since Babylon was represented as Gold. If then Nebuchadnezzar was the head, who then are the chest and arms and the brass and the iron?

Numbers 24:14-17 the use of the phrase "latter days" is refrencing the time when Jesus comes to the earth, and make the ultimate sacrifice. If the "latter days" is in refrence to the last days then Jesus has yet to make this sacrifice for us, and we should still be keeping the law, doing the ceremonial services, and a whole plethora of other complications arise, so in my thinking, although "latter days" can mean last days, if we apply it to the dream, then again we have complications as you have just stated, that if it is so why is it that Nebuchadnezzar is not alive now. So I think latter days, could mean something other than the last days in this context.

 

[fozzy]

Are you sure latter days means last days?

The term latter days and last days are synonymous. In Gen. 49:1 last days is used and it’s the same Hebrew word. Now going back to Balaam’s prophecy in Num. 24 we see that a star shall come out of Jacob and a sceptre shall rise out of Israel and he shall smite the corners of Moab and destroy the children of Sheth or Seth and in verse 19 out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city. We know for sure this did not apply to the first coming because Christ did not destroy anyone but he did threaten destruction on his enemies at the second coming which would be the last days.

I have a real good bible study on the ships of Chittim but it is long and drawn out. Suffice to say that these same war ships are in Dan. chap. 11 as well.

 

[fozzy]

Well I don't think the verse is saying that Nebuchadnezzar will live in the last days, doesn't it say that God will show him what will happen in the latter days? In other words God gave Nebuchadnezzar this dream to reveal to him what will happen in the future. Like pharaoh had the same sort of dream, and it was pointed out that there will come seven years of plenty and seven years of famine, so the dream that pharoh was given was given to show the future events, it could be possible to read these verses in Daniel this way.

So if in fact Nebuchadnezzar is infact representing this head of Gold, is it also true that belshassar was also representing this head of Gold, since Babylon was represented as Gold. If then Nebuchadnezzar was the head, who then are the chest and arms and the brass and the iron?

Numbers 24:14-17 the use of the phrase "latter days" is refrencing the time when Jesus comes to the earth, and make the ultimate sacrifice. If the "latter days" is in refrence to the last days then Jesus has yet to make this sacrifice for us, and we should still be keeping the law, doing the ceremonial services, and a whole plethora of other complications arise, so in my thinking, although "latter days" can mean last days, if we apply it to the dream, then again we have complications as you have just stated, that if it is so why is it that Nebuchadnezzar is not alive now. So I think latter days, could mean something other than the last days in this context.

This is correct that God did say he would show the king what would happen in the latter days and then he is identified as the head of Gold. Interestingly he finds out that his head of gold is destroyed by the stone and doesn’t seem too upset about it. In verse 44 it says and I am paraphrasing in the days of these kings (plural) the God of heaven will set up a kingdom and it will break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms and then they are mentioned – iron, brass, clay, silver and gold. So all the kings or kingdoms will be around at the end when the stone strikes the feet implying these are endtime kings or kingdoms.

If Babylon were not mentioned in Revelation then I would say yes there is no way that Nebuchadnezzar could be anything other than Nebuchadnezzar. But in Revelation we have a great city called Babylon that has fallen presumably from grace and everyone is commanded to come out of her. The mark and image of the beast are also directly tied to this fallen city of Babylon. When we add this to the information from Isaiah chap. 14 where Satan is identified as the king of Babylon we begin to see who the real king of Babylon is.

One angel killed 185,000 Assyrian troops in one night in 2kings 19:35. This is just a small taste of what is coming. Most think that modern armies with nuclear weapons are the most powerful thing on the battlefield but this is wrong. In Daniel 11 there is battle after battle between the king of the north and south and they use swords and horses and chariots so this is always seen as taking place in the past. But many forget that when Elijah was taken to heaven he was picked up by chariots of fire and horses of fire that flew like a whirlwind so the angels still use this mode of transportation. The battles and wars of Daniel 11 may not have taken place in the past at all.

 

[Highway2heaven]

Would you be able to explain to me how satan represents Babylon in Isaiah 14? Not quite sure I see the connection.

 

[Highway2heaven]

In revelation 14:8, says that "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" but if Satan has fallen why would people be called out of him?

Revelation 16:19 when Babylon is remembered, men are destroyed, why is that? Doesn't seem like a very just God if he remembers satan and men are destroyed.

If Satan is represented as Babylon, how do we interpret revelation 17, woman that sits on the beast, heads etc..?

Revelation 18:2 how does Babylon (satan) become the habitation of Devils? And if it is the nature of his government and character, what was he before? ( in refrence to Babylon becoming the habitation of Devils.)

Revelation 18:10 not sure how I tie in satan with babylon, in refrence to how the merchants react.

Revelation 18:17-24 same as above?(revelation 18:10)

 

[Highway2heaven]

In revelation 14:8, says that "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" but if Satan has fallen why would people be called out of him?

Revelation 16:19 when Babylon is remembered, men are destroyed, why is that? Doesn't seem like a very just God if he remembers satan and men are destroyed.

If Satan is represented as Babylon, how do we interpret revelation 17, woman that sits on the beast, heads etc..?

Revelation 18:2 how does Babylon (satan) become the habitation of Devils? And if it is the nature of his government and character, what was he before? ( in refrence to Babylon becoming the habitation of Devils.)

Revelation 18:10 not sure how I tie in satan with babylon, in refrence to how the merchants react.

Revelation 18:17-24 same as above?(revelation 18:10)

 

[fozzy]

This is starting to get off topic. We should probably start a new thread if you want to continue on with the beasts and bears.

I said that Satan is the king of Babylon not the city or kingdom of Babylon. In Revelation the harlot who is called Babylon is identified as a great city so she is different than Satan. Satan is said to be the dragon with seven heads and ten horns which represent seven religious powers and ten secular powers that will unite at the very end to rule the world. The woman rides this beast so she will be the capital city over this coalition of evil.

In Isa. 14 the king of Babylon is being discussed and as we go thru this description of him he is called Lucifer or the son of the morning who wants to ascend into heaven and exalt his throne above the stars of God and be like the most High. So this is where I get the identification of Satan as the king of Babylon. Also if we go to Ezekiel 28 the king of Tyre is being discussed and once again the description turns to the anointed cherub who was in Eden and on holy mountain of God. So we see that Satan is referred to as both the king of Babylon and the king of Tyre in the scriptures.

The description of Babylon in Revelation is one of a seafaring or maritime city that would not really apply to the ancient city of Babylon but it would apply to the ancient city of Tyre that was renowned for its merchant ships and accumulation of wealth. Satan will physically set up his kingdom on earth in the last days and his throne or capital city will be spiritually called Babylon. This city will have characteristics in common with many ancient cities most notably Babylon and Tyre and Egypt and Sodom and Jerusalem.