Can The Dead Talk Back to Us?

[Bryan519]

"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, that ye cast gauntlets before antagonists, and challenge them to speak with demon oppressed souls."???

Nope, don't remember that one.

This part of the forum is for outreach, not confrontation.

Catherine, I haven't asked him to speak to demons or demon-oppressed souls. I asked him to investigate and gather evidence. He is the one who asked the question as to whether there is an existence after life in the way of spirits. He is demanding proof. I offered a method by which he can obtain proof, but I doubt very seriously he will follow up on that, because if he were to acquire evidence that indeed there is an indication that spirits exist he would be thrust into a paradigm shift and be forced to reconsider everything he thinks to be true. He is not a truth-seeker, he is an antagonist. This is becoming more and more evident.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make in another post. He is not posting to ask questions he's posting to be confrontational.

 

[Bryan519]

If this were actually true, we would not be able to discuss eschatology at all. The fact that we can have such discussions would seem to rather refute your point.

As long as we bear in mind that we only see through a glass darkly, we can indeed talk about what we see through that glass. And we can also talk of what Our Lord told us is on the other side of that glass.

And for the scientifically minded, we can ask, what of dark matter? That which fills the universe, and has to be there to account for lots of inexplicable stuff, but which cannot be seen or recorded, only deduced?

How is believing in dark matter, not to mention black holes etc, not exactly parallel to believing in God? We all believe in something, so why be surprised that some of us happen to believe, inter alia, in God?

Sure, you can discuss and theorize all you want, but no one knows for sure what is like to be pure spirit until you're dead.

 

[Angeloffire]

I thought it might be of interest to all of you that electronic removal of demons has been successful and is being patented as we speak. I cannot get into details as it is confidential.

Also that the bible does say that the unclean spirits will be removed from the land. God will someday remove them.

 

[franklin]

Franklin,
The supernatural isn't something science quite understands yet although some steps are being taken to study it. I don't know that demons are necessarily outside time the way that God is.

How could God be outside of time and be able to intervene in human history at the same time? I guess it's because He is God Almighty and He can do anything He desires right? Did I just answer my own question?

I had questioned the supernatural as well until the day that I saw objects move on their own, heard disembodied voices, and my wife saw an apparition. I have no idea what these things were, but they certainly couldn't be explained by natural law. I understand your skepticism. I'm just a guy prfessing to have some kind of supernatural experience and you have no idea whether I'm schitzophrenic, delusional, or on LSD, although I would tell you that I'm none of these things - someone's testimony on an internet forum isn't evidence.

If someone's testimony isn't good enough for evidence, then what is? I always thought a persons testimony was based on truth? What about someones testimony who has accept Jesus as their personal savior?

If you are really interested in learning and studying the supernatural to verify the veracity of such claims, maybe try finding a paranormal group in your area and go on some investigations. It might change your mind, or you might be able to add some balance and come up with some logical explanations for some of the phenomena that one experiences on such investigations. You're in Texas, right? I'm in Austin, I'd be happy to connect you with some of the paranormal groups in the area if you are truly searching for the truth.

Yea Im interesting in learning about the supernatural but just how is it at all possible to study something like that, that is beyond human nature? Kind of like the dead (living on the other side) speaking to us or watching us?

Yea, go ahead, send me a pm with the guy's email address so I can get in touch with him.

I'm always interested in the truth. Just as long as it conforms to reality otherwise it's not truth at all. If faith and belief only is demanded, then it's not true and should be questioned and eventually ignored as just fiction and even a lie. Get the picture?

 

[Bryan519]

How could God be outside of time and be able to intervene in human history at the same time? I guess it's because He is God Almighty and He can do anything He desires right? Did I just answer my own question?

If someone's testimony isn't good enough for evidence, then what is? I always thought a persons testimony was based on truth? What about someones testimony who has accept Jesus as their personal savior?



Yea Im interesting in learning about the supernatural but just how is it at all possible to study something like that, that is beyond human nature? Kind of like the dead (living on the other side) speaking to us or watching us?

Yea, go ahead, send me a pm with the guy's email address so I can get in touch with him.

I'm always interested in the truth. Just as long as it conforms to reality otherwise it's not truth at all. If faith and belief only is demanded, then it's not true and should be questioned and eventually ignored as just fiction and even a lie. Get the picture?

Franklin, I understand the questions atheists pose. I find myself asking those same questions. It's not the fact that you guys don't believe that bothers me - it's the outright arrogance that sometimes comes across in your (your meaning atheist in general) message. As far as to proving God exists, I'm one of those christians who will tell you that god can not be proven, at least not be scientific means or by critical thinking. The problem as I see it, is the limits by which atheism restricts its followers' perception of reality. There are phenomena, experiences, things...whatever you want to call it, that can not, at this time, be explained by any known rationale. I know because I've experienced it. I've witnessed the very laws of physics defied before my very eyes. Does that prove God exists? No, but if your basing your disbelief on what you think to be true as defined by natural laws, I believe you are short-sighted. Understandibly so if you have never witnessed such.

My point being, open minds are more succeptible to enlightenment than that of arrogance. If you are serious about learning more I will pm the contacts I have for Texas. You'll just have to pm your specific area.

Let me make this clear one more time so that my intentions are not misunderstood. I do not hate atheist, in fact I admire their quest for truth if that is in fact what they are after. However I despise arrogance.

Thanks for being open-minded about this.

 

[Jon0388g]

If Christians believe in living after they die, then does that mean dead people can talk to us or maybe they are even watching us?

Well why not? If they are alive and well in the afterlife, then why can't they talk to us and visa versa?

I think it's a perfectly legitimate question.

Some might think it's a silly question but if the afterlife does literally exist then why wouldn't it be possible to communicate with dead loved ones? (Well not really dead but now living in invisible form on the other side.)

If you can't communicate with them, then that should solve the entire theory/belief of life after death once and for all.

It does not exist.

Your correct twice franklin: it is a very legitimate question, and no, it does not exist.


The Bible says there is no communication between the dead and the living. However, Lucifer is a very real being, and he will do all in his power to deceive humans into false belief systems to obey his purposes: even by masquerading as deceased loved ones.


In a nutshell: the Bible teaches the dead have no consciousness whatsoever in the grave: they are now in a temporary 'sleep' until being resurrected either at Christ's second coming and taken to heaven, or resurrected at His third coming to judgment and death. There really are no such thing as 'ghosts'!



Could I ask you a question: in dealing with atheists who asks questions about Christians and their beliefs, do you feel comfortable with us giving answers directly from the Bible? I'm never sure as to how to address these discussions



Jon

 

[AmandaBear]

Well...I'm not exactly sure about the existence of ghosts. I mean...I guess it's possible. At the old house I used to live in, my mom's bedroom was in a room where a guy had killed himself a long time ago and she told me that she can vividly remember sitting at her desk and feeling someone breathing cold air down her neck. O.O She also could've sworn someone kept whispering her name. xD

 

[Bryan519]

The Bible says there is no communication between the dead and the living. However, Lucifer is a very real being, and he will do all in his power to deceive humans into false belief systems to obey his purposes: even by masquerading as deceased loved ones.


In a nutshell: the Bible teaches the dead have no consciousness whatsoever in the grave: they are now in a temporary 'sleep' until being resurrected either at Christ's second coming and taken to heaven, or resurrected at His third coming to judgment and death. There really are no such thing as 'ghosts'!

Really? Scriptual source please.

 

[Jon0388g]

Really? Scriptual source please.

Hi Bryan!

Here's one:

"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:1-2


More?



Jon

 

[Catherineanne]

He is not a truth-seeker, he is an antagonist. This is becoming more and more evident.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make in another post. He is not posting to ask questions he's posting to be confrontational.

What I have found is that the sin we recognise most clearly in the other is the one most besetting our own heart.

In psychological terms this is called projection. In Christian terms it is described as seeing a speck of wood in someone else's eye.

 

[Catherineanne]

Sure, you can discuss and theorize all you want, but no one knows for sure what is like to be pure spirit until you're dead.

What is all this obsession with being dead?

Christians do not die, they go to the arms of God, in eternity. God is not subject to, nor constrained by, time.

As I have already said, anyone who thinks that we sleep for a thousand, or ten thousand, or a million years first, has to believe God to be subject to time, which is not any part of Christian faith. Never has been, and I hope never will be. God created time, just as he created everything else. The theory of soul sleep necessarily results in a God less than the God of Abraham, Moses and Christ.

 

[Bryan519]

What is all this obsession with being dead?

Christians do not die, they go to the arms of God, in eternity. God is not subject to, nor constrained by, time.

As I have already said, anyone who thinks that we sleep for a thousand, or ten thousand, or a million years first, has to believe God to be subject to time, which is not any part of Christian faith. Never has been, and I hope never will be. God created time, just as he created everything else. The theory of soul sleep necessarily results in a God less than the God of Abraham, Moses and Christ.

Catherine, There is no obsession for the dead. I believe Franklin's purpose in asking is because as stated in his OP he believes that if there is proof of an afterlife then there is proof of God. I actually disagree with that statement, but basically I believe that whether you believe in God or not, the supernatural does exist and there is evidence of such that is obtainable in this life.

As for your discussion on time, yes I also believe hat God is outside time, but in thinking of what this means for us we have to try to understand it on a linear level. This is what I was talking about in my other post which you misunderstood. As humans and bound to a physical world it is difficult for us to comprehend the aspects of the spiritual world especially as it pertains to God. So we tend to relate it to what we know - time.

And there are contrary theories out there as to whether a sould goes straight to the arms of God or if there is perhaps some time spent in purgatory, etc. So while I understand your point, others may disagree.

I don't claim to know the answers, that's why I chose to go out into the field and study for myself rather than to sit behind a keyboard and theorize.

 

[Bryan519]

What I have found is that the sin we recognise most clearly in the other is the one most besetting our own heart.

In psychological terms this is called projection. In Christian terms it is described as seeing a speck of wood in someone else's eye.

Oh please Catherine. I never judged him and I didn't call him a sinner. I don't play those games. It's those type of games that create atheists in the first place. I am standing up in the face of what I viewed to be a schoolyard bully. Atheists tend to come into our playground under the guise of wanting to "play" then flex their intellectual muscles and start pushing people around. I have simply stood up and challenged them for it. Don't start making me out to be one of these fire and brimstone bible thumpers who preach "God Hates the Sinner!"

 

[Bryan519]

Hi Bryan!

Here's one:

"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:1-2


More?



Jon

Thanks Jon. I wasn't aware of that one. Yes I would like more verses if you have them off the top of your head.
Thanks.

 

[seashale76]

There are two pages of debate where such shouldn't exist. This is a board where unbelievers are to ask questions and then those who consider themselves Christians can attempt to answer them. If this generates more questions by the non-Christians, then fine. However, this is not an apologetics board. Christians who disagree drastically in their theology really aren't supposed to have a go at each other, and the non-Christians really aren't supposed to engage in debate either. One doesn't have to like the answers to their questions or the answers others who claim to have the same faith as they do give. Be clever, non-Christians, ask more questions, but don't debate. Christians just need to try to ignore each other's posts. It's hard, I know, as I disagree theologically with just about everyone here. One might think some of us aren't of the same faith or something.

And, yes, I reported some posts. I'll fess up to it.

 

[Jon0388g]

Thanks Jon. I wasn't aware of that one. Yes I would like more verses if you have them off the top of your head.
Thanks.

Sure thing.


"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." Revelation 20:4-6


When coupled with the verse from Daniel, we see that at the second coming of Christ, only the righteous dead are resurrected and taken up to heaven; this is the first resurrection. Recall, only those found "written in the book" will be rescued (Dan 12:1). The second resurrection is that of the wicked. They are then cast into the lake of fire after the 1000 year reign of the saints.


Check out this prophecy from the book of Isaiah:

"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." Isaiah 26:19


The Bible seems to say only at the first resurrection are the righteous reconciled with their God, and our God, since again in Isaiah:


"For Sheol cannot thank You, death cannot praise You; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness. It is the living who give thanks to You, as I do today; a father tells his sons about Your faithfulness." Isaiah 38:18. Praise Him! Bible truth is unmistakeable!



More?




Jon

 

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