Can someone be a ____ and still a Christian?

Randy_R

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You REALLY need to study economics Randy. The state 'taxinig' business will do one of two things. The first is what I explained which is passing the cost of the taxes to the consumer (whcih causes inflation) OR, since you don't like that and blame the capitalist and not the politicians who create that tax, they can refrain from passing the cost of the tax and pay it themselves in full but what do you think happens then? Less investment in the tools the business needs to remain competitive or less investment in workers and their compensation. Either way, the greed of the state hurts the people be they consumers or the employees.

Besides, the moral purpose of government is to secure the blessings of liberty and that can be fully funded without taxing income or business.

The purpose of capitalism is to keep the elite in power at the expense of the workers. The top 1% has a larger share of the wealth than at any time in our history. The middle class is vanishing and the disparity between the rich and the poor has never been greater.

In France that led to a violent revolution. A similar revolution was preempted in England through the preaching of the Gospel. That probably won't happen here because much of the churches are filled with fascists who think God is a Republican and consider the tea party movement to virtually be a Christian revival.
 
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BondiHarry

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The purpose of capitalism is to keep the elite in power at the expense of the workers. The top 1% has a larger share of the wealth than at any time in our history. The middle class is vanishing and the disparity between the rich and the poor has never been greater.

In France that led to a violent revolution. A similar revolution was preempted in England through the preaching of the Gospel. That probably won't happen here because much of the churches are filled with fascists who think God is a Republican and consider the tea party movement to virtually be a Christian revival.

Randy, what you are calling 'capitalism' isn't capitalism but a mixed economy where established interests have government protection from competition. Remove that protection and allow free competition and what you are describing here does not happen so please put the blame where it belongs. Please embrace a rational political spectrum. Fascism is a statist system that belongs on the same end of the political spectrum with communism, socialism, Baathism and all other systems where the state is the master of the people and not the servant (ie fulfilling the only moral purpose of government which is protecting the God given rights of the people) and has nothing to do with God, the political right in America or the tea party.

It would be far more accurate to say that the purpose of STATISM is to keep the elite in power at the expense of other men. True capitalism liberates men and is much more in line with the word of God than the sort of mythical benign authoritarian government system you seem to advocate.

God is holy, has explained in great detail what holiness looks like in the Bible and all men need to appreciate that fact. Statism crushes the liberty that God wishes men to have, is not based on reason, Godly morality or justice but on brute power and such power attracts brutes Randy. I suggest you contemplate Romans 13:9 because what you seem to be advocating conflicts with God's clear word that we should love our neighbor and obey Him.
 
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Randy_R

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Randy, what you are calling 'capitalism' isn't capitalism but a mixed economy where established interests have government protection from competition. Remove that protection and allow free competition and what you are describing here does not happen so please put the blame where it belongs. Please embrace a rational political spectrum. Fascism is a statist system that belongs on the same end of the political spectrum with communism, socialism, Baathism and all other systems where the state is the master of the people and not the servant (ie fulfilling the only moral purpose of government which is protecting the God given rights of the people) and has nothing to do with God, the political right in America or the tea party.

It would be far more accurate to say that the purpose of STATISM is to keep the elite in power at the expense of other men. True capitalism liberates men and is much more in line with the word of God than the sort of mythical benign authoritarian government system you seem to advocate.

God is holy, has explained in great detail what holiness looks like in the Bible and all men need to appreciate that fact. Statism crushes the liberty that God wishes men to have, is not based on reason, Godly morality or justice but on brute power and such power attracts brutes Randy. I suggest you contemplate Romans 13:9 because what you seem to be advocating conflicts with God's clear word that we should love our neighbor and obey Him.

Go ahead and worship your exploitive system. Maybe if you worship it hard enough it won't collapse for a few more years.
 
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BondiHarry

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Randy, I worship God and not any system of men. God tells us not to put our trust in government or men and considering how badly ALL statist systems and economic systems where theft is a fundamental premise have failed us you might want to consider He is right and remove your trust in things not of God. Attempts at exploitation are possible in even the freest of nations and markets but it is when you enable men to lawfully (by their law and not God's) to use force to take the property of other men arbitrarily and without fair compensation that REALLY throws a wrench into the works. But not to worry Randy, God is letting man create and worship his idols and actually see where man's wisdom takes him. A crash will come and men will reap what they have sown. The thing you should worry about is that this is not going to be just another repeat of the hisorical busts of the past but the actual end time being experienced.
 
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LBP

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You REALLY need to study economics Randy.

I don't know about Randy, but I was an antitrust lawyer for a Fortune 100 company for a number of years and know a little bit about economics. It appears to me that you may be confusing God with Rush Limbaugh in formulating your views. The following is from an excellent overview, Christian Economics:

"The bottom line is that capitalism is based on practices prohibited by the Bible and banned by the church for 1500 years. Capitalism, without appropriate socialist add-ons always magnifies the grotesque gap between rich and poor. This results in a small percentage of rich people with little chance for salvation and great suffering for the poor whom God loves. Theologically, capitalism is inconsistent with the teaching and example of Jesus and is opposed to the Gospel and the basic tenets of Christianity. What’s more, capitalism doesn’t work — at least not for the majority of people. Capitalism as a system is dependent on consumerism and is therefore highly destructive of spiritual values. Capitalism without strong government controls leads to corporate tyranny and is antithetical to democracy, freedom, and human rights. Capitalist interests have led to the slaughter of millions of peasants and ordinary people (many of them Christians) in banana republics and "Third World" countries around the globe. This slaughter has been carried out by our sons and daughters at the direction of U.S. administrations beholden to The United Fruit Company, Exxon, Chiquita Banana, Domino Sugar, the Chase Manhattan Bank, and other corporate interests. To our great shame, we in America have been the "Evil Empire" and have forcefully prevented God’s people in other countries from attaining freedom, peace, democracy, or economic justice. Our idolatrous worship of capitalism and the almighty dollar and our misguided patriotism have turned us against God and his people. If we do not gain control of the beast we have unleashed, it will inevitably turn on us (as it has already begun to do). If we do not gain control of the "private, autocratic powers," and the "blind economic forces and blindly selfish men" identified by FDR, they will devour us just as surely as they devoured the Christian base communities of Nicaragua, the Jesuit priests and Maryknoll sisters in El Salvador, and the indigenous people of Chiapas, Mexico."
 
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sealacamp

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Capitalism, without appropriate socialist add-ons always magnifies the grotesque gap between rich and poor.

Well that my friend is socialist hog wash and it absolutely false. Socialism is the one that magnifies class, gender, race. So read this and get back to us when you have digested it.

Amazon.com: The Politically Incorrect Guide to Capitalism (Politically Incorrect Guides): Robert P. Murphy: Books

Try this one next.

Amazon.com: The Politically Incorrect Guide to Socialism (Politically Incorrect Guides) (9781596986497): Kevin D Williamson: Books

And remember the truth will set you free. Right now you are bound into your opinion which strays from the truth. Of course the ultimate truth is Jesus Christ so start there and then venture forth.

Sealacamp
 
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BondiHarry

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LBP, did you notice your "excellent overview: Christian Economics" didn't bother to quote the Bible at all? Of course it wouldn't because the Bible gives government NO AUTHORITY to regulate the economic activities of men, tells us point blank not to put our trust in government (as I've already pointed out from Psalm 146) and one cannot reconcile the statist economic models with what God tells us about a man being able to enjoy the bread of his labor, he who does not work neither shall he eat, the protection of private property, thou shall not steal, thou shall not covet, that a man who does not care for his family is worse than a reprobate and that a man should plan on leaving an inheritance.

You've made the same mistake Randy has in calling a mixed economy 'capitalism' and then denouncing it not for the failures of a free market but for the failures caused by government intervention into the economy.
 
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sealacamp

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You've made the same mistake Randy has in calling a mixed economy 'capitalism' and then denouncing it not for the failures of a free market but for the failures caused by government intervention into the economy.


:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Thus the error has been established and perpetuated. Capitalism in its purest form allows for every person to have the same opportunity. Frankly I don't even understand what the envy issue is with people that become wealthy. I would like to see everyone become well off but no one can get there with out hard work and dedication to their goal. The reality is that in this life there are many people that have no desire to rise above mediocrity and become much of anything, which is why Solomon spoke so much about lazy people (refer to Proverbs and Ecclesiastes). As Lincoln so eloquently put it:

You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away men's initiative and independence.
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves."
— Abraham Lincoln

And that is why socialism has been a dismal failure where ever it has been employed along with its cousins, communism, Marxism, and leftism. There has never been a better system for individual progress and freedom than capitalism. Unfortunately so very many people have a skewed and covetous view of reality that they can't see the truth.

Sealacamp
 
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LBP

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LBP, did you notice your "excellent overview: Christian Economics" didn't bother to quote the Bible at all?

I "noticed" that it quoted and referenced the Bible extensively (see below). Perhaps we are "noticing" that you don't bother to inform yourself before speaking because you are caught up in the goofy single-mindedness of the true fanatic.

You've made the same mistake Randy has in calling a mixed economy 'capitalism' and then denouncing it not for the failures of a free market but for the failures caused by government intervention into the economy.

A Biblically-informed fanatic, as opposed to one who is more devoted to the Gospel of Limbaugh, would realize that the failures of all economic systems are caused by human nature, not by "government intervention."

From Christian Economics, lest anyone think I am hallucinating:

It wasn’t always thus. For most of its 2,000 year history, Christianity not only frowned on capitalism, but banned it outright. Capitalism is making money with money. Interest, capital gains, investment income — everything we call "unearned income" — these are the lifeblood of capitalism. But until fairly recently, they were all banned by the Christian churches. Even buying and selling at a profit was proscribed. It was unthinkable for a Christian to be a businessman.

This Christian view of economics is grounded in the Bible. The law against charging interest goes back to Exodus 22: 24-25, "If you lend money to one of your poor neighbors among my people, you shall not act like an extortioner toward him by demanding interest from him." This prohibition is repeated 22 times in the Old Testament. Proverbs 28:8 says, "He who increases his wealth by interest and overcharge amasses it for someone else who will bestow it on the poor." Psalm 15 says, "Yahweh, who can find a home in your tent, who can dwell on your holy mountain? Whoever lives blamelessly, who acts uprightly, who speaks the truth from the heart, ... who asks no interest on loans, who takes no bribe to harm the innocent. No one who so acts can ever be shaken."

Deuteronomy 15:1-11 orders the cancellation of all debts at the end of every seventh year. And it cautions against refusing to lend to one in need because this time is near. So your loan will never be repaid to you. So what? The Lord will take care of you. But if you refuse one in need, the Lord will hold you "guilty of sin." "I command you to open your hand to your countrymen who are poor and needy."
Deuteronomy 24: 19-21 establishes gleaners rights for "the alien, the fatherless, and the widow."

The New Testament also has some things to say about economics. Most of them should be profoundly troubling to the wealthy. James 5:1, for example, says, "Next a word to you who are rich. Weep and wail over the miserable fate overtaking you: your riches ... will be evidence against you and consume your flesh like fire. ... You have lived on the land in wanton luxury, gorging yourselves — and on the day appointed for your slaughter."

Jesus himself had much to say on the subject. Perhaps the most famous is Matthew 19: 21-24: "If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me. ... Amen, I say to you, it will be hard for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

The early Christians took these sayings very seriously. The first century Didache said, "Do not claim that anything is your own." Around the year 200, Clement of Alexandria said, "All possessions are by nature unrighteous; when one possesses them for personal advantage and does not bring them into the common stock for those in need." Basil the Great, about 400 A.D., said "That bread which you keep belongs to the hungry; that coat in your closet, to the naked." St. Augustine said, "Business is in itself an evil." Jerome, who disagreed with Augustine on many things, did not on this. He said, "A man who is a merchant can seldom if ever please God." St. John Chrysostom put it this way, "How did you become rich? Can you show the acquisition just? It cannot be. The root and origin of it must have been injustice."
 
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LBP

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Thus the error has been established and perpetuated. Capitalism in its purest form allows for every person to have the same opportunity. Frankly I don't even understand what the envy issue is with people that become wealthy. I would like to see everyone become well off but no one can get there with out hard work and dedication to their goal. The reality is that in this life there are many people that have no desire to rise above mediocrity and become much of anything, which is why Solomon spoke so much about lazy people (refer to Proverbs and Ecclesiastes). As Lincoln so eloquently put it:

I need to find some of whatever drug you're on, Truth Seeker, because it has truly put you in a la-la land where reality does not intrude. Oh, yes, I firmly believe (NOT) that the vast disparities in America and other capitalistic societies are due almost entirely to the fact that those who are struggling are "lazy" sorts who have no desire to "rise above mediocrity and become much of anything." Oh, yes, I firmly believe (NOT) that those who have achieved material success uniformly did so through "hard work and dedication to their goals." Oh, yes, I firmly believe (NOT) that humanity stands on the threshold of extinction because the unsustainable "American way of life" is the "best system for individual progress and freedom" ever devised. I happen to be quite successful in material terms, so I am hardly "envious" or "covetous" of others who have achieved your "skewed" and narrow view of what constitutes success in life; I just happen to be enlightened enough to realize that this is not at all what Jesus was talking about and that He is almost surely looking at those who equate Christianity with capitalism with complete disgust.
 
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BondiHarry

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LBP, I was referring to what you quoted and not the few passages that were cited in the link without regard to context. A more thorough reading of the Bible on your part might have led you to realize things like the rich young lord loved his money more than he loved God yet in 1 Corinthians 13:3 it is clear that one could bestow all ones' goods to the poor yet if they have not charity (love) it avails them nothing. We could also discuss the jubilee because what the author of that article did was misreprsent what it actually did (and of course, the jubilee like all the other old testament laws does not apply to the Christian under grace).

Do you know what it means to 'love' your neighbor as yourself (and contemplate that, it doesn't just say love but love as yourself)? Romans 13:9 ... "For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." This is not possible when you institutionalize theft by government proxy.

It should pain you that Rush Limbaugh is closer to the Biblical truth than Marx or Keynes or Obama. Fallen men will muck up even the best of systems but fallen men coupled to the power of govenment unrestrained by morality and God's word have created the greatest horrors in man's long and bloody history. Again, what you condemn capitalism for is not due to a flaw in free markets but to the coercive intervention of government.

Call me a fanatic if you like, I would rather cling to God's truth and be condemned by the world than be loved by the world and be condemned by God.
 
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LBP

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It should pain you that Rush Limbaugh is closer to the Biblical truth than Marx or Keynes or Obama.

Oh, dear, I thought I had trotted out goofy old Rush just to make an exaggerated point, but I find that I actually am dealing with someone who worships at the Altar of Rush! Too funny! Discussion over ... when people start citing Rush Limbaugh as though he were anything other than an embarrassment to humanity, I find we don't have too much to discuss. Yep, I feel pretty sure that Rush Limbaugh was exactly what Jesus was hoping the Gospel would produce; in fact, I feel pretty sure Rush would have been selected as one of the 12 Apostles if he'd been around at the time. Or maybe not.
 
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Randy_R

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Wow, lot of Rush haters in here. For that matter a lot of people who are supporting of Marxist ideologies.

I think maybe the forum should be renamed.

There's nothing in the stated purpose of the forum that specifically says it's limited to POLITICAL conservatives. They show mostly a RELIGIOUS conservative viewpoint.

Conservative Christians - a forum for all Conservative Christians to discuss and fellowship.



A few things to know about us:

1. The Holy Scriptures are the inspired, written Word of God. The revelation of Scripture is completely reliable, inerrant and authoritative. Some conservative Christians also hold church tradition to be a source of authority.
2 Timothy 3:16

2. Human life is sacred from conception to death, though some conservative Christians accept that the death penalty is justified, by judicial process, in capital or other grave cases.
Exodus 20:13

3. We believe that the Nicene Creed is an accurate description of the nature of God.

4.We believe in the literal authenticity of Christ's miracles, and the historical accuracy of events described in the Bible.
Acts 2:22

5. We believe in the judgment of God, and in a literal Heaven and Hell.
Acts 10:42 ; Mark 16:19 ; Luke 12:5

6. We have a traditional Christian view of morality. We oppose sexual activity outside a traditional marriage between one man and one woman, abortion on demand and euthanasia.
Genesis 2:24 ; Psalm 51:5
 
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tworle00

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There's nothing in the stated purpose of the forum that specifically says it's limited to POLITICAL conservatives. They show mostly a RELIGIOUS conservative viewpoint.

Gotcha, sorry about that. I misunderstood on that very point. Thanks.

Is their a forum on here specifically for political conservative Christians?
 
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TheOutlander

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Ok. I recognize this is for conservative christians, which is arguably the opposite of what I currently am. But I have a few issues which you could answer for me, naturally I can understand your faith and your views on euthanasia and abortion, which arguably shouldn't necessarily be restricted to the conservative camp (I'm not saying I agree with the view on abortion, but I certainly do on euthanasia).

However, it is rather the conservative Christian view that Christian right = Libertarianism. Now, as a way of thinking, I see Libertarianism as those who are the best connected, most charismatic or most mathematically proficient profiting the most from the economy, which I suppose as an atheistic materialistic view (which again, I don't agree with) is fine. However, Christianity has its roots in the idea of loving your neighbor (or so most would argue, I guess Muslims fighting the crusaders or people in the Spanish inquisition would say otherwise, but I think today those would be the exception rather than the rule).

Therefore, my question is simple; why is the Christian right so staunchly anti-socialist? If the bible spoke of Jesus feeding the five thousand and then charging them for their food, that would be libertarian, rather than socialist. However, as their leader, he supported them and fed them, he healed the sick and helped the needy, all without desire for personal gain.

So my idea is simple, why are Christian Right Wingers so against building up support through the government for those less fortunate? Sure, there is the 'get a job' ethic which is something I completely agree with, as a student, I'm working through virtually 70% of my free time to try and pay off the massive debts I would otherwise have at university and I definitely think others in the same situation as me should be doing the same. However, I recognize there are a number of people who simply can't work, and finding a job without connections in the current economic climate is hard. Surely things like healthcare should be a fundamental human right.

Now before you start shouting 'socialist!' I am not supporting pan-nationalization of industry as defined by the communist manifesto or any number of communist movements (which I think the USSR proved could have awful consequences). But as a resident of the UK, I find the idea of a National Health Service (without which, as someone from a fairly poor background, I would have died at the age of 8) fundamentally right. The idea of equal opportunity in health, education and freedom of information through a government framework sets the standard. Now in the UK we have a nationalized media company which is arguably the most respected worldwide (the BBC), which is also seen as one of the most free sources of information, alongside that, naturally, we have some just as large television and news corporations which are private owned, which provide competition needed for stimulation.

We have the NHS, and we have private health companies like BUPA. My question therefore, could be summarized as follows: Do you, as a member of the Christian conservative movement, see the creation of a welfare framework as a good idea, whilst also maintaining the values of healthy competition alongside that framework? Do you see the merit in the government setting a minimum standard in vital fields like healthcare, and the private sector building on that?
 
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tworle00

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Therefore, my question is simple; why is the Christian right so staunchly anti-socialist?

I can't speak for every conservative Christian, but for me here is how it works out...

It is the Church's job to take care of those in need. Jesus did things like heal the sick and feed the 4K and 5K not the Roman government. In fact Jesus didn't direct people to Rome for help and neither did the disciples. They were directed to Jesus.

The question is, whose responsibility is it to take care of the needy in our societies?

The conservative Christian would say "mine". Not by forcing others to give nor by creating a theocracy. Basically "So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver" (2 Corinthians 9:7) The conservative Christian respects the will of each member in society to freely choose if, when, who, or how they will help. A socialist structure of any sort that requires compulsory giving goes against our most basic beliefs in humans free will and the opportunity to do good by ones own accord.
 
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Phleboto

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Can someone be a Socialist, Communist, or Fascist and still be a Christian? I mean can they be intellectually compatible? To me it reasons that some political ideologies would not line up with Christian moral and practice.
No. I don't believe it's possible, naivete, ignorance, etc. aside. They are simply not intellectually, philosophically, or morally compatible.

Moreover, I'll go so far as to assert that socialism, marxism, communism, progressivism, liberalism are all philosophies in the spirit of antichrist.
 
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TheOutlander

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I can't speak for every conservative Christian, but for me here is how it works out...

It is the Church's job to take care of those in need. Jesus did things like heal the sick and feed the 4K and 5K not the Roman government. In fact Jesus didn't direct people to Rome for help and neither did the disciples. They were directed to Jesus.

The question is, whose responsibility is it to take care of the needy in our societies?

The conservative Christian would say "mine". Not by forcing others to give nor by creating a theocracy. Basically "So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver" (2 Corinthians 9:7) The conservative Christian respects the will of each member in society to freely choose if, when, who, or how they will help. A socialist structure of any sort that requires compulsory giving goes against our most basic beliefs in humans free will and the opportunity to do good by ones own accord.

The problem is one of the individual rather than the collective, myself, I believe that overall, organizations like the NHS help people and it should be the job of government (as well as churches and other organizations) to support the poor and needy. Surely it is better to have a government that provides help to those who need it than a government which doesn't tax and does nothing?

If humans are fundamentally evil (as is described as being the case since the fall), surely giving them the right to ignore poverty and providing no support is evil in itself too. Surely as a society, as fellow human beings, we have an obligation to provide help to those less fortunate than themselves, if someone wants to do this through charitable means, that's fine, but surely government programmes to support people can't be harmful?

Would you as a conservative Christian, for example, be adverse to the government using your tax money to fund new hospital facilities in low income areas?

Sure, taxpayers money goes to institutions which are arguably corrupt, and don't get me started on the military industrial complex the west has, but in things like better opportunities for the lowest of the poorest, can there really be an argument against taxation to improve things for them?

It strikes me as odd that libertarian is more darwinian in terms of thinking, and socialism is more pan-humanist. If I were a Christian (and otherwise) I would certainly be happy to pay tax for welfare.
 
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